Troop pull-out unjust?

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Perhaps if you read the entire thread the argument would not be there.

Given the last post, I can certainly see why you would believe that you have a point. However, there has been a great deal more information in this thread then the quotes listed.

In any case, the fact remains that the only force with any ability at all to defend the Iraqi people that is there is the US led coalition. Were there to be a pullout, there would be a number of problems created. Not the least of which would be great loss of life as the insurgency in Iraq comes to greater power and takes revenge upon those that worked with the coalition.

If for no other reason then to stave off a genocide, we should be there.
 
It is you advocating police type action with our military by staying in Iraq.
The only person that brought up “police action” was yourself.
And since you are also the one arguing against it, and claiming others to have brought it up, it would appear you sprung your straw man early.
I ask you to support it some how and show it’s justification. If you would rather not answer please say so and not just ignore the question that would answer my query and then tell me I am the one not answering questions.
Your question involved Islamic government…at least that is what you posted earlier. And you wished to know how that served the US policy.
The answer is, it may not. But it does not have to. It is their government…not ours. Another indication that the Iraqis are getting what they want.
The OP asks if a pullout would be unjust. I said no because not only US law doesn’t support military occupation in offensive wars but the Catholic faith has no Scripture has nothing in it that supports it either.
I would think not taking a course of action that you know will lead to unjustified loss of life to fall well within the bounds of Catholicism. Has the church changed it’s stance on culpability?
You and a few others seem to suggest it is just to stay so it isn’t unreasonable to ask why yo usupport it other than “I feel”. Lastly, I simply ask you physically support what you advocate.
There have been several posts that gave specifics.
Were they not specific enough for you?
 
Perhaps if you read the entire thread the argument would not be there.
I’m not sure what thread you are reading, but it doesn’t seem to be this one.
Given the last post, I can certainly see why you would believe that you have a point. However, there has been a great deal more information in this thread then the quotes listed.
The only information given by those supporting a continued stay in Iraq do so on feelings and a book about two general officers.
In any case, the fact remains that the only force with any ability at all to defend the Iraqi people that is there is the US led coalition. Were there to be a pullout, there would be a number of problems created. Not the least of which would be great loss of life as the insurgency in Iraq comes to greater power and takes revenge upon those that worked with the coalition.
You don’t know any of that but continually state it as fact. We were told going in it would be a cakewalk with troops being greated as liberators. The same people who told us that now tell us a mass killing will take place if we leave. Were they correct about a cakewalk? Why do you believe them now?
If for no other reason then to stave off a genocide, we should be there.
Staving off the threat of genocide is a poor and unjust excuse to stay in Iraq when genocide is happening in a number of other places we have no national interest in. We (America) were not appointed to save the world from demons and monsters. It is enough to take care of ourselves.
 
The only person that brought up “police action” was yourself.
And since you are also the one arguing against it, and claiming others to have brought it up, it would appear you sprung your straw man early.
Is this a war or a police action? What is our military doing there? No strawman to spring but you continually avoid given justification with your feelings.
Your question involved Islamic government…at least that is what you posted earlier. And you wished to know how that served the US policy.
The answer is, it may not. But it does not have to. It is their government…not ours. Another indication that the Iraqis are getting what they want.
It is called comprehension and in context of my question regarding Islamic governments, by the very nature of a religious government I ask how that squares with our laws? Why are we creating for others what we would not have for ourselves? Is that so hard to understand? Is there hypocricy in establishing a religious government by America, hypocricy in placing troops in other nations without a declaration of war and maintaining bases there for decades.
I would think not taking a course of action that you know will lead to unjustified loss of life to fall well within the bounds of Catholicism. Has the church changed it’s stance on culpability?
There you go thinking again with support of Doctrine or US Law. Such was an action of going into Iraq in the first place that should have been prevented as it did not meet the Just War criteria. Why do you think we are more culpable to stay longer than for going in to begin with?
There have been several posts that gave specifics.
Were they not specific enough for you?
Obviously not since your only specific is to stay because we must. Maybe for the 5th time- please provide some reference.
 
