Trinity

[komeeks18]

I’ve been taught about the Trinity my entire life, I understand it mostly and believe it, but it’s so confusing. I know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. But I don’t understand why if they’re all one why Jesus the Son would sit at the right hand of the Father. If they’re one why would the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be separate in Heaven if they’re all God and in unity? Please and thankful!

 

[Drinkgasoline]

Unfortunately the Trinity remains a mystery of our faith.

Unless any other members can enlighten us, I have yet to come across a conclusive philosophical argument in my readings of scholasticism and Christian philosophy.

 

[jsaldar]

The priest in my parish once said, “Back in the time of Christ, the Jews would say that seated at the right hand, meant sharing the power and authority of somebody” Therefore, by stating that He is seated at the right hand of God means that He has the power and authority of God. Thus, making himself known to us as God Himself.

 

[Gorgias]

Mind if I take a try at it?

Three things come to mind:

First, Jesus (the human) has a glorified body, whereas God (the Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are spirit. So, it would make sense that, in heaven, where God is immediately visible to us, the embodied Jesus might appear in a way distinct from the ‘spiritual’ Godhead. How? We’re not completely sure – that’s the part that’s a ‘mystery’.

On the other hand, we can look to Psalm 110 (and allusions to it in the Gospels) and ask what’s going on there. Originally, the psalmist sings to David: so the LORD (God) says to the (singer’s) Lord (i.e., David), “Sit at my right hand”. In the Gospel references, the evangelists apply this psalm to David (as the singer) and Jesus (as being spoken to by God the Father). Therefore, there’s a distinct thought being presented here: Jesus, the anticipated Messiah, is being told by God that Jesus will reign, but that he should take a place at God’s right hand (i.e., he should take a place of honor) until that time that God’s kingdom comes in its fullness.

Finally, since God is spirit, not flesh, the phrase “at God’s right hand” isn’t literal, but allegorical. God doesn’t have a hand, and it strains the imagination to think what it might mean if we tried to take it literally. Therefore, an interpretation that means “Jesus is in a place of honor alongside God” might be the best we can do with it.

Does that help…?

 

[komeeks18]

The priest in my parish once said, “Back in the time of Christ, the Jews would say that seated at the right hand, meant sharing the power and authority of somebody” Therefore, by stating that He is seated at the right hand of God means that He has the power and authority of God. Thus, making himself known to us as God Himself.

That makes sense! Thank you!

Mind if I take a try at it?

Three things come to mind:

First, Jesus (the human) has a glorified body, whereas God (the Trinity – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are spirit. So, it would make sense that, in heaven, where God is immediately visible to us, the embodied Jesus might appear in a way distinct from the ‘spiritual’ Godhead. How? We’re not completely sure – that’s the part that’s a ‘mystery’.

On the other hand, we can look to Psalm 110 (and allusions to it in the Gospels) and ask what’s going on there. Originally, the psalmist sings to David: so the LORD (God) says to the (singer’s) Lord (i.e., David), “Sit at my right hand”. In the Gospel references, the evangelists apply this psalm to David (as the singer) and Jesus (as being spoken to by God the Father). Therefore, there’s a distinct thought being presented here: Jesus, the anticipated Messiah, is being told by God that Jesus will reign, but that he should take a place at God’s right hand (i.e., he should take a place of honor) until that time that God’s kingdom comes in its fullness.

Finally, since God is spirit, not flesh, the phrase “at God’s right hand” isn’t literal, but allegorical. God doesn’t have a hand, and it strains the imagination to think what it might mean if we tried to take it literally. Therefore, an interpretation that means “Jesus is in a place of honor alongside God” might be the best we can do with it.

Does that help…?

Yes, that helps me a lot! I always forget about the flesh/spirit in Heaven. Thank you very much! I understand it so much better now!

 

[philial]

Sometimes one has to put to one side (briefly) the human personhood of Jesus, in order to dwell on God as He has known Himself eternally.

So, in the beginning there is God, one single Being who is All that exists. This God is self-aware - He knows Himself.

And God is Love. This Love, which is God, and not simple part of Him, is perfect, and seeks to give of itself to that which can receive it. But only God is capable to receiving the gift of Himself. So God becomes the giver of the gift of Himself, and He becomes the recipient of that same gift of Himself. This is the Eternal Dynamic of the life that is God, without a first or a last, but has always been.

The Father is that of God which gives of Himself. The Son is that of God which receives (and returns the gift) of Himself. The Holy Spirit is the gift which is given, received and returned.

