Trouble Converting

[sainteriksrose]

As we know, Jesus is the Word of God made Man, Who ALWAYS existed, even before He was born. (John 1)

We also know that Mary called God her Savior before He was born. (Luke 1)

So then, we know that Christ’s conception is NOT the beginning of His existence. As Catholics, we believe that God prevented original sin from staining the soul of His mother at her conception.

Personally, I don’t understand why this is difficult to understand. Adam and Eve were created sinless, only they blew it. Whereas Mary ALWAYS cooperated with God’s grace, and since she is a human like the rest of us, she set a perfect example for the rest of us. (Matthew 5:48)

 

[2towers]

Welcome to the Church, and may our Lord bless your journey.
With regard to our Lady being sinless, I often find this struggle perplexing. Why? Well few dispute or even think of disputing the Miracles our Lord and his Father did. Add to that, our Lord and the Father value purity a great deal. We must be pure to enter Heaven.

Why then is a sinless Mary such a stretch in light of all that? Should we expect anything, and I mean ANYTHING less from the Mother of God then for the Mother of all redemption to be pure and sinless?

How could something as perfect as Jesus Christ arrive by imperfect means? It just makes sense to me. To me it makes less sense that she would be a sinner than to be pure.

pax

 

[JesusReigns]

Truly awesome material guys…i am definitely growing stronger in this. However, i have found some troubling evidence and not sure what to make of it. I understand the Church Fathers were not necessarily infallible, but still some writings trouble me. Like these: (Keep in mind of course i understand there is anti-catholic propaganda, false quotes etc. out there.)

http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/10/the-early-church-did-not-believe-romes.html

This second source has ALOT of writings that are troubling, but misinterpreted as well i will say…

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Mary.html

 

[JesusReigns]

Great answers! What do you make of ECF on oaths? Early Christian Dictionary

 

[2towers]

Do you believe that Jesus was Holy? How could Holiness have been born from something less than perfect?

But how could she have been conceived sinless in the very womb?

How could Jesus have turned water into wine? How was God able to part the Red Sea?
How was Passover possible? Why is it that we believe all this scripture, and when it comes to the Mother of God, suddenly we become skeptics? It is called bias. Bias against the mother of Christ the Redeemer.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Great answers! What do you make of ECF on oaths?

Not much. Ask yourself the place of oaths in today’s society: When do you take an oath?
oath of citizenship; oath in court if you’re a witness or a juror; oath when joining the military; oath of office when you assume duties as a gov. official.

So when would you be required to take an oath as a Roman citizen? I’m not sure you ever would. Maybe in a court proceeding. So then you have to ask yourself what types of “oaths” are these early sources talking about? If there weren’t any “official” oaths, all that’s left is unofficial personal oaths–the butcher saying “By God, I swear this is fresh meat.” This is an entirely different kettle of fish (or fresh meat!).

 

[Erikaspirit16]

However, i have found some troubling evidence and not sure what to make of it. I understand the Church Fathers were not necessarily infallible, but still some writings trouble me. Like these: (Keep in mind of course i understand there is anti-catholic propaganda, false quotes etc. out there.)

I read most, but not all ot it. They’re all saying the same things, and they’re all ignoring crucial points.

First, it’s like trying to analyze the Affordable Care Act and only reading what Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have to say about it. Would that make sense? Maybe if you voted for Trump, but not if you’re a rational person.

Second, it ignores completely the principal that dogma develops over time. Today we might be very precise if we were discussing the immaculate conception. We are aware of all the past controversies: does it apply only to personal sins? in what sense was Mary “sinless”? Was Mary redeemed by Christ’s death even if she had no original sin (yes–a sort of pre-redemption)? If Mary was sinless from conception, does that mean she had Sanctifying grade from conception? If it does, how? Etc. Etc.

All of these authors are discussing some other topic, not specifically the immaculate conception of Mary. Do they allude to it? Sure. Do they explain in detail? No, of course not. And this is what the Protestant apologists are leaping on, the failure to explain in 21st century detail.

To use one of my much-beloved analogies, it’s like saying Darwin’s theory of evolution didn’t take genetic mutation into account. Well, yes and no. Darwin didn’t know anything about the genetic work of Mendel, so no, he didn’t have all the details. But did he suggest that there was a mechanism like genetic mutation involved? Sure. So if you ask “Did Darwin write about genetic mutation?” you could answer honestly either way, but if you left out the details in each answer, your answer would be incomplete and misleading.

This is what the early Christian writers are doing with the Immaculate Conception. Was the idea floating around back then that Mary was somehow special in her “sinlessness” (whatever that meant to the early authors)? Sure. Was the idea stated in theological precision that would satisfy a Vatican commission? Of course not. It’s silly to expect that.

 

[PJM]

Dear FRIEND in Christ,
I’m a Catholic Catechist with about 30 years of experience.