If we cared about what they want we might have left 2 years ago.
Not necessarily. What the majority of the population wants isn’t always the best course for the nation. If the government wanted us to go, then I would say “pull out”. But the government has a better handle on the defense needs of Iraq. Which is not to say our presence and our actions aren’t major irritants - they are. But the government knows we are needed.
repeat an earlier unanswered question: For any reasonable imaginable- would you accept foreign combat forces and permanent foreign military bases in America with the blessings of our government?
Given the overwhelming strength of our military (the world’s superpower) I can’t imagine a situation such as that.
I’ll repeat another unanswered question: Can you reference Catholic Doctrine or US Law that makes staying just, or do they not matter in this case?
Honestly, this issue doesn’t matter enough to me to go looking. I’m content with the commonsense morality of “you broke it, you fix it”.
Will you honor their free elections if the vote in al Sadr or hama/Hexbollah type groups or will you then advocate another war to end the governments we created?
Of course I would honor the government. But if you remember, I was opposed to the invasion in the first place.
Can anyone explain to me how Islamic governments are in the interest and charter of America to create and promote?
Its not an issue I know much about. But I don’t think creating an Islamic government (and I’m not quite sure what that is) was the intention of the Bush administration.
 
Not necessarily. What the majority of the population wants isn’t always the best course for the nation. If the government wanted us to go, then I would say “pull out”. But the government has a better handle on the defense needs of Iraq. Which is not to say our presence and our actions aren’t major irritants - they are. But the government knows we are needed.
So the vote for majority rule is a myth in Iraq as it is in America? Voting is just for show because the elected president can act as a king doing what he thinks best, not what the people want. Please show me that in our Constitution.
Given the overwhelming strength of our military (the world’s superpower) I can’t imagine a situation such as that.
So it is ‘do unto others’ unless I am strong enough to impose my will on others because they are weak and we know better despite what I would not accpet for myslef? Did Jesus say something similar to that? The Pope? Our Constitution?
Honestly, this issue doesn’t matter enough to me to go looking. I’m content with the commonsense morality of “you broke it, you fix it”.
I always find it interesting when Catholics don’t care to apply the Gospels or other such teachings because they have concluded otherwise due to what they feel is common sense. Luther thought he had common sense too.

We broke it? How? By helping create it with the League of Nations 80+ yrs ago? By supporting the tyrant Saddam when he fought against Iran nearly 30 years ago? By doing a half-baked unjust war nearly 20 years ago, or the half-baked-war for the last 5 years?
Of course I would honor the government. But if you remember, I was opposed to the invasion in the first place.
So you would support a man who openly calls for war on America if he was voted in freely by the majority of the population? Really? Not that you support abiding by the majority if the elected people have a different idea as you noted above…correct?

Is that like voting against it before voting for it?
Its not an issue I know much about. But I don’t think creating an Islamic government (and I’m not quite sure what that is) was the intention of the Bush administration.
If you knew many Islamic governments supported killing converts from Islam, oppression of women and most things opposite of what our government is about would you support setting one up by use of our money and soldiers lives? Did we allow Germany to keep a Nazi party, or Japan to continue promoting their emporer is a god after we defeated them in battle? What was the intention of the Adminstration for an Iraqi government and back to our faith- where are we authorized to force to bring about good?
 
So the vote for majority rule is a myth in Iraq as it is in America? Voting is just for show because the elected president can act as a king doing what he thinks best, not what the people want. Please show me that in our Constitution.
I wasn’t talking about the US government - I’m not sure why you think I was. As for Iraq, if the people truly feel strongly about getting US troops out of the country, they will elect a government pledged to do that.
So it is ‘do unto others’ unless I am strong enough to impose my will on others because they are weak and we know better despite what I would not accpet for myslef? Did Jesus say something similar to that? The Pope? Our Constitution?
Where in the world are you getting that from what I said? :confused: You asked me to imagine a scenario where foreign troops were based on our soil. My response was that I can’t imagine that scenario. If our military were truly so weak that Canada posed an imminent threat to us, then I suppose it would make sense to have foreign troops to protect us. But really, the scenario is very far-fetched.
I always find it interesting when Catholics don’t care to apply the Gospels or other such teachings because they have concluded otherwise due to what they feel is common sense. Luther thought he had common sense too.
Huh? :confused:
If you think the Gospels or Church teaching are against US troops being in Iraq to secure its safety, please provide the citations.
We broke it? How?
By destroying their government, disbanding their military, and not leaving enough of our troops there to secure the peace. Iraq didn’t have a terrorist problem before the invasion, but they sure as heck did after our bungled administration of the country.
So you would support a man who openly calls for war on America if he was voted in freely by the majority of the population? Really? Not that you support abiding by the majority if the elected people have a different idea as you noted above…correct?
I get the distinct impression from this post that you are simply trying to be contentious. I said I support the legitimate government of another country. The people have a right to self-determination. Do other countries have a right to be hostile to the US? Sure. Would I support the US against them? Of course.
Is that like voting against it before voting for it?
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are just trying to score random points where ever you think you can find them?
If you knew many Islamic governments supported killing converts from Islam, oppression of women and most things opposite of what our government is about would you support setting one up by use of our money and soldiers lives?
Now you are talking about two different things. One is whether Islamic governments are to be permitted. I said yes. The other is whether some Islamic governments are abusive. That may well be true. Should abusive governments be opposed? Yes.
 
