Trinity

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Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely. 🙂

I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.



Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc

Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?

God bless you and have good day 🙂
 
Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely. 🙂

I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.



Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc

Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?

God bless you and have good day 🙂
Do you believe St. John? “In the beginning was the Word (the Son), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”.

Jon

Welcome to CAF, by the way. 🙂 👍
 
Do you believe St. John? “In the beginning was the Word (the Son), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”.

Jon

Welcome to CAF, by the way. 🙂 👍
Thanks for welcoming me 👍

Jesus is not the word, he is what the word became (John 1:14). In the OT the word logos(word) never meant a person.
 
Jesus is not the word, he is what the word became (John 1:14). In the OT the word logos(word) never meant a person.
" The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is not the Word? If Jesus is not the Word who became flesh then who is the Word that became flesh?
 
Welcome! 😃
Thanks for welcoming me 👍

Jesus is not the word, he is what the word became (John 1:14). In the OT the word logos(word) never meant a person.
I disagree, consider 1 Sam. 3:1:
Now the boy Samuel was ministering to the Lord under Eli. The word of the Lord was rare in those days; visions were not widespread.
Now what does the “word of the Lord” have to do with visions not being widespread? Generally speaking we don’t see words, we hear them (unless they’re written down, but that’s beside the point). So what does this tell us about the nature of God’s Word, namely that it must be something, or someone, that can be seen.

Also if the Word of God IS God (as John 1:1 states) then how can God become anything less than God? John doesn’t say the Word created flesh, but BECAME flesh. Just because Jesus is what the Word became doesn’t mean the Word stopped being God.

But on to general support for the deity of Christ (I will assume you and I can both agree that the Father is God is a given):

There is one and only one God
“Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? what shall I say to them? God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me to you: This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” (Exodus 13:13-15)
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.” (Duet 6:4)
“Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.” (Isa 43:10)
“Do not fear, or be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? You are my witnesses! Is there any god besides me? There is no other rock; I know not one.” (Isa 44:8)
“Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by myself spread out the earth” (Isa 44:24)
“I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me” (Isa 45:5)
“You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he [God] is one, and besides him there is no other’;” (Mark 12:32)
“Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that ‘no idol in the world really exists,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.’ Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Cor 8:4-6) (Now this verse might seem to draw a distinction between God and Lord, but this verse must be read in the context of the OT, which proclaims “The Lord our God is one Lord”. The Lord IS God, therefore while Paul distinguishes between the Father and the Son (as does the Catholic Church today, they are distinct persons) they are fundamentally one Being, one God, and consubstantial. Here Paul affirms monotheism over polytheism and identifies the one God, but in his language identifies Christ with the traditional Jewish term used as a substitute for the divine name)

Jesus is God
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isa 9:6)
“Thomas answered him [Jesus], ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28)
“Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.” (John 8:58)
“My Father and I [Jesus] are one.” (John 10:30)
“The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” (John 10:33)
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form” (Phil 2:6-7) (How can one be in the form of or equal to God without actually being God? This verse shows that Jesus has two natures, one divine and one human, He is both fully human and fully God. This is the Catholic teaching.)
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col 2:9 KJV) (How can the fullness of three Persons dwell in only one Person without that Person being the same Being as the other Persons? Unless Jesus is God how can the fullness of God dwell in His body?)
“but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.” (Heb 1:2-3) (see the Son IS the Word and the EXACT representation of God…and isn’t an EXACT representation of something the same as the thing itself?)

Also read the rest of Hebrews 1. I have not addressed the deity of the Holy Spirit here, I will leave that for someone else as that it’s getting late. There are many other arguments for the Trinity out there, this is just some of the verses.
 
You sound mostly like a Jehovah’s Witness now. At any rate, from a Catholic point of view, those who deny the Holy Trinity are not Christians at all. It is an essential dogma of the faith and must be used in baptism. Start there, and the rest of your faith should fall into line.
 
Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely. 🙂

I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.



Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc

Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?

God bless you and have good day 🙂
Do you believe that Jesus is divine; that he is God?
 
Welcome! 😃

I disagree, consider 1 Sam. 3:1:
Now what does the “word of the Lord” have to do with visions not being widespread? Generally speaking we don’t see words, we hear them (unless they’re written down, but that’s beside the point). So what does this tell us about the nature of God’s Word, namely that it must be something, or someone, that can be seen.

