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andyklein
Guest
Can someone explain how God is one entity but three entities and how each of the three make for God, ontologically?
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm
From Radio Replies:
radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-1.php?t=61
radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-3.php?t=70
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm
From Radio Replies:
radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-1.php?t=61
radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-3.php?t=70
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Ryuji_Yamazaki
Guest
The Holy Trinity is demonstrably anti-biblical. Sketch of a disproof:
Jesus is not = God:
Spirit is not = God:
The Son of God is eternally begotten of the introspection of God. The Son is the living self-knowledge of God. The self-knowledge of God is not = God. Jesus is Son of God inward & Son of Man outward.
To deny what the Spirit reveals is to sin against truth for the Spirit is the living truth itself. To sin against truth is to blaspheme against the Spirit. The unpardonable sin.
Jesus is not = God:
Jesus is the son of the wise God & the son of the ancient king David. The root & offspring of David. The Spirit reveals that Jesus is not = God.
Spirit is not = God:
The spirit of prophecy who is the Holy Spirit reveals that he is not = God.
The Son of God is eternally begotten of the introspection of God. The Son is the living self-knowledge of God. The self-knowledge of God is not = God. Jesus is Son of God inward & Son of Man outward.
To deny what the Spirit reveals is to sin against truth for the Spirit is the living truth itself. To sin against truth is to blaspheme against the Spirit. The unpardonable sin.
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empther
Guest
:Oh no! Not this “controversy” again! 
How many times do we have to go over the same territory?
The three Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinguished from each other only by relationship, not substance. Each of them fully possesses the whole divine substance.
So God is not “three entities” in the words of the original post.
Start from there.
If you cannot understand that much,
no one can help you.
How many times do we have to go over the same territory?
The three Persons of the Holy Trinity are distinguished from each other only by relationship, not substance. Each of them fully possesses the whole divine substance.
So God is not “three entities” in the words of the original post.
Start from there.
If you cannot understand that much,
no one can help you.
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Ryuji_Yamazaki
Guest
What is the original meaning of the word “hypostasis”? One can only wonder at how cheap the legerdemainess was.
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vincent10395
Guest
From Catholic answers:
Jesus: Creature of Creator?
The doctrine that most clearly sets the WTS apart from Christianity is its denial of the divinity of Christ. JWs maintain that Jesus is actually a creature—a highly exalted one at that—but not God himself. Scripturally, the evidence is not in their favor.
John 1:1 states unequivocally, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This verse gave the JWs tremendous difficulty, and so in their own NWT they render the end of this verse as, “And the word was a god.” One great difficulty with this translation is how it contradicts passages such as Deuteronomy 32:39, which says, “I alone, am God and there are no gods together with me.” Further contradictions can be seen in Exodus 20:3, “Have no other gods besides me,” and Isaiah 43:10, “Before me no god was formed nor shall there be any after me.” When a particular translation so clearly opposes other verses in Scripture, one can know immediately that it is inaccurate.
In John 20:28 Thomas says to Jesus, “My Lord and my God.” In the original Greek it literally reads, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” It would be nothing short of blasphemy for Jesus not to rebuke Thomas if he was wrong. Jesus does nothing of the sort, but instead accepts Thomas’ profession of his identity as God.
The Bible indicates that God alone created the universe (Is. 44:24), and “he that constructed all things is God” (Heb. 3:4). However, Jesus created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10). This passage by itself proves that Jesus is God, since an Old Testament reference to God (Ps. 102:26-28) is now given to him.
In John 8:58, Jesus takes the name of God, “I AM” (Ex. 3:15-18), and applies it to himself. Only God may use this title without b.aspheming (Ex. 20:7, Deut. 5:11), and the punishment for someone other than God to use the sacred “I AM” is stoning (Lev. 24:16). Thus in verse 59, Jesus’ audience picked up stones to kill him, because they correctly understood his use of “I AM” as his claim to being God and hence thought he was guilty of blasphemy. This verse also proved to be difficult for the JWs to combat, and so they changed “I AM” to “I have been.” The Greek here isego eimi, which any first-semester Greek student can tell you means “I am.” It should also be noted that it would be rather strange for people to stone Jesus for saying that he “had been.”
