Troop pull-out unjust?

[Termin]

Hello All

I am pretty convinced that the Church hierarchy was against waging war in Iraq, what I am unclear about is what the Church is saying about the most just way to handle the situation that we have as of today. Putting aside the morality of starting the war, has anyone found any explicit statments from the Church about whether we should “finish the job” or issue a complete troop withdrawl?

In my mind, withdrawing troops would be more unjust then staying long enough to establish a safe environement and a stable government. Withdawing now might leave Iraq worse off then before. For me, this is a significant issue and I would love to know if the Church has made any statements on the current situation in Iraq. Can anyone help?

 

[vz71]

Hello All

I am pretty convinced that the Church hierarchy was against waging war in Iraq, what I am unclear about is what the Church is saying about the most just way to handle the situation that we have as of today. Putting aside the morality of starting the war, has anyone found any explicit statments from the Church about whether we should “finish the job” or issue a complete troop withdrawl?

In my mind, withdrawing troops would be more unjust then staying long enough to establish a safe environement and a stable government. Withdawing now might leave Iraq worse off then before. For me, this is a significant issue and I would love to know if the Church has made any statements on the current situation in Iraq. Can anyone help?

I agree.
whether or not one agrees with the justification of the war, a pullout now would cause more problems.

 

[Matthias123]

I agree.
whether or not one agrees with the justification of the war, a pullout now would cause more problems.

A pullout would cause a genocide. America broke it, now they must fix it.

 

[vz71]

A pullout would cause a genocide. America broke it, now they must fix it.

Right.
And we need to make it better then anything else in the region.

 

[KingAlfred]

Hello All

I am pretty convinced that the Church hierarchy was against waging war in Iraq, what I am unclear about is what the Church is saying about the most just way to handle the situation that we have as of today. Putting aside the morality of starting the war, has anyone found any explicit statments from the Church about whether we should “finish the job” or issue a complete troop withdrawl?

In my mind, withdrawing troops would be more unjust then staying long enough to establish a safe environement and a stable government. Withdawing now might leave Iraq worse off then before. For me, this is a significant issue and I would love to know if the Church has made any statements on the current situation in Iraq. Can anyone help?

Good question. I agree that a hasty withdraw would severely endanger the greater Iraqi society. In Vietnam, the Communists executed hundreds of thousands of U.S. collaborators after conquering the south in 1975.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I think the Church would always advise prudence in any decision a government makes regardless of previous decisions.

An immediate pull-out would bruise the sensibility of many Americans like Viet Nam had in 1975 but they would soon get over it as that generation has. Would it have been more just to end the war in 1972 or even 1968?

For those that think a WWII Japan/Germany type rebirth of civility in the Middle East will be realized by a continuation of hostilities in a global WOT, or n a weak form of democracy in Islamic states, please think again. That was a very different war and in this one we legitimize, not destroy, the very ideology responsible for attacking and threatening us. Seven years in Afghanistan should prove that at least.

Staving off the threat of genocide is a poor and unjust excuse to stay in Iraq when genocide is happening in a number of other places we have no national interest in. We (America) were not appointed to save the world from demons and monsters. It is enough to take care of ourselves.

A pull out of Iraq only might be unjust if we remain everywhere else in the world attepting to bring it peace by threat of retailiation. Some think it folly to suggest a complete world-wide withdrawal but I think it a brave thing to do that would serve the world better in the long run. It takes courage and strength to keep ones peace, and restraint pleases the Lord to which anger is reserved. It also sets the example for others to which our influence and reputation would better be known.

Someone please give me at least one example where our Doctrine encourages force to bring about the Good News. Or an example of our Law (US Constitution) that permits military intervention/occupation to bring about stability in another part of the world that does not directly threaten America.

For any reasonable imaginable- would you accept foreign combat forces and permanent foreign military bases in America with the blessings of our government? The golden rule applies in a universal sense.

Unless we are willing to invade Pakistan right now to kill/capture the criminals responsible for the 9/11 attacks; (which I would support in an American sense though the Just response was squandered by diplomacy over time making my justice delayed as justice denied), I advocate a complete withdrawl of US forces back to the US mainland and territories with no more permanent foreign occupation anywhere in the world begining with Iraq.

 

[Dale_M]

I advocate a complete withdrawl of US forces back to the US mainland and territories with no more permanent foreign occupation anywhere in the world begining with Iraq.

I don’ t think this would be just. We created anarchy in Iraq. It is our responsibility (and our interest) to return it to stability.