Also if the Word of God IS God (as John 1:1 states) then how can God become anything less than God? John doesn’t say the Word created flesh, but BECAME flesh. Just because Jesus is what the Word became doesn’t mean the Word stopped being God.
You seem to agree with my point. The Word of God in the verse in 1 Sam 3:1 is a manifestation of God not a person
Like I said Jesus never claimed to be divine. All the verses you quoted do not say that Jesus is divine or claimed to be divine.

1 Corinthians 8:4 - yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 10:30 - Read John 17:11,17:21-22. Jesus did not mean I and the Father are one God
With the I AM (Ego eimi) statements, I don’t think the parallels exist with the verse in Exodus. Jesus meant I AM the Messiah, not I AM God.
 
You seem to agree with my point. The Word of God in the verse in 1 Sam 3:1 is a manifestation of God not a person
Like I said Jesus never claimed to be divine. All the verses you quoted do not say that Jesus is divine or claimed to be divine.

1 Corinthians 8:4 - yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 10:30 - Read John 17:11,17:21-22. Jesus did not mean I and the Father are one God
With the I AM (Ego eimi) statements, I don’t think the parallels exist with the verse in Exodus. Jesus meant I AM the Messiah, not I AM God.
I think it’s important to define what we mean by the term person. A person when used to describe the members of the Godhead in accordance with the dogma of the Most Holy Trinity IS a Manifestation of the one God. These Manifestations are co-equal. co-eternal, and simultaneously existing (that is to say God is not limited to existing in one way as we are, but can in fact be three people all at the same time). These three Persons are distinct from each other, but are fundamentally one and the same being. So the Word of God IS a manifestation of God, but He is a separate manifestation from the Father both of whom are separate from the Holy Spirit- yet all three are Manifestations of the same infinite Being and exist at the same time.

In John 17 Jesus’ prayer for unity need not be understood as a prayer for unity of being/essence/nature (which He and the Father have), but of unity of purpose and love (which He and the Father also have). The two are not mutually exclusive in God, He has both. Yet we do read in 2 Peter 1:3-4 “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” Therefore God does join us to Himself, not completely as Christ is (because He is the Word) but rather in a way modeled after this unity, making us more and more like Himself while being separate beings. A restoration of the divine image in us as it was before the Fall, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, etc. There is therefore no reason to negate all the other verses of scripture that proclaim one God and yet describe three people as God because of this one verse. This verse is different than John 10:30 because we see the reaction of the Jews to Jesus’s statement in John 10:30 is clearly that of outrage that he claimed to be God. Let simple scriptures interpret complex ones.

As for one verse where Jesus claimed to be divine…if you’re looking for “I am God” you won’t find it. There are many people in the old and new testaments who made this claim about him Isa 9:6 being a great example. Keep in mind that Jesus said “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true." (John 5:31-32) Just because Jesus didn’t articulate the Trinity and claim to be God directly (in recorded Scripture) does not mean it is not true. The Father testifies to Jesus divinity by the works Jesus worked, his Resurrection, and his glorification (see Hebrews 1). The Holy Spirit testifies to Christ’s divinity by leading the Church into all truth about God’s nature (cf. John 16:13) and speaking through the prophets, apostles, and others about Christ.
 
So the Word of God IS a manifestation of God, but He is a separate manifestation from the Father both of whom are separate from the Holy Spirit- yet all three are Manifestations of the same infinite Being and exist at the same time.
So the word is a 4th manifestation of God? Please clarify
In John 17 Jesus’ prayer for unity need not be understood as a prayer for unity of being/essence/nature (which He and the Father have), but of unity of purpose and love (which He and the Father also have). The two are not mutually exclusive in God, He has both. There is therefore no reason to negate all the other verses of scripture that proclaim one God and yet describe three people as God because of this one verse. This verse is different than John 10:30 because we see the reaction of the Jews to Jesus’s statement in John 10:30 is clearly that of outrage that he claimed to be God. Let simple scriptures interpret complex ones.
The Jews didn’t understand half of what Jesus was saying, so I don’t think you should use John 10:33 as an argument for the trinity/
As for one verse where Jesus claimed to be divine…if you’re looking for “I am God” you won’t find it. There are many people in the old and new testaments who made this claim about him Isa 9:6 being a great example. Keep in mind that Jesus said “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true." (John 5:31-32) Just because Jesus didn’t articulate the Trinity and claim to be God directly (in recorded Scripture) does not mean it is not true. The Father testifies to Jesus divinity by the works Jesus worked, his Resurrection, and his glorification (see Hebrews 1). The Holy Spirit testifies to Christ’s divinity by leading the Church into all truth about God’s nature (cf. John 16:13) and speaking through the prophets, apostles, and others about Christ.
Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse and is not to be taken literally. “Mighty God” is not a reference to YHWH. The whole verse is an hyperbole. Even if you were to take it literally, you would have to call Jesus Everlasting Father, which doesn’t make sense.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, but in my view, there is no such thing as God the Son
 