JWs maintain that only Jehovah God may be prayed to. But Stephen prayed to Jesus in Acts 7:59, and so one must conclude that Jesus is God. Otherwise, Stephen b.asphemed while filled with the Holy Spirit (7:55). Now the JWs will assert that Stephen was praying as a result of the vision he originally beheld, where he saw God and Jesus in heaven (verse 55). However, verse 58 says that Stephen was dragged out of the city to be stoned, so clearly the vision had ended, for his stoning took place in a different location and at a later time. It is in the context of this later setting when Stephen clearly prays to Jesus that he might “receive [Stephen’s] spirit.”
The WTS would have their followers believe that Jehovah and Jesus are necessarily different beings, though the Bible tells another story. Jesus is called Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6, and in the very next chapter the same title is given to Jehovah in verse 21. Other shared titles include: King of Kings (compare with Rev. 17:14), Lord of Lords (Deut. 10:17; Rev. 17:14), the only Savior (Is. 43:10-11; Acts 4:12), the First and the Last (Is. 44:6; Rev. 22:13), the Alpha and the Omega (Rev. 1:8; Rev. 22:13-16), Rock (Is. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:7-8), and Shepherd (Ps. 23:1; Heb. 13:20-21).
Jesus and Jehovah have much more in common than titles, though. They are both worshipped by angels (Heb. 1:6, Neh. 9:6). They are both unchanging (Heb. 13:8, Mal. 3:6). They both created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10, Neh. 9:6) and are all-knowing (John 21:17, 1 John 3:20). Both give eternal life (John 10:28, 1 John 5:11), and judge the world (John 5:22, Ps. 96:13). To them every knee will bend and every tongue confess (Phil. 2:9-11, Is. 45:23).
God Bless!
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vincent10395
Guest
Now about the Holy Spirit:
Is the Holy Spirit a Force or God?
Since the WTS insists that the Trinity is unbiblical and false, they relegate the Holy Spirit to the role of God’s impersonal active force which compels believers to do his will. In fact, they compare the Holy Spirit (which they render as “holy spirit”) to electricity.
The Bible begs to differ, though. There are numerous verses in the New Testament which clearly demonstrate both the personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 13:2, the Holy Spirit says, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” In Acts 10:19-20, this “impersonal force” considers himself to be a person. John 16 supports this idea by referring to the Holy Spirit as a “he” 10 times in the same chapter. First Corinthians 12:11 states that the Holy Spirit “wills,” which is an irrefutable attribute of personhood, as is the capacity to love we see demonstrated by the Spirit in Romans 15:30. Scripture also states that the Holy Spirit can: be lied to (Acts 5:3), speak (Acts 10:19-20), hear (John 16:13-15), know the future (Acts 21:11), testify (John 15:26), teach (John 14:26), reprove (John 16:8-11), pray and intercede (Rom. 8:26), guide (John 16:13), call (Acts 13:2), be grieved (Eph. 4:30), feel hurt (Is. 63:10), be outraged (Heb. 10:29), desire (Gal. 5:17) and be b.asphemed (Mark 3:29). Only a person is capable of these.
These examples demonstrate sufficiently that the Holy Spirit is a personal being, and so now one must demonstrate that he is God. Acts 5:1-4 teaches that a lie to the Holy Spirit is a lie to God himself. Isaiah 44:24 insists that God alone created the heavens and the earth, but Job 33:4 and Psalms 104:30 explains that the Holy Spirit created them. Only God is everlasting, and this is likewise an attribute Scripture gives the Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14). The Jews put Jehovah to the test (Ex. 17:2), and the Holy Spirit takes the words of God, and claims they “tested and tried me” (Heb. 3:9). Unless the Holy Spirit is God, then he is an impostor. Again, in Hebrews 10:16, he claims to have placed his law in man’s hearts, though this was God’s work in Jeremiah 31:33. There is but one Lord (Eph. 4:5), and one Creator (Mal. 2:10), yet both the Father and the Spirit claim they are him (Matt. 11:25 and 2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Cor. 8:6 and Ps. 104:30). Only the Catholic understanding of the Trinity reconciles these passages.