In Afghanistan, we are fighting known backers of the people behind 9/11. It would be foolish for us to withdraw from that country. Granted, invading Iraq was a stupid mistake. But we have very good reason to be fighting in Afghanistan.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

I am pretty convinced that the Church hierarchy was against waging war in Iraq, what I am unclear about is what the Church is saying about the most just way to handle the situation that we have as of today. Putting aside the morality of starting the war, has anyone found any explicit statments from the Church about whether we should “finish the job” or issue a complete troop withdrawl?

I do recall that the US Bishops asked for an exit strategy a while back in “A Call for Bipartisan Cooperation on Responsible Transition in Iraq
A Statement of the President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops”

In additon Msgr. Robert W. McElroy, wrote this article applying Just War Doctrine to continued involvement in Iraq.

…moral scrutiny of the decision to wage war should take place not merely at the beginning of a conflict, but at every stage of its duration. If it is morally required by just-war thinking that there be a just cause, approval by competent authority, the presence of right intention, reasonable hope of success and proportionality of means in any initial decision to wage war, is it not also morally required that these conditions be present throughout the conflict if war is to be continued? The moral warrant for war can hardly be said to continue if the foundations for that warrant have disappeared.

Scrutiny of the current situation in Iraq reveals that four of the required foundations for the moral use of force are not currently being met.

Given also that “Iraq’s national security adviser said his country will not accept any security deal with the United States unless it contains specific dates for the withdrawal of U.S.led forces” and Iraq’s prime minister has publicly stated “he expects the pending troop deal with the United States to have some type of timetable for withdrawal.”
(news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)

Then I would think how the US honors these demands would certainly affect how licit or just it would be for a continued presence there.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I don’ t think this would be just. We created anarchy in Iraq. It is our responsibility (and our interest) to return it to stability.

Can you reference Catholic Doctrine or US Law that makes staying just? We did not create the anarchy, and I have a difficult time defining our responsibility, our interest, and stability with regard to a continued presence.

What we have created is an Islamic democracy in two countries and urging it in others. When they vote in ‘radical’ Islamic elements to their goverments will you then support their overthrow?

In Afghanistan, we are fighting known backers of the people behind 9/11. It would be foolish for us to withdraw from that country. Granted, invading Iraq was a stupid mistake. But we have very good reason to be fighting in Afghanistan.

How inept do you think our military after 7 years of occupation of Afghanistan? If it isn’t the military’s fault for being unable to capture/kill those who attacked us, whose fault is it?

We had a just reason to go into Afghanistan and follow them into Pakistan when they fled there and any other place they hid themselves. We have lost that justification by the diversion to Iraq. Dale_M. you advocate staying, do you also advocate permanent US bases in Iraq like in Germany, Japan, Korea, and other places for another half century?

 

[KingAlfred]

I don’ t think this would be just. We created anarchy in Iraq. It is our responsibility (and our interest) to return it to stability.

In Afghanistan, we are fighting known backers of the people behind 9/11. It would be foolish for us to withdraw from that country. Granted, invading Iraq was a stupid mistake. But we have very good reason to be fighting in Afghanistan.

 

[Dale_M]

Dale_M. you advocate staying, do you also advocate permanent US bases in Iraq like in Germany, Japan, Korea, and other places for another half century?

I don’t think the Iraqis want us there permanently. I do think that obtaining long-term bases was one of the objectives for invasion of Iraq (which I opposed).

 

[KingAlfred]

I’m currently reading U.S. Army / Marine Counterinsurgency Field Manual by Generals Petraeus and Amos. If anybody can accomplish the mission in Iraq, it’s these two guys. Great book.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I don’t think the Iraqis want us there permanently. I do think that obtaining long-term bases was one of the objectives for invasion of Iraq (which I opposed).

What the Iraqis want is not very relevant is it? How long will you support the war? If you oppose permanent bases in Iraq do you support them in Europe and Asia?

I’m currently reading U.S. Army / Marine Counterinsurgency Field Manual by Generals Petraeus and Amos. If anybody can accomplish the mission in Iraq, it’s these two guys. Great book.

What is the mission and is it just? Do you think our setting up Islamic governments are in our interest?

 

[Dale_M]

What the Iraqis want is not very relevant is it?

I think it is, but then my opinion counts about as much as my dog’s.

How long will you support the war?

Until the Iraqi government is able to defend itself. Since the Iraqi air force is not scheduled to get jets until 2012, and will then need time to train in them, I guess we will have a significant presence in Iraq til at least 2014. But I’m no military or foreign policy expert, so please (anyone) correct me if this is wrong.

If you oppose permanent bases in Iraq do you support them in Europe and Asia?

I don’t know enough about military strategy to say one way or the other.

 

[vz71]

What the Iraqis want is not very relevant is it?

Seems to me that what the Iraqis want is very relevent.
Else we would never have enabled them to hold free elections.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I think it is, but then my opinion counts about as much as my dog’s.