The issue of Mary’s sinlessness stems from the unmerited ACTUAL graces Her Son, Jesus choose to offer Her. It is NOTABLE that Christ as SON of GOD, could have chosen to be born through a sinful creature; BUT He-God choose to hold the position that such would not be fitting for God. … Mary would later “merit”; meaning only justify Jesus own faith in His Mother by accepting all graces offered, and freely choosing, no matter the degree of suffering, never to sin.

Behind God’s choice to do this [and this WAS Gods choice, not Mary’s], was the very natures of God and sin.

God can be briefly described as “ALL GOOD THINGS PERFCTED”

Lev.22: 21 And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfil a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it
Matt.5: 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect
Space is VERY limited here so it’s difficult to offer a fuller explanation

It was GODS decision to be conceived by the Holy Ghost, in a Virgin & sinless womb. This means born without Original sin which is GOD directly imposed/ What God can do; GOD can also undo.

“Sin” results from our minds, intellects and freewill. Sin is a willful rejection of a Godly Law. So one can choose to sin as well as NOT to sin, which is what Mary, flooded with Graces that She accepted & used to choose, from the age of “Reason” onward, always NOT to sin. Mary was a YOUNG teenage girl [guesstimated to have been 15-16] when she became the Mother of GOD. This was a different time & culture.

Sinlessness may sound impossible; and without God’s grace it is; but in order to attain the Beatific Vision the Soul has to either be PERFECT upon death or perfected through Purgatory. So ALL of the Saints & saints in heaven are PERFECT. And many even today have led large parts of their lives sinless.

We ought NOT to minimize God’s grace and its effect on Mary. The practice of any religion relies on FAITH. Heb.11: Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. … God never intended for everything to be comprehensible through human logic. Isa.55: 8 – 9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. …Much of every religion relies on faith to differing degrees.

God’s Power over man’s sins is made evident is Sacramental Baptism where no matter how sin-stained that soul may be; rightly received and administered that soul is made literally PERFRECT.

So dear friend, have FAITH & pray very much

Please SEE:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/35q8kw/marys_sinlessness

Oaths reply on a separate POST

GBY, Patrick [PJM]

 

[PJM]

JesusReigns

Hello all. May God bless those richly who read and have answers and lead us all to Truth as we converse, in Jesus name, Amen.

So im in RCIA. I basically grew up pentecostal/church of god and right now im having some trouble with specific catholic beliefs that worry me. It’s mainly two honestly that hold me back:
2. Oaths. The bible on two occasions says not to sear by Oaths. and some early fathers said not to. I’ve been told this hyperbole and understand what the catechism says on the issue, but im honestly in fear that God will be angry at me brushing this off and not adhering to what Jesus said about oaths and as did the book of James pretty blatantly[/END QUOTE]
Dear friend In Christ,

Again I NOTE that space is limited, so while I shall an attempt to address your concerns; this site is well worth reading:

What does the Church teach regarding oaths? - Catholic Straight Answers

In His Sermon on the Mount, as recorded in the Gospel of St. Matthew, our Lord taught, “You have heard the commandment imposed on your forefathers, ‘Do not take a false oath; rather, make good to the Lord all your … Continued

catholicstraightanswers.com

Your sincerity is just what Jesus is seeking from each of us. Thank you for this fine example
“When you make a vow to [and through] the Lord, your God, you shall not delay in fulfilling it; otherwise you will be held guilty, for the Lord, your God, is strict in requiring it of you. …But you must keep your solemn word and fulfill the votive offering you have freely promised to the Lord” (Deuteronomy 23:22, 24).

The man who swears by the temple is swearing by it and by Him who dwells there” (Matthew 23:16-21).

Matt.5: 37 Let what you say be simply Yes' or No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
Swearing an Oath in the Catholic Faith means simply to make a precisely worded pre-mediated commitment through & to God. Oaths are rooted in the 2nd and 8th [Catholic] Commandments.

God’s expectations for the Oath giver is to fulfill said Oath fully and precisely as it is a covenant with our God, as His warranty has been invoked.

THAT Said: Jesus will, because was GOD He must, pass Judgment upon each of us based upon not what WE choose to know, accept, live; RATHER it will be on what God has made possible for us to know, accept and live.

So pre-knowledge of the commitments [Oaths] seriousness raises the issue of culpability which can be diminished by ignorance or carelessness.

Oaths like TRUTH itself which is the bedrock of the Catholic Faith are expected by our God to be sought and accepted. Catechism of the RCC #’s 1781-1784

Fear Not: God meets each of us where we are in our faith walks, and gently [usually] nudges us forward.

All that is expected is to KEEP our promises when we invoke GOD as out witness to this act.
There is no Catholic admonition NOT to take an Oath.

Pray much my friend and keep asking these great questions. I co-taught RCIA for 3 years before I retired and KNOW one does not get all of the answers there.

Patrick

 

[almost2]

I don’t think that the

Counsel of Trent made these 2 issues mandatory.

I’m sure you will find other issues.