Trolley problem and white lies

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Double effect, if I remember right, has a good end but has other effects accidental to it that are evil. A white lie uses an evil end (giving bad knowledge).

I see. He claims he uses lie to make someone feel better- that is the supposed effect.

But he achieves it by doing something evil. It’s not an evil accidental effect of doing something good.

 

[o_mlly]

Hello. Today I was confronted with person claiming that “white lies” are actually okay and a way of showing love.

We are made in God’s image, possessing reason as a faculty. The object of reason is to seek the truth and, ultimately, find the Truth. All who ultimately seek the Truth have a right to lesser truths. While we may withhold the lesser truths from those who would do evil in knowing truth, we may never lie to anyone even with good intention.

The trolley case attempts emotively to overwhelm the rational distinction of the moral object of a human act as separate and independent from the subjective intention of any actor. The moral object of the act does not change for different actors with different intentions. To do so is to blur the long-held principles of Catholic thinking on morality.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I see. How would this relate to the problem posed on this thread about hiding Jews during World War II?

Above examples are all that they are hidden in someone’s house… but for sake of argument let’s say that we know where Jews are hiding and we get asked “where are the Jews hiding?”. Is dodging the question only option, or is a lie in a sense “I don’t know” actually good idea?

 

[o_mlly]

I see. How would this relate to the problem posed on this thread about hiding Jews during World War II?

Above examples are all that they are hidden in someone’s house… but for sake of argument let’s say that we know where Jews are hiding and we get asked “where are the Jews hiding?”. Is dodging the question only option, or is a lie in a sense “I don’t know” actually good idea?

Some type of deception that may mislead the Nazis but does not directly lie is permissible. Some mental creativity is likely helpful. For instance, “I don’t know” would be permissible with the unspoken but implied understanding “at this moment”. The kids may have already fled the house for all you know “at this moment”.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Some type of deception that may mislead the Nazis but does not directly lie is permissible.

So in an event where we get asked and can’t think of that on the spot, lying would still be a problem?

For instance, “I don’t know” would be permissible with the unspoken but implied understanding “at this moment”. The kids may have already fled the house for all you know “at this moment”.

Still, intention of that act is to deceive someone. It is “technically true” but in reality intention of deceiving them remains.

 

[Leek]

Wouldn’t telling nazis the truth be participating in their evil? Can we always always separate every sin from it’s greater context?

 

[o_mlly]

So in an event where we get asked and can’t think of that on the spot, lying would still be a problem?

We all rely on God’s mercy. In the moment, if one’s emotions overwhelm their reason and their freedom to act otherwise is impeded then their guilt is mitigated if not entirely removed.

Still, intention of that act is to deceive someone. It is “technically true” but in reality intention of deceiving them remains.

Is not the intention of the act to protect the Jews from evil? The act that I described is not a lie and therefore not evil in its object.

 

[o_mlly]

Wouldn’t telling nazis the truth be participating in their evil? Can we always always separate every sin from it’s greater context?

We are not obligated to tell the truth to those who would do evil as a result. Jesus often withheld the truth without lying about his own identity, calling himself the “Son of man”, to those who would put him to death before His time.

 

[Beryllos]

Telling family about a terminal illness Casual Discussion

This excerpt from Lying, by Sam Harris, may be illuminating: My maternal grandmother died of cancer when my mother was sixteen. She had been suffering from metastatic melanoma for nearly a year, but her doctor had told her that she had arthritis. Her husband, my grandfather, knew her actual diagnosis but decided to maintain this deception as well. After my grandmother’s condition deteriorated, and she was finally hospitalized, she confided to a nurse that she knew that she was dying. However,…

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

For those who still say the idea of having to lie to the Nazis to protect Jewish people didn’t happen or was extremely rare, I’d like to introduce you to the Righteous Among the Nations. It’s a designation given to those who have eyewitness who can attest to them selflessly saving Jewish people during the time of the Holocaust. If you check the database in the link I provided you can further break them down by faith (or no faith) and country of origin. Each has a fascinating story to tell, almost always lying to authorities to protect those who needed protection the most. Each person links to a small biography explaining their deeds.

I understand some people will still say that lying in these cases is wrong, but in my opinion we can be extremely thankful that these brave people did what needed to be done – even sometimes at the cost of their lives.

 

[Rau]

For those who still say the idea of having to lie to the Nazis to protect Jewish people didn’t happen or was extremely rare,

Is there ANYBODY who says that?

 

[Anesti33]

Don’t forget the Egyptian midwives, whom God dealt with kindly, or Rahab, the righteous Gentile ancestor of Christ.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Is there ANYBODY who says that?

Look upthread.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Look upthread.

I know people lied during those times.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Every saint except Mary also sinned.

God did not reward the lies. These are more examples of sinners who repented.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Bear in mind that there is no correct answer.

Of course there is a correct answer. It just varies according to the ethics system to which you subscribe - or which you think you understand.

Yeah, I’d agree that my answer would seem to be the correct one to me. But that wouldn’t mean that it would be the right one. It would only be right as far as we are concerned if you agreed with me.

 

[Freddy]

Wouldn’t telling nazis the truth be participating in their evil? Can we always always separate every sin from it’s greater context?

I think that if you want to call every example of lying a sin then…so be it. It’s a sin. End of story.

It’s completely ridiculous to ask this question but here it is anyway. What is more important? To save a family from certain death or tell a lie?

If it were your family, would you kill someone to protect them? Naturally. And that would be considered justified defence. So tell me how it’s supposed to work? Do you say ‘I cannot tell a lie, they’re in the basement. But I will kill you if you attempt to harm them’.

To say that you cannot lie in a situation as has been described is to say that you have more consideration for yourself then you do for the family. And that you consider that God would agree that sacrificing a family has more moral worth than telling a lie which would save them.

 

[Roguish]

Roguish:

kapp19:

the faculty of communication […] exists to indicate realities, or “tell truths,”

the primary purpose of speech is to sway other creatures, human or animal or supernatural.

It might be true that some people and peoples don’t treat it that way; okay, you still have to show why they are right to do so.

@kapp19 I wouldn’t say that they’re right (or wrong). I’m just saying that this – the desire to influence other creatures – is the original impulse that gave rise to the faculty of speech.

Modern man believes that he uses speech for an entirely different purpose: to describe “realities” – to put it in your words. But here’s the thing: what if actually we still use speech the same way that tribesmen use it, except that unlike the tribesmen, we’ve forgotten that that’s what we’re doing? Could it be that this thing called “reality”, which we so doggedly believe to be a rigid thing “out there”, independent of our perception, and which we believe we are “objectively” describing – could it be that this “reality” is actually just another “charming” (or charmed) perception that we induce in ourselves and each other by endlessly repeating certain kinds of narratives to each other?

Naaaahhh… I’m sure I’m wrong about all of this!

 

[TheLittleLady]

There is a good series of articles that explain why we cannot lie so that good may come of it.

It is a sin to lie, even to Planned Parenthood

You are of your father the devil, … truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the fath...

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com

 

[Leek]

Yes, it seems sometimes like “sin” gets detached from everything and just becomes “bad” for its own sake.