Not necessarily. What the majority of the population wants isn’t always the best course for the nation. If the government wanted us to go, then I would say “pull out”. But the government has a better handle on the defense needs of Iraq. Which is not to say our presence and our actions aren’t major irritants - they are. But the government knows we are needed.
I think that there is some confusion as to who wants what. Remember, whenever there is an overwhelming occupying force, governments lose legitmacy. Even so, it is Iraq that is resisting the US in its demands concerning the conditions of an ongoing occupation agreement. The US wants open ended, that is politically unacceptable in Iraq. The US wants blanket and perpetual immunity, that is also unacceptable to Iraqi’s at large - they, understandably, see groups like Blackwater as violent thugs who abuse their position outside any rule of law.
Its not an issue I know much about. But I don’t think creating an Islamic government (and I’m not quite sure what that is) was the intention of the Bush administration.
If we look at the principle architects of the war, there is little doubt what the original objective was. They are all overwhelmingly charter members of the Project for the New American Century, or PNAC, and have been writing about the need for a permanent US force in an oil rich part of the Middle East for more than a decade. On multiple occassions the group suggested that Iraq, with the no fly zones and Saddam, offered a good “excuse” to make the dream so.

The original plan was to install a friendly puppet government (remember Chalabi, the wanted felon who fed us all that false intelligence for buckets of money?). This may never have been possible, but it became utterly impossible when the administration spent almost two years living out a neoconservative fantasy. The country was flooded with young political hacks with no experience in actual infrastructure construction, and they wasted their time on nonesense like designing flat tax systems and building ubber-bases. Add incredibly bad ideas like dismantling the army and a “de-bathist” policy, along with spectacularly corrupt and ineffective reconstruction efforts, and it is small wonder that an insurgency took root.

Ignoring it for far too long, and fueling it with secret prisons, private thugs (like blackwater), and renditions and torture, and it is small wonder that chaos still runs rampant.

There are really only two certainties at this point: 1) Whatever happens, Iran is strengthened. Sunni dictator, Shia majority, it is inevitable, and was utterly predictable. 2) The US will remain at odds with the Church.

This second one is harder to understand but, again, virtually unavoidable. The Church, of course, strenously objected to the war. But, having engaged in ‘preventive’ war (which is not really permitted in either Church or international law), Rome and the USCCB noted we had some moral responsibilities, in particular, the plight of refugees, disproportionately Christian. But the only significant stability we have achieved has come, primarily, by essentially switching sides. Directly aiding the Sunni Awakening. We are basically arming milias and letting them ethnically cleanse (which includes persecuting Christians) and control areas. The central Iraqi government, such as it is, hates this, because it will inevitably come back to haunt them in ethnic conflict. But that government needs to be propped up by the US, so it is ineffective in changing it. On the flip side, the US cannot afford to do what is right, because we lack the capacity to instill or maintain order. So OBL sits in Pakistan making videos (and we leave him alone because we need Pakistan to stay in Iraq), Iran makes ties and provides aide to all Shia factions (we actually are more aligned with the groups receiving the most Iranian aide, not the least), and we have to placate Sunni warlords with direct aide because they can engage in Shia cleansing, which we cannot (it is essentially curtailing, say, AQI, which was only 2% of the insurgents, but a significant source of sectarian violence by driving all Shias from an area. Since the majority of the population is Shia, and we at least like to pretend we are interested in democracy and liberty, we have to do regional ethnic cleansing by proxy. But, since that is what we need to keep the peace, we cannot follow the Church, which is not interested in US politics or strategic political interestes, but the natural law and the inalienable rights of the human person.