The clue to God’s Eternl self is in Paul’s letter to the Philppians. He uses the term “kenosis” in reference to the Logos taking on the form of a servant. This “kenosis” means ‘self-emptying’, and in secular greek would be employed as in ’ to empty a bucket’. That is to say, a complete turning upside down and pouring out. Tracing this back, one can see that this can be applied, in the limitied manner of human reasoning, to the nature of God, in that He is a God who pours Himself out, not just at His Incarnation, but eternally.

To have seen the Son is to have seen the Father. We can begin to see that the Father pours Himself out to the Son, who responds by pouring Himself out to the Father, such is the action of self-gifting. That pouring out is the action we refer to as the Holy Spirit.

Refer the above to Creation, Redemption, Pentecost, the life of the Church… Bet it takes you 30 years of mulling over

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve been taught about the Trinity my entire life, I understand it mostly and believe it, but it’s so confusing. I know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. But I don’t understand why if they’re all one why Jesus the Son would sit at the right hand of the Father. If they’re one why would the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be separate in Heaven if they’re all God and in unity? Please and thankful!

Putting on my Christian and Catholic hat for the moment, I would say that this cannot mean in a literal sense that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father since G-d and heaven are outside of space and time. What it may mean is that Jesus “shares” co-equal power with the Father as a distinct, but not separate, Person of the Trinity. As I understand the Trinity, it means that G-d is distinct only in terms of His functions but not His essence or nature. However, any human analogy (whether that of the triangle, the flame, etc.) falls shorts of a complete explanation, or worse, according to Christian theology, approaches heresy.

 

[fred_conty]

A good treatment and explaination of the Trinity is

Theology and Sanity, by Frank Sheed.

And it treats many other catholic beliefs with wisdom.

Just a suggestion.

There are three divine persons in God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
They are distinct persons.
But there is only one God, not three.
They are distinct but not separate.
They are three in one.
Three persons in one God.

If they were separate, there would be three gods.
And if they were separate, there are other problems as well.

Becoming man he has a human soul, that is, an intellect and will.
But there is only one person of Jesus, the divine person.
There is no human person of Jesus, tho He became man.
He is both human and divine, but has only a divine person.
He is both God(of the Holy Spirit) and man(of Mary).

Frank Sheed makes all of the above come to life and mean something in his book.

 

[JimG]

The Persons of the Trinity are distinct persons but not distinct beings. God is one entity, one nature, one being. The Persons of the Trinity are not distinct beings in the way that human persons are also distinct beings from one another.

Think of it this way, (and I borrow from FJ Sheed here). God is one, all knowing, all-powerful spirit. He has the faculties of intellect and will. He can know, and he can love.

What does God know before creation?

Well, he knows himself.

He knows himself so perfectly that there is absolutely nothing lacking in his idea of himself. Everything that is in God is perfectly expressed in his idea, his knowing, of himself. Nothing is lacking, not even personhood. So that God’s knowing of himself generates a second Person, but not a second being. The Person of the Son is God the Father’s perfect self-knowing, expressed as a distinct person. But both Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) possess totally the one divine nature. They do not have different divine natures, nor do they “share” the divine nature, because sharing means each Person receives only part of it.

In the Trinity each Person totally and completely and wholly possesses the One divine nature. There is and can be only one.

Father and Son reach out to each other in love, and that love is so perfectly and infinitely expressed as an act of the divine will that it is itself a distinct Person–the Holy Spirit, who though a distinct person is not a distinct nature.

As to Jesus, he IS the Second Person of the Trinity, who, already having the divine nature, also assumed a human nature. But he is not a human Person. He is a divine Person, possessing two natures, human and divine.

So while we can speak of Jesus as a human being (that goes to nature, and he does have a human nature) we cannot speak of him as a human person, because his personhood is that of the Second Person of the Trinity–the Divine Word.

 

[tdomer]

I just don’t understand the Trinity. It for me is the hardest thing for me to believe about my religion. I also understand that we are not to have blind faith. Isn’t the trinity having blind faith. Scriptures sais:

Matt 1:15 Lord had said through the profit out of Egypt I called my son.
Is God calling himself?

Matt 4:16 Praise your father in heaven.
Who said it Jesus or God

Matt 6:6 Jesus tells us to pray to the father who is unseen

Matt 7:21 Not everyone who sais to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

Matt 12:50 For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

Matt 13:57 But Jesus said to them Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.

Is Jesus calling himself a prophet?

Matt 14:23 After he had dismissed them he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray
Pray to who?