Your dog can’t vote so your opinion is worth more.

Most Iraqis Favor Immediate U.S. Pullout, Polls Show
BAGHDAD, Sept. 26, 2006 – A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

If we cared about what they want we might have left 2 years ago. I repeat an earlier unanswered question: For any reasonable imaginable- would you accept foreign combat forces and permanent foreign military bases in America with the blessings of our government?

Until the Iraqi government is able to defend itself. Since the Iraqi air force is not scheduled to get jets until 2012, and will then need time to train in them, I guess we will have a significant presence in Iraq til at least 2014. But I’m no military or foreign policy expert, so please (anyone) correct me if this is wrong.

Like Korea can defend itslef 50 years later, or Japan 60 years later…

I don’t know enough about military strategy to say one way or the other.

I’ll repeat another unanswered question: Can you reference Catholic Doctrine or US Law that makes staying just, or do they not matter in this case?

Seems to me that what the Iraqis want is very relevent.
Else we would never have enabled them to hold free elections.

Will you honor their free elections if the vote in al Sadr or hama/Hexbollah type groups or will you then advocate another war to end the governments we created?

Can anyone explain to me how Islamic governments are in the interest and charter of America to create and promote?

 

[vz71]

Will you honor their free elections if the vote in al Sadr or hama/Hexbollah type groups or will you then advocate another war to end the governments we created?

Can anyone explain to me how Islamic governments are in the interest and charter of America to create and promote?

Actually, they have not voted anything nearly that bad into office.
And the fact that there are free public elections says enough about that.

As far as the question concerning the Islamic government…why complain? It demonstrates the people there getting what they want.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Actually, they have not voted anything nearly that bad into office.
And the fact that there are free public elections says enough about that.

We don’t know that do we? They have been on ‘break’ for the last year almost and our strings are still attached to those freely elected.

We backed Saddam a decade or two before kicking him out and having him hung. We backed Iran in 53-79 until they kicked us out and now the talk is of attacking them for our own good.

Isn’t there some wise saying about not learning from mistakes and being destined to repeat them? Do you just completly dismiss them as mistakes or are we so noble they are excused?

As far as the question concerning the Islamic government…why complain? It demonstrates the people there getting what they want.

Do you actively serve as a worlds policeman or just advocate others to do so on your behalf?

Please answer what US law supports your position, and what Catholic Doctrine justifies what you are advocating.

 

[vz71]

Do you actively serve as a worlds policeman or just advocate others to do so on your behalf?

Please answer what US law supports your position, and what Catholic Doctrine justifies what you are advocating.

I am not certain I understand the complaint.
Your initial claim was that the Iraqi people were not being listened to or given what they want.
Once that is shown to be false, you have moved on to various questions concerning police.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I am not certain I understand the complaint.
Your initial claim was that the Iraqi people were not being listened to or given what they want.
Once that is shown to be false, you have moved on to various questions concerning police.

No, My first response was:

…Someone please give me at least one example where our Doctrine encourages force to bring about the Good News. Or an example of our Law (US Constitution) that permits military intervention/occupation to bring about stability in another part of the world that does not directly threaten America…
Unless we are willing to invade Pakistan right now to kill/capture the criminals responsible for the 9/11 attacks; (which I would support in an American sense though the Just response was squandered by diplomacy over time making my justice delayed as justice denied), I advocate a complete withdrawl of US forces back to the US mainland and territories with no more permanent foreign occupation anywhere in the world begining with Iraq.

Then this was said:

I don’t think the Iraqis want us there permanently.

I asked:

What the Iraqis want is not very relevant is it?

You said:

Seems to me that what the Iraqis want is very relevent.
Else we would never have enabled them to hold free elections.

I responded:

Most Iraqis Favor Immediate U.S. Pullout, Polls Show
BAGHDAD, Sept. 26, 2006 – A strong majority of Iraqis want U.S.-led military forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence, according to new polls by the State Department and independent researchers.

And now you are telling me it was shown to be false. How do you get that when it said 2 years ago the ywanted us out and we have not only stayed but increased troop levels since?

It is you advocating police type action with our military by staying in Iraq. I ask you to support it some how and show it’s justification. If you would rather not answer please say so and not just ignore the question that would answer my query and then tell me I am the one not answering questions.

The OP asks if a pullout would be unjust. I said no because not only US law doesn’t support military occupation in offensive wars but the Catholic faith has no Scripture has nothing in it that supports it either.

You and a few others seem to suggest it is just to stay so it isn’t unreasonable to ask why yo usupport it other than “I feel”. Lastly, I simply ask you physically support what you advocate.