So the word is a 4th manifestation of God? Please clarify

The Jews didn’t understand half of what Jesus was saying, so I don’t think you should use John 10:33 as an argument for the trinity/

Isaiah 9:6 is a Messianic verse and is not to be taken literally. “Mighty God” is not a reference to YHWH. The whole verse is an hyperbole. Even if you were to take it literally, you would have to call Jesus Everlasting Father, which doesn’t make sense.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, but in my view, there is no such thing as God the Son
The Word is one of three persons (manifestations). The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. The Word became flesh (John 1:14) and that flesh has a name, Jesus. Jesus=Word. Because of the relationship between the Word and the Father, and that Jesus was born of a human mother who was overshadowed by the Most High we call the Word incarnate the Son of God, therefore Word=Son. As such because we know that In the beginning…the Word was God (John 1:1) if Word=God, and Word=Son, and Son=Jesus, then Jesus=God.

As for Isa 9:6 being hyperbole, I don’t think so. Was a child born? Yes. Is He called a Son? Also yes. Wonderful Counselor? Jesus did that. Government upon His shoulders? See Matt. 28:18. Mighty God? I don’t know upon what basis you say this doesn’t apply to Him. If everything else in this verse is literally true so far I see no reason to believe that Isaiah suddenly decided to start exaggerating to the point of blasphemy. The Son is Mighty God. This is confirmed by Hebrews 1:5-14. Everlasting Father? Admittedly this seems to confuse the persons of Father and Son, however, if they are the same Being and Jesus is the Word through which all things were made (John 1:3) then Jesus IS the Everlasting Father because He participated in the creation (or “fathering”) of all things and He is the same Being as the Father is, even if His distinct personality is not that of Father but of Son. Thus Everlasting Father comments on Jesus’ role in creation and His inherent oneness with God.
 
Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely. 🙂

I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.



Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc

Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?

God bless you and have good day 🙂
The Church dealt with the Arian heresy in the 4th Century.
 
The Word is one of three persons (manifestations). The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. The Word became flesh (John 1:14) and that flesh has a name, Jesus. Jesus=Word. Because of the relationship between the Word and the Father, and that Jesus was born of a human mother who was overshadowed by the Most High we call the Word incarnate the Son of God, therefore Word=Son. As such because we know that In the beginning…the Word was God (John 1:1) if Word=God, and Word=Son, and Son=Jesus, then Jesus=God.

As for Isa 9:6 being hyperbole, I don’t think so. Was a child born? Yes. Is He called a Son? Also yes. Wonderful Counselor? Jesus did that. Government upon His shoulders? See Matt. 28:18. Mighty God? I don’t know upon what basis you say this doesn’t apply to Him. If everything else in this verse is literally true so far I see no reason to believe that Isaiah suddenly decided to start exaggerating to the point of blasphemy. The Son is Mighty God. This is confirmed by Hebrews 1:5-14. Everlasting Father? Admittedly this seems to confuse the persons of Father and Son, however, if they are the same Being and Jesus is the Word through which all things were made (John 1:3) then Jesus IS the Everlasting Father because He participated in the creation (or “fathering”) of all things and He is the same Being as the Father is, even if His distinct personality is not that of Father but of Son. Thus Everlasting Father comments on Jesus’ role in creation and His inherent oneness with God.
I disagree when you say the Word=Son. The word is not a deity and is not limited to Jesus. Jesus is the word of God became.
The Bible is the word of God. Does this mean the the bible is a member of the Godhead? Is the Bible = Jesus?

As for Isa 9:6, the term for God has a broader meaning in the entire Bible. Moses was called god wasn’t he?(Exodous 7:1) Jesus even used this term in the NT(John 10:34), it is also used in Psalms 82:6, etc. Furthermore, In the original text there isn’t even a capital letter.