Matt 21:10 He is called a prophet

Matt 26:36 Jesus sais only the father knows

Matt 26:39 Jesus falls with his face on the ground and prayed and asked God the father to take this cup from him then sais but not as he wills but as God wills

These are only a small part of some of the places in scripture where Jesus Teaches about his father in heaven and he prayed to him. I just don’t understand what the church teaches about the trinity when Jesus himself prayed to God and called himself a prophet. There are hundreds of these is scripture.

 

[JimG]

I just don’t understand the Trinity. It for me is the hardest thing for me to believe about my religion. I also understand that we are not to have blind faith. Isn’t the trinity having blind faith. Scriptures sais:

Matt 1:15 Lord had said through the profit out of Egypt I called my son.
Is God calling himself?

Matt 4:16 Praise your father in heaven.
Who said it Jesus or God

Matt 6:6 Jesus tells us to pray to the father who is unseen

Matt 7:21 Not everyone who sais to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

Matt 12:50 For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

Matt 13:57 But Jesus said to them Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.

Is Jesus calling himself a prophet?

Matt 14:23 After he had dismissed them he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray
Pray to who?

Matt 21:10 He is called a prophet

Matt 26:36 Jesus sais only the father knows

Matt 26:39 Jesus falls with his face on the ground and prayed and asked God the father to take this cup from him then sais but not as he wills but as God wills

These are only a small part of some of the places in scripture where Jesus Teaches about his father in heaven and he prayed to him. I just don’t understand what the church teaches about the trinity when Jesus himself prayed to God and called himself a prophet. There are hundreds of these is scripture.

Yes, Jesus prayed to the Father, and spoke about the Father. He could do this because the Father and Son are distinct Persons. The person of the Father is not the person of the Son. But each person possesses the one divine nature. So each Person of the Trinity is one in being, possessing the one divine nature, while being distinct Persons.

In human beings, it is normal for one person to be associated with one nature. I am one personl–JimG. I possess one nature–that of a human being. Person tells who I am; nature tells what I am.

But with God, three Persons are associated with one nature. Because it’s not how we experience life, we don’t understand it. But it is the nature of God–ONE nature!–to be expressed in three Persons. The Persons don’t have different natures; they have the One Divine nature.

 

[johnnyjones]

Can you comprehend that water can be a solid, a liquid or a vapor? I know you can. And you know that water in all those states is still water manifesting itself differently. Even in nature God gives us examples of the trinity. An egg is another example. Of course these examples do not project the glorious mystery of God and the trinity but it shows the one thing in essence can be seperate things.

 

[meltzerboy]

Can you comprehend that water can be a solid, a liquid or a vapor? I know you can. And you know that water in all those states is still water manifesting itself differently. Even in nature God gives us examples of the trinity. An egg is another example. Of course these examples do not project the glorious mystery of God and the trinity but it shows the one thing in essence can be seperate things.

Well, the water-ice-vapor analogy falls under one of the heresies (I believe modalism) since the physical substance changes even though the chemical composition remains the same. And the one essence or nature is not meant to consist of separate things but distinct Persons: there is a difference. Nonetheless, I understand what you’re saying.

 

[komeeks18]

Yes, Jesus prayed to the Father, and spoke about the Father. He could do this because the Father and Son are distinct Persons. The person of the Father is not the person of the Son. But each person possesses the one divine nature. So each Person of the Trinity is one in being, possessing the one divine nature, while being distinct Persons.

In human beings, it is normal for one person to be associated with one nature. I am one personl–JimG. I possess one nature–that of a human being. Person tells who I am; nature tells what I am.

But with God, three Persons are associated with one nature. Because it’s not how we experience life, we don’t understand it. But it is the nature of God–ONE nature!–to be expressed in three Persons. The Persons don’t have different natures; they have the One Divine nature.

Wow, your explanation helped me even more. Although I don’t think humans can ever have a complete, full grasp on the explanation on the Trinity (as I don’t think our brains can truly comprehend all of it), your explanation was the easiest for me to understand. Thank you VERY much!

 

[JimG]

Wow, your explanation helped me even more. Although I don’t think humans can ever have a complete, full grasp on the explanation on the Trinity (as I don’t think our brains can truly comprehend all of it), your explanation was the easiest for me to understand. Thank you VERY much!

You are right. It is not that the nature of God is unintelligible. God is not a contradiction. But he is God. We can know him more and more completely, but we can never know him perfectly, even in heaven, because his nature is infinite and ours is not.

 

[johnnyjones]

Well, the water-ice-vapor analogy falls under one of the heresies (I believe modalism) since the physical substance changes even though the chemical composition remains the same. And the one essence or nature is not meant to consist of separate things but distinct Persons: there is a difference. Nonetheless, I understand what you’re saying.