Something to keep in mind is that as long as we engage in the torture of detainees (and the standard in the Catechism is international law (CCC 2313), Just War is impossible. Even George Weigel has publicly acknolwedged this. In that case, we cannot be a licit occupying force. We are, instead, an “unjust agressor”.

Similiarly, the persecution of refugees and their forced dislocation/deportation, is proibited by the Pastoral Constition of the Church. It is an inalienable right, bestowed by God (it also happens to be the foundation of JPII’s teaching on abortion). So our complicency in it again makes our occupation unjust.

There is no reason to try to pretend that a moral imperitive is what is at stake. Again, look at the conflict over an agreement. What are the sticking points? The current administration wants to stay forever and operate outside any rule of Iraqi law. This is a bad idea about promoting US strategic interest militarily, combined with domestic politics. Pretending it is a moral issue just prevents us from reasonably assessing the effectivness of the policies for what they are.
 
INow you are talking about two different things. One is whether Islamic governments are to be permitted. I said yes. The other is whether some Islamic governments are abusive. That may well be true. Should abusive governments be opposed? Yes.
Now I am really confused. Most people would agree that, say, beating a 50 year old unarmed man to death in a sleeping bag, or torture crucifying someone on wholly circumstancial evidence would be ‘abuse of power’. Does that mean you find the resistance ot US occupation just?

There are no good guys, no white hats. Once we resorted to torture, and private hit squads outside even the code of military justice, we became just another thug in the fray - and a surprisingly ineffective one at that, considering the horrific cost in blood and treasure.
 
Most people would agree that, say, beating a 50 year old unarmed man to death in a sleeping bag, or torture crucifying someone on wholly circumstancial evidence would be ‘abuse of power’. Does that mean you find the resistance ot US occupation just?
I suppose that would depend what “resistance” consisted of. Certainly it would be legitimate to oppose the presence of US troops and to seek, politically, the removal of them.
 
I wasn’t talking about the US government - I’m not sure why you think I was. As for Iraq, if the people truly feel strongly about getting US troops out of the country, they will elect a government pledged to do that.
Iraq seems to have done so a number of years ago but the Iraqi government won’t listen to its people. America is not much different now. A majority of Americans want the war to end, to drill off the coats and in Alaska for oil, to build more nuclear power plants and refineries. The only reason these things do not happen depiste the wishes of the American public is a government not listening to the public, but instead listening to special interests and a presidency that has devolved into a monarchy that makes unilateral decisions without the consent of the people.
Where in the world are you getting that from what I said? :confused: You asked me to imagine a scenario where foreign troops were based on our soil. My response was that I can’t imagine that scenario. If our military were truly so weak that Canada posed an imminent threat to us, then I suppose it would make sense to have foreign troops to protect us. But really, the scenario is very far-fetched.
Then we differ in a basic principle. I don’t care how weak the federal government is I would not tolerate under any circumstance Chinese (as example) troops in America doing what American troops are doing in Iraq.
Huh? :confused:
If you think the Gospels or Church teaching are against US troops being in Iraq to secure its safety, please provide the citations.
I have been asking since the begining of this thread for those who support a continued presence in Iraq to justify it without success, and now you ask me to prove the reverse. Fine:
1 Corinthians 4:21What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?
Why do you think Paul gives this choice in his letter?
Luke 22:38
The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.
Why did Jesus say two were enough?
Luke 9:54-56 54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Examples are numerous that tell us violence in response to evil is not ours to commit even for what you think is a noble purrpose. As Catholic Christians Jesus is our example. If you can give an example of His that somehow would support our troops in Iraq- or anywhere- please provide it.
By destroying their government, disbanding their military, and not leaving enough of our troops there to secure the peace. Iraq didn’t have a terrorist problem before the invasion, but they sure as heck did after our bungled administration of the country.
We destroyed it with the help of the world for 10 years under UN Oil4Food sanctions before the current war but after the first war. We have been meddling in their and others affairs for generations. Wouldn’t non-intervention be a better plan for America? At least we would not be the direct cause of the hurt.
I get the distinct impression from this post that you are simply trying to be contentious. I said I support the legitimate government of another country. The people have a right to self-determination. Do other countries have a right to be hostile to the US? Sure. Would I support the US against them? Of course.
No, I just can’t understand the seeming hypocricy. I mentioned a specific person, al Sadr, and why you would call him legitimate even if he was freely elected and give material support to spew his hate against us is baffling.
Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are just trying to score random points where ever you think you can find them?
It isn’t a game of points but of ideology and integrity. You say you are against the war to begin with but now support it because we made a mess. If you are against it why not just be against it?
Now you are talking about two different things. One is whether Islamic governments are to be permitted. I said yes. The other is whether some Islamic governments are abusive. That may well be true. Should abusive governments be opposed? Yes.
Why is America in the business of creating governments for other people to begin with? Is an Islamic government in line with Catholicism or the US Constitution? You said above you think others have the right to self determination so why not actually give it to them?
 
