Trouble explaining Apostolic Succession

[pablope]

I’m sorry you had to spend so many words on this because you missed my point, which is the natural man cannot understand nor is he able and that appears to be the vast majority of Christianity which is why you can ask a “Christian” you get a multitude of different answers and basic truths/doctrines. On more complex truths/doctrines you can expect some disagreement, but that is not the context of our discussion here.

God bless you.

Hmmm…seems like you do not want to answer the questions I asked? I thought you had answers to all, in the Bible…yet you are evading now?

 

[pablope]

You must be be confused with OT Israel as a theocracy and NT preaching of the gospel as to commingled the two in a way that hardly makes any argument to an Apostolic succession coming from Peter or any other of the apostles and use a lot of words to do so. It also shows a lack of what the church is and what it is not.

There is an apostolic succession in the Bible; not spelled out directly per se, but rather indirectly as the Apostles and other apostles(Barnabas, Silas and Timothy as examples) that were sent to appoint Elders, not Priests, but Elders to oversee the new churches which were springing up everywhere the gospel was being preached as GOD added to their number.

 

[ChrisCath]

The proper handling of Authority is a crucial teaching (IMO) of the Bible.

A summary of how it all works from a (Catholic) biblical perspective:
Authority in the Bible

And for the priesthood issue, there is a distinction between the ministerial priesthood and the universal priesthood so often emphasized in Protestantism.
Another good summary of both Priesthoods with biblical citations

 

[fred_conty]

Always difficult to pass along that which is not in Scripture. God alone can forgive sins as stated in Scripture just the same as there is only one intercessor between man and God, the God-Man Jesus Christ. Do you know of any other intercessors contained in the entire Word? No.

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for making Himself to be God - how? By the forgiving of sins. Find one instant in the entire Bible where an ordinary man, such as an Apostle, said I forgive your sins; it was always in the Name or by the authority of Jesus - GOD.

Very Very Protestant? What does that mean? Please do not answer I found the statement somewhat amusing/interesting. I am considered protestant, but Christian is what I am. I have been predestined before time to be adopted as a son by God to whom I cry out often as Father or dad. Read Ephesians chapter 1 and if it is not one of the most comforting and glorious things you have ever read, then I hope one day it will. God bless.

A Gift, you mentioned,
“… there is only one intercessor between man and God, the God-Man Jesus Christ. Do you know of any other intercessors contained in the entire Word? No.”

I applaud you and thank you for that wonder statement, very christian, and also very catholic.

You also said,
“Find one instant in the entire Bible where an ordinary man, such as an Apostle, said I forgive your sins; it was always in the Name or by the authority of Jesus - GOD.”

Again I applaud you and thank you for that.

That is exactly the way it is, we have one and only one mediator to forgive our sins and only one intercessor between man and God, and that is Jesus Christ.

You stated exactly and clearly what the catholic faith has alway said, there is only one mediator, the alpha and the omega, containing all power in heaven and on earth.

The intercessor is Jesus Christ, and especially this role is exlemplified on the cross.
And what the catholic faith teaches is that the Mass is Jesus Christ offering himself again
in a renewal and re-presentation thru his adminstrator to bring this to everyone down thru time. The adminstrator, the priest, is not the one who died on the cross but merely a man to be used in the persona of Jesus himself. When the mass is carried out, the priest is the instrument thru which Jesus uses to bring this sacrificial lamb offering to the Father and to us,his Body.
.
Like a painter using a brush to complete his work.

And in the case of forgiving sins, again there is only one who can forgive sins and both of us know who that is. Therefore the priest is used only as a tool of Jesus to communicate his forgiveness but it is Jesus who is doing the forgiveness, for the priest is merely a man.

But priesthood of Jesus, tho unique, is performed thru others, that is, those who have had hands laid on them by the original Apostle’s and later by non-original Apostles named bishops to distinguish them for the originals. They in turn laid hands on men making them presbyters,later called priests. These were designated to carry on with the “breaking of the bread”, the original sacrificial meal of the Lamb of God, down thru the centuries, so that all may share in the cross of Jesus’ blessings, “…the blood which will be shed for many.”

Thank you for you wonderful comments.

I just want to admit, like you I can’t find any Apostle or Presbyter who forgave sins in the N.T.

But Jeus did say, “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven…” to men after the resurrection.
Now why would Jesus do that if He didn’t intend for them to use it.