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Ryuji_Yamazaki
Guest
By no means am I affiliated with any religion. God is my father. Wisdom is my mother. The question whether Jesus is creature or creator is ill posed. Jesus = Son of God & Son of Man. The Son of God is the self-knowledge of God, the very essence or concept of God. The Son did not create anything. Through him did God create what He did create. This is obvious: the Son is the Logos, the realm of the conceptual & of all things formal like properties. Are not properties the cause of diversity? If you don’t have the concept of something you simply don’t distinguish that something in the soup of your perceptions.
Both the Son & the Spirit are eternal & alive. They are the living concept & the living truth. God is the living existence. He is the most high. Without existence there is neither concept nor truth. He is their existence. The Spirit bears witness when the Word speaks: verily, verily. He is the cause of our being convinced when we hear some truth. But the Word is the concept of God: about what does the concept of something speak? Is it not about that thing? Of course it is hence the “I”.
The Son isn’t God. Only God is good. The Father is greater than the Son: if you don’t believe this you love not the Son.
Both the Son & the Spirit are eternal & alive. They are the living concept & the living truth. God is the living existence. He is the most high. Without existence there is neither concept nor truth. He is their existence. The Spirit bears witness when the Word speaks: verily, verily. He is the cause of our being convinced when we hear some truth. But the Word is the concept of God: about what does the concept of something speak? Is it not about that thing? Of course it is hence the “I”.
The Son isn’t God. Only God is good. The Father is greater than the Son: if you don’t believe this you love not the Son.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
So you think whizzardry was involved, eh? Let’s see. He raised three people to life, one had been dead three days, he healed the sick by the hundreds, he cast out deamons by the hundreds, he fed thousands ( twice ) with a few loaves and a few fish, he read people’s minds whenever he chose, he walked on water, he calmed storms, he knew where the fish were, he foretold in detail the time, manner, and place of his violent death, he raised himself from the dead, he walked through walls. Right, he was a first class whizzard. Or perhaps he was really who he said he was?
Linus2nd
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Well thank goodness Catholics have the Magisterium of the Church to interpret the Bible for us, we do not rely on private interpretations. And yours is decidedly strange.
Linus2nd
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jochoa
Guest
Excellent question! Please consider the following explanation:
According to your post, God, by definition is one entity.
There are three distinct entities that are each one entity.
First, there is the entity that always is one entity.
Second, there is the entity that although always is one entity, is assumed by another entity to not be always one entity.
Third, there is the entity that becomes always one entity.
Therefore, by the proposed definition of God, each distinct entity is God, one entity, yet by definition of each entity cannot be one another.
Perhaps you can perceive the semantic connection with the Nicene Creed:
First, the Father
Second, the Son, who is one in being (always is one entity) with the Father, incarnate by the Holy Spirit and became man.
Third, the Holy Spirit, who proceeds.
Thanks for your time and consideration! I hope this helps, and I look forward to reading your thoughts and critiques!
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Ryuji_Yamazaki
Guest
Jesus speaks in parables. He shows us, by his very acts, what the son of perdition shall do. In the outward the man of sin & the son of man are indistinguishable. In the inward they are contradictory. You need to see the inward Spirit. The original meaning of hypostasis is substance: hypo: sub, stasis: stance. The early church knew well that there was 3 non-equal substances.
To drink the blood of Christ is to see his Spirit for the Spirit is truth & life. Life is blood. To eat his flesh is to live by the Word of God for man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Realize that the Catholics’ Jesus = God i.e., he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. The temple of God is the concept of God, the Son of God. To sit in the temple of God means that the concept of God applies to him who is sitting in the temple. According to the Catholics the temple of God sits in the temple of God i.e., the Catholics’ God is the temple of God.
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Razanir
Guest
First question. How do you reconcile this with the first Commandment? “You shall have no other gods before me.” (Ex 20:3, RSV2CE)
IF you accept the Logos as the same as Wisdom from Proverbs, Wisdom and Sirach, then here’s a counterargument:
“for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me…” (from Wis 7:22, RSV2CE) Wisdom, that is, the Logos took part in the creation of the world.
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Ryuji_Yamazaki
Guest
The Son is begotten of the eternal introspection of God. The Son is born in the wisdom of the Father. But wisdom is no person.
I do not. The Logos, I believe, is the self-knowledge of God. The Logos is a person.
The fashioner of all things: in wisdom are born all concepts or, rather, they are in the only begotten concept: the self-knowledge of God. Concepts, properties are what allows one to recognize things in the mess of his perceptions.
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