I suppose that would depend what “resistance” consisted of. Certainly it would be legitimate to oppose the presence of US troops and to seek, politically, the removal of them.
So you reject St. Thomas Aquinas theology of self defense, or the Catechism’s provisions for licid resistance against oppression?

After all, how would a political resolution be possible? We are talking about military occupation by a foreign power. Are you saying that the proper response to Nazi occupation in WW-II would have been to use the political process instead of force? France should have just voted them away? I’m sure that everyone who died at Normandy would have preferred that option…

If it sounds like I’m being nasty, I am. The problem in these sorts of discussions are that we are, in general woefully uniformed about the region or even the nature of the conflict. Also, we do not like seeing ourselves in the role of the ‘bad guy’. But, when you support genocide, directly use torture, and are an unwelcome occupying force, you have to accept the fact that, to hundreds of millions of devout Catholics around the world - folks who do not have US nationalist pride, we are the bad guys. And, whenever you find yourself on the ‘bad’ side in a conversation involing Saddam, you know you have pretty much lost any moral high ground.
 
Preventing senseless murder where possible is a Christian duty.
Then why did we ignore Rome’s and the USCCB’s pleas regarding our obligation to refugees and ending our support for ethnic cleansing and genocide?

Are we now claiming to be more Christian than the Magesterium?
 
There are few things I can think of that are a greater harm then genocide.
SoCalRC asks a good question but further to a point, do you think America is acting in a Christian manner and more importantly should we as Americans project such a notion to the world so that when our military is engaged by an enemy, the enemy is fighting against Christian ethics and morals?
 
SoCalRC asks a good question but further to a point, do you think America is acting in a Christian manner and more importantly should we as Americans project such a notion to the world so that when our military is engaged by an enemy, the enemy is fighting against Christian ethics and morals?
It all depends upon your definition of “Christian”. Remember, we in the US a deeply Protestant nation. I am old enough to remember when anti-Catholicism was overt.

In theory, Catholics share much in common with Protestants. If one reads, say, C.S. Lewis’ MERE CHRISTIANITY there is seeminly a lot of common ground between us and Evangelicalism as well. But in practice, the gap is often huge.

The political religious conservatism in the US is predominantly an extreme form of Evangelical Protestantism. Much as Protestants have determined that our Church heirarchy and concept of apostolic authority is not nec. for ‘Christians’, these evangelicals have determined that Christ’s actual ministry is not nec. either. At the risk of oversimplification, they believe that it is more important to accept Jesus Divine nature than, say, heed his actual words in Luke or Matthew.

So, if your concept of Christianity is ‘I’m one of the good people, everyone who disagrees with us is one of the bad people’, then, presumably one could argue that killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people through unilateral preventive war, causing millions of refugees to suffer, and violating US and international law in the abuse and killing of detainees is ‘Christian’, because you are simply an instrument of God. Much they way that a mentally ill person might think that God is telling him to burn things (and can we be sure that God is not? Some of the prophets in the Bible were clearly a tad ‘unusual’ by the behavioral standards of their time, but I digress).

If, on the other hand, you accept that, say, the Gospels have relevance, it becomes a lot less clear. They are, after all, a tad out of sync with US popular culture. For example, none of Synoptic Gospels have the just resurrected Jesus seeking vengence - though I am sure that many US conservatives would be more comfortable with a Jesus who approached Pilate and said, Clint Eastwood style, ‘When you cruicify a man, you better make sure you finish the job…’, just before blowing him away.