I specified my example was not to be equated with the glory of the trinity.

 

[jochoa]

I’ve been taught about the Trinity my entire life, I understand it mostly and believe it, but it’s so confusing. I know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. But I don’t understand why if they’re all one why Jesus the Son would sit at the right hand of the Father. If they’re one why would the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be separate in Heaven if they’re all God and in unity? Please and thankful!

I apologize for the late post. Excellent question, my friend! I recently stumbled upon this idea and would like to share it for your consideration:

To reconcile this, we must propose a definition for God. And here is the definition I have discovered which reveals the distinctions between each person.

God is the person who is always freely being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit (memory of person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self.

Jesus Christ: The Holy Trinity: The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is this person, God.

There are three methods of being this person:

1. Without beginning and without end. The Father.
2. Assumed to act outside of this nature, and in turn demonstrating this nature. The Son.
3. With beginning and without end. The Holy Spirit. ← This is why the Holy Spirit is inside of us. We have the ability, through great discipline of embracing the cross daily, to one day be able to become, from that day until the end of time, “a person who is always freely being…”

Thoughts?

 

[Cavaradossi]

I apologize for the late post. Excellent question, my friend! I recently stumbled upon this idea and would like to share it for your consideration:

To reconcile this, we must propose a definition for God. And here is the definition I have discovered which reveals the distinctions between each person.

God is the person who is always freely being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit (memory of person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self.

Jesus Christ: The Holy Trinity: The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is this person, God.

There are three methods of being this person:

1. Without beginning and without end. The Father.
2. Assumed to act outside of this nature, and in turn demonstrating this nature. The Son.
3. With beginning and without end. The Holy Spirit. ← This is why the Holy Spirit is inside of us. We have the ability, through great discipline of embracing the cross daily, to one day be able to become, from that day until the end of time, “a person who is always freely being…”

Thoughts?

This formula is uncomfortably modalistic. God is three personal realities, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rather than just being one person with three modes of being. Furthermore, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all without beginning, and to say anything otherwise would be subordinationism.

 

[jochoa]

This formula is uncomfortably modalistic. God is three personal realities, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, rather than just being one person with three modes of being. Furthermore, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all without beginning, and to say anything otherwise would be subordinationism.

Thank you very much for presenting the misrepresentations you perceive. Please consider updated semantics:

The Nature of God is: “Always freely being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, spirit (memory of person), thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for all, including the self.”
A. There are three real persons of this nature.

1. Without a beginning of being this nature and without ceasing to be this nature.
2. Assumed by another as acting outside of this nature, and in turn demonstrating this nature. ← Hence, “incarnate by the Holy Spirit…” Or “Assumed a human nature by the Holy Spirit…”
3. With beginning of this nature and without end. When I state with beginning, I am not declaring that the person had a beginning, I am declaring that the person became one with this nature at a particular instance in a sequence of events. ← Although the Holy Spirit did not have a beginning in “time”, the Holy Spirit does proceed from the Father and the Son, therefore, there is a sequence of events to be recognized.

Therefore, God is the Holy Trinity: Three Persons in one nature.

B. When carefully analyzing the second person of this concept of the Trinity, it is important to recognize the following:

1. The Son is always acting in oneness with this nature, ← He is one with the Father.
2. However, He does some actions which are perceived by others as not acting in oneness with this nature (such as His anger in the Temple, which in reality is such an incredibly kind act).
3. Since He is perceived as not acting in oneness with this nature and allows this perception, he embraces a human nature (acting outside of the divine nature). ← The Son born before all ages.
4. When He embraces the cross, He fully reveals the divine nature of freely being perfectly patient, kind, and motivated to all humans. ← Reveals the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, Jesus is God: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1. It is now our free-willed choice to become one with His Holy Spirit. If we can become one with His Holy Spirit through the Sacraments, Greatest Commandments and embracing the cross daily, we will be One with the Holy Spirit.

Thoughts?

 

[sophion]

Can you comprehend that water can be a solid, a liquid or a vapor? I know you can. And you know that water in all those states is still water manifesting itself differently. Even in nature God gives us examples of the trinity.

thats not ‘trinity’. its called ‘oneness’. the father becomes the son, the son becomes the holy spirit, the holy spirit becomes father.

The perfect natural equivalence of the Trinity is the Split Personality Syndrome. Sort of like the Gollumn character in Lord of the Rings. One physical body possessing 2 or more distinct minds or personas.