And of course there is the passage where it says, and I’m not quoting exactly, “if there is anyone among you who is sick, let him bring in the Presbters of the church, and let them annoint the sick man, and if he be in sin, he will be forgiven.” Looks to me like forgiveness.
And it is the catholic church who does, to this day, the annointing of the sick.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[inkaneer]

A Gift, you mentioned,
“… there is only one intercessor between man and God, the God-Man Jesus Christ. Do you know of any other intercessors contained in the entire Word? No.”

I applaud you and thank you for that wonder statement, very christian, and also very catholic.

Hold the phone. Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. There is a difference between an intercessor and a mediator. A mediator does not take any side between two parties while an intercessor takes the side of the one requesting intercession. Merriam & Websters dictionary gives the following definitions:

intercession: prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another.

mediation: intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise

That is why we can pray for another, intercede for them, but we cannot mediate their problem. Only Jesus can mediate their problem with God. Don’t confuse the terminology.

 

[A_Gift]

The fantasy that each is inspired by the Holy Spirit to interpret for themselves is exploded by the 40,000 differing sects that subjectively follow what they choose – this demonstrates the reality of the inanity.

1. The first error is to feel that Christ gave us the Sacred Scriptures. He wrote nothing but by establishing His Church with His authority, He gave Her the power to define what writings from the OT, and those written by Catholics form the NT, which form the Sacred Scriptures, without which no one would have any Bible.
2. The second error is to deny Christ when He established His Church and no other.
3. The third error is to ignore history.

The second error is demeaning Christ in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The third error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

Again how can one argue with one who knows not the Word of God - answer - you can’t; therefore we agree to disagree with God being on my side since I know the word of God. Also, there are many divisions within Catholicism and you already know that or do you?

Anyway - nice talking with you and I wish you the best.

 

[A_Gift]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well you do not know your scripture very well. God has always had an earthy leader for His people Call him Abraham or Moses or David or the Davidic kings or any of the prophets or call him Peter. The fact is scripture is resplendid with examples of an earthly leader for the church whether it be Old Testament or New. So who is doing the twisting here? Maybe you should be the one praying for wisdom.
A Gift;9239372:

You must be be confused with OT Israel as a theocracy and NT preaching of the gospel as to commingled the two in a way that hardly makes any argument to an Apostolic succession coming from Peter or any other of the apostles and use a lot of words to do so. It also shows a lack of what the church is and what it is not.

There is an apostolic succession in the Bible; not spelled out directly per se, but rather indirectly as the Apostles and other apostles(Barnabas, Silas and Timothy as examples) that were sent to appoint Elders, not Priests, but Elders to oversee the new churches which were springing up everywhere the gospel was being preached as GOD added to their number.

QUOTE]

You missed it, a complete swing and a miss. Therefore I will spell it out for you. Have you ever heard that the OT is a foreshadowing of the NT and the NT is a perfection of the OT??? Do they teach these things in your church? God’s church in the OT was His chosen people, Israel. Israel worshipped God and God gave to Israel earthy rulers. Abraham, Moses David and the Davidic kings of which Jesus is one. So why should it be different in the NT. If anything it should be perfected in the NT. And so it is. Peter is given the keys of authority Mt 16:18-19 and Peter is told to rule the flock John 21:16 . Once again you missed it on APostolic succession. It is spelled out directly in Acts 1 starting with verse 15. Peter calls for someone to succeed to Judas’ office and Matthias becomes the first bishop. And those elders were priests. Look up the etymology of the word priest and you will find it comes from the Latin word presbyter

which is derived from the Greek presbyteros.

They are called Pastors, Overseers, and Elders (you made my point) and are used interchangeably in the NT and have been appointed by God and men since the church began on the day of Pentecost. You will not find priest assigned since each Christian part of the “royal priesthood of believers”, which is the another phrase God used to describe the "body of Christ, with Christ as both our high Priest and head of the church. He needs no help from man does he?

 

[A_Gift]

I see I am being scrutinized - thought something was wrong with the site, then I saw the moderator thing.

Don’t bother posting anything this was something I stumbled upon and don’t really have much time to visit anyway.

Something to think about. Are you a saint? According to your religion if you say you are, then you are anathema (I recently discovered this, which explains why it takes a long time for someone to be called a saint officially by your church) The implication is that you cannot call yourself a saint, only a Catholic. But what is a saint? A Christian. Something to think about - I did.

 

[A_Gift]

I am unable to post; therefore I have cancelled this subscription and will not be able to address anything - sorry and may God bless all of you!!