Trouble with anti-Catholic book/website

[Church_Militant]

url]www.confrontingcatholicism.com

It is the part about the Assumption of our Blessed Mother–how no one talked about it for like 300 years. Does not seem possible it could have happened and people not talk about it all the time.
This is something we have to believe though–right??
I am also not so sure about the venerating of images. It seems like early Christians were really opposed to it.
I do not want to leave the Church–I am not going to–but as I become more than a “cafeteria Catholic”–I really want to believe

Is the Catholic Church the first church?

As a matter of fact, yes it is.

Historically you cannot trace any other Christians to the New Testament era. The fact that the historically verifiable writings of the earliest of church fathers show a very clear Catholic interpretation of the scriptures. For Instance: Look at what Ignatius of Antioch wrote to Polycarp’s church in Smyrna about the Eucharist.

How did the earliest Christians view Mary?

This is called an argument from silence, but I have an answer for that as well

Did the early church have a Papacy?

Church & Papacy

Did the early Christians venerate images?

Yeah, it’s called Iconoclasm. I deal with this here.

What were their views on Apostolic Succession?

Actually this one is very simple. Look here at Acts 1:15-26.

What does the Bible say about these matters?

I think I just showed most of that, but there is another serious problem here.

Does everything that Christians believe and practice have to be in the Bible? If so, then where is that specifically stated in the Bible?

The fact is that it’s not. Here’s an excellent (FREE!) MP3 Bible study that deals with this. Sola Scriptura - The Bible Alone?

Before you convert to Catholicism, get the answers!!

[SIGN]**Hey! By all means! **[/SIGN]

The website your priest does not want you to read!

The website BD Howard does not want you to read!

IF you are considering a conversion to Catholicism, take the time to read this site first. It is not always an easy read. I welcome all questions and thank you ahead of time.

BD Howard

Sensational closing there don’tcha think? Frankly, it was dudes like this that kept me digging and were used by the Holy Spirit to bring me home to the Catholic faith much to the endless chagrin of many a-Cs since then! :extrahappy:

 

[Church_Militant]

YADA,
Thanks for the welcome. You are right I might learn as we all learn everyday. Sway is not the point the point might be to save someone you, me, them we’ll see how it all works out. May God Bless Us All
Doug

You got a lot to learn…

 

[JeanneH]

Hi Mason

I am also not so sure about the venerating of images. It seems like early Christians were really opposed to it.

It amazes me that people can think that Catholics are dopey enough to venerate a statue.

We do not venerate images, we venerate the persons/saints the images represents.

Jeanne

 

[Mason1971]

Hi Mason

I am also not so sure about the venerating of images. It seems like early Christians were really opposed to it.

It amazes me that people can think that Catholics are dopey enough to venerate a statue.

We do not venerate images, we venerate the persons/saints the images represents.

Jeanne

Maybe I did not say it right. I am so used to it–images. It FREAKS out other people. Lot of reading to do. Thanks for links
Thanks

 

[dougfreed]

I thought GOD was the only one we should VENERATE. Are the persons/saints more powerful than Jesus Christ? Hmmm, NO!!! These persons/saints jobs were to GLORIFY The Father Almighty as they did now they are dead to pray to/through them would mean they have power of some sort, The Trinity is the only one who still lives.

Did Jesus not say the only way to the father is through me?
John 14:6

Hi Mason
I am also not so sure about the venerating of images. It seems like early Christians were really opposed to it.

It amazes me that people can think that Catholics are dopey enough to venerate a statue.

We do not venerate images, we venerate the persons/saints the images represents.

Jeanne

 

[RobHom]

I thought GOD was the only one we should VENERATE.

You confuse the word “Venerate” with the word “WORSHIP”. You should spend a couple of minutes studying the meaning of the word “venerate” at the link you provided… or at this link:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/venerate There is a “significant” difference, though I suspect that you don’t actually understand the differences.

Are the persons/saints more powerful than Jesus Christ? Hmmm, NO!!!

On that point we agree. All Catholics would agree with you, therefore its a “moot point”.

These persons/saints jobs were to GLORIFY The Father Almighty as they did

Ok, no problem there…

now they are dead to pray to/through them would mean they have power of some sort,

Here is where the “learning curve begins”…and it will require you to actually do some reading. In the course of your reading and learning…you will begin to find out that much of what you have learned in the past…was only part of the complete truth. I do not say that brashly, but only factually. There is “Biblical” justification for “Intercessory Prayer”…read at this link:

newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm

The Trinity is the only one who still lives.