Everlasting father can be interpreted as “Father of the Age”. This is a messianic title for Jesus, not a deity title for Jesus as trinitarians propose. Jewish Rabbis did not understand it this way, and I don’t think we should.
 
JOHN 10:30 - The Father and I are one.

JOHN 14:9 - Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say “show us the Father” ?

MATTHEW 28:19 - Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Pax et Bonum
 
JOHN 10:30 - The Father and I are one.

JOHN 14:9 - Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say “show us the Father” ?

MATTHEW 28:19 - Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make th10dem my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Pax et Bonum
John 10:30 - Jesus also spok about being one in John 17:11, 17:22,11:58
John 14:9 - This doesn’t mean Jesus is God, but rather his agent.
Matthew 28:19 - This doesn’t mean that the Son is God.
 
Quote me just **one **verse where he claimed to be divine.
His actions in the NT indicate his divinity.

In my opinion, that He didn’t shout out that “I’M GOD!” is indication of his love for us and his willingness to come to us on our level, not a indication of lack of divinity.
 
Quote me just **one **verse where he claimed to be divine.
[BIBLEDRB]John 18:4-8[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus refers to himself using the Divine Name: the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, “I AM WHO AM”. Can you explain some other reason why the Jews turned away and fell to the ground?
 
This isn’t a particularly powerful argument, I’m just curious about it. When the Wise Men went and saw Jesus, they bowed down and worshiped him once they got there. I’m curious about your interpretation of that. That’s all. Hope you have a moment to share your thoughts.
 
With the I AM (Ego eimi) statements, I don’t think the parallels exist with the verse in Exodus. Jesus meant I AM the Messiah, not I AM God.
I’m sorry, that doesn’t work. Right after he said that phrase, in Jn 8:58, the Jews picked up rocks to kill him. Why?? Because he claimed to be the Messiah?? There was no law that forbade that, and definitely no death penalty for that. That would not make sense anyway, you’re eagerly waiting a messiah, and yet, when he claims to have come…you kill him?? No. The only reason they would want to kill him is because he was claiming to be God. Their reaction makes no sense otherwise.

Plus, He’s using I AM as a name, not a describer. He says “Before Abraham was, I AM.” He’s saying He existed before Abraham and then uses the Divine name for himself. I don’t see how he could get much plainer, and the Jews then didn’t either.

There’s so many other verses to go to, but the clearest one for me is in Revelation. I think you would agree that if Jesus was not God, he shouldn’t be worshipped or given the same glory and praise as the Father correct? That would be idolatry. If he’s just a creature, he could be honored but in NO way worshipped. Well, lets go to Revelation 5, where Johns describing the worship that’s going on in Heaven:
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor to him who is seated on the throne, who lives for ever and ever, the twenty four elders*** FALL DOWN before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives for ever; they cast their crowns down before the throne, singing
"
WORTHY *** art thou, our Lord and God, to receive GLORY and *** HONOR*** and POWER for thou didst create all things, and by thy will they existed and are created. (Rev 4:8-11)
It’s pretty clear the one on the throne is God. But now, here comes the interesting part, right after this scene in Revelation 4 we see:
between the throne and the four living creatures, I saw a Lamb, standing as though it had been slain
We know the Lamb is Jesus. John tells us that in his own gospel in John 1:29 when John the Baptist says of Jesus, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world!” So this is Jesus, just being clear. Anyways
and the Lamb went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders *** FELL DOWN *** before the Lamb, and I heard around the throne and living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels numbering myriads and myriads and thousands and thousands, saying with a loud voice, “*** WORTHY*** is the Lamb who was slain, to receive*** POWER***and wealth and wisdom and might and HONORand GLORYand blessing!”
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea and all therein, saying “to him who sits upon the throne *** and to the LAMB*** be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” And the four living creatures said “Amen!” And the elders *** fell down and WORSHIPPED***(Rev 5:8-14)

The Lamb, Jesus, is receiving the exact same worship and blessing as he who is on the throne. That would be absolutely unthinkable if he wasn’t God. We actually see something like that a little later in this same book when John starts to worship the angel who is showing him this stuff, and the angel rebukes him and tells him to not do that, but worship God alone.(Rev 22:8) The question is, why didn’t we see that when all of heaven and earth was worshipping the Lamb? The only answer could be because the Lamb also was God.
 
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