And, of course, if you are a Catholic, the wiggle room is narrower still. We profess, each week, to believe that we are a Holy and Apostolic Church. That is, our bishops, in communion with the Pope, are “authentic teachers with the authority of Christ”. So it hasn’t just been a couple of old guys pleading with us to not go to war, or to stop being party to unjust persecution, it is an authentic representative of Christ.

Though, of course, many US Catholics forget this, presumably becuase they spend so much time immersed in Evangelical Protestant culture.
 
Then we differ in a basic principle. I don’t care how weak the federal government is I would not tolerate under any circumstance Chinese (as example) troops in America doing what American troops are doing in Iraq.
Okay, I can accept our difference on this matter. Perhaps it underlies all our our disagreements.
I have been asking since the begining of this thread for those who support a continued presence in Iraq to justify it without success, and now you ask me to prove the reverse. Fine:
Why do you think Paul gives this choice in his letter?
Because he believes it is better to treat one another with kindness rather than hostility. I agree with him.
Why did Jesus say two were enough?
Because violence is not what Christianity is about.
Examples are numerous that tell us violence in response to evil is not ours to commit even for what you think is a noble purrpose.
Are you a pacifist?
As Catholic Christians Jesus is our example. If you can give an example of His that somehow would support our troops in Iraq- or anywhere- please provide it.
Jesus on many occasions came to the defense of the weak and persecuted, stopping aggression and offering help.
We destroyed it with the help of the world for 10 years under UN Oil4Food sanctions before the current war but after the first war. We have been meddling in their and others affairs for generations. Wouldn’t non-intervention be a better plan for America? At least we would not be the direct cause of the hurt.
The sanctions greatly hurt the Iraqi people. It was a slow hard squeze on them. I am tempted to say that during the Gulf War we should have continued on into Iraq after evicting the Iraqi troops from Kuwait. But after the mess we have made of Iraq during this current conflict, I am not sure that would have been better.
No, I just can’t understand the seeming hypocricy. I mentioned a specific person, al Sadr, and why you would call him legitimate even if he was freely elected and give material support to spew his hate against us is baffling.
There is no hypocrisy - each nation has a right to self-determination. If the people of one country elect a government which is hostile to ours, then our countries will be hostile to one another. But this doesn’t take away the right of self-determination.
It isn’t a game of points but of ideology and integrity. You say you are against the war to begin with but now support it because we made a mess. If you are against it why not just be against it?
Because we didn’t have good cause to invade. But once we did invade and made a mess of things, the moral character of the conflict(s) changed. It is now our responsibility to restore Iraq.
Why is America in the business of creating governments for other people to begin with? Is an Islamic government in line with Catholicism or the US Constitution? You said above you think others have the right to self determination so why not actually give it to them?
I don’t think America should be in the business of creating governments. We shouldn’t have invaded Iraq. But once we created anarchy, we have a responsibility to restore a stable government.
 
So you reject St. Thomas Aquinas theology of self defense, or the Catechism’s provisions for licid resistance against oppression?
No, I just am not sure that is the situation which Iraqis face.
After all, how would a political resolution be possible? We are talking about military occupation by a foreign power. Are you saying that the proper response to Nazi occupation in WW-II would have been to use the political process instead of force? France should have just voted them away? I’m sure that everyone who died at Normandy would have preferred that option…
You seem to be comparing the American presence in Iraq to Nazi Germany. I don’t think we are oppressing Iraqis, but are trying to help them.
The problem in these sorts of discussions are that we are, in general woefully uniformed about the region or even the nature of the conflict.
I agree.
Also, we do not like seeing ourselves in the role of the ‘bad guy’.
I agree.
But, when you support genocide, directly use torture, and are an unwelcome occupying force, you have to accept the fact that, to hundreds of millions of devout Catholics around the world - folks who do not have US nationalist pride, we are the bad guys.
I am appalled by the Bush administration’s countenance of torture. Could you explain why you accuse the US of genocide?
And, whenever you find yourself on the ‘bad’ side in a conversation involing Saddam, you know you have pretty much lost any moral high ground.
We lost the moral high ground when we invaded Iraq.
 
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