Did Jesus not say the only way to the father is through me?
John 14:6

We know all of this, as it is truth. Yes, Christ did say that. Now let me ask you a question… Do YOU understand and believe what Christ “HIMSELF” said in John 4:11-14…??? In other words do you deny or accept that works are necessary for salvation?

Please do read all of the information at the link above…it will explain much to you, and it should settle the question. Please read with an open mind…not preconceived notions.

 

[Mason1971]

Rob–It rips the Infancy Gospel and nails us for using it. This site uses it!
So don’t diss it too much
When I asked about the catacombs–He said that the catacombs are late 2nd century–gave some quotes from archeology text books that disputes what you read on internet–
and then said no evidence they used them in worship etc etc.

Not defending–stating what is said. I have to be accurate–I cant live with myself unless I honestly look at it. I disagree with–95 percent of it–its that 5 percent that seems to be playing with my head a little.
Nights are bad for me and doubts. I was much more sold this morning at mass.
Might have just solved my problem! Stay off the computer at night

 

[fbl9]

I thought GOD was the only one we should VENERATE. Are the persons/saints more powerful than Jesus Christ? Hmmm, NO!!! These persons/saints jobs were to GLORIFY The Father Almighty as they did now they are dead to pray to/through them would mean they have power of some sort, The Trinity is the only one who still lives.

Did Jesus not say the only way to the father is through me?
John 14:6

… the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead,hopefully you got this through…is it not more effiecint to ask one who is face to face to God to pray for you than one still clothed in the weak flesh?actually the only person of the trinity who became flesh is Christ,not the Father or the Holy Spirit…no one ever said the saints are more than Christ…and now the saints share in God’s glory…for they are glorified through Christ…St. John 17:22"and the glory that thou hast given Me,I have given to them…"try again please

 

[Church_Militant]

I thought GOD was the only one we should VENERATE.

Your definition of veneration is messed up. Better look at the other definitions behind that first one. Veneration and adoration are two different things. Especially, in Catholic teaching.

Are the persons/saints more powerful than Jesus Christ? Hmmm, NO!!! These persons/saints jobs were to GLORIFY The Father Almighty as they did now they are dead to pray to/through them would mean they have power of some sort, The Trinity is the only one who still lives.

This is complete nonsense. The saints in heaven do nothing BUT glorify God and any response to prayers to them is only by God’s permission and power. God needs no help of course…but you have obviously missed the glaring fact that even though God needs no help, that He plainly chooses to use His angels and saints to deal with His people on Earth. Again, God needs no help, yet He used various apostles and members of His church as well as water, spit, mud, words, and other tangible things to effect miracles of healing. How you missed all this in scripture is a surprise to me.

Did Jesus not say the only way to the father is through me?
John 14:6

Of course, but the Catholic faith has precisely nothing in its teachings that even remotely infers any contradiction to that, and you cannot provide any authentic and authoritative Catholic document to make such a case because none such exists.

 

[justasking4]

Your definition of veneration is messed up. Better look at the other definitions behind that first one. Veneration and adoration are two different things. Especially, in Catholic teaching.This is complete nonsense. The saints in heaven do nothing BUT glorify God and any response to prayers to them is only by God’s permission and power. God needs no help of course…but you have obviously missed the glaring fact that even though God needs no help, that He plainly chooses to use His angels and saints to deal with His people on Earth. Again, God needs no help, yet He used various apostles and members of His church as well as water, spit, mud, words, and other tangible things to effect miracles of healing. How you missed all this in scripture is a surprise to me.Of course, but the Catholic faith has precisely nothing in its teachings that even remotely infers any contradiction to that, and you cannot provide any authentic and authoritative Catholic document to make such a case because none such exists.

You’re confusing me again. Where in Scripture do we find any dead saint helping out with anyone in this world? Where do any of the apostles teach such a thing that they can hear you and help you?

 

[justasking4]

… the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead…the saints are not dead,hopefully you got this through…is it not more effiecint to ask one who is face to face to God to pray for you than one still clothed in the weak flesh?actually the only person of the trinity who became flesh is Christ,not the Father or the Holy Spirit…no one ever said the saints are more than Christ…and now the saints share in God’s glory…for they are glorified through Christ…St. John 17:22"and the glory that thou hast given Me,I have given to them…"try again please

Where do the Scriptures say you can communicate with them and they with you?

 

[fbl9]

better yet show where in scripture one can not ask those who are face to face with God to pray for and with you??who said anything about the saints communicating with us any how?

 

[justasking4]

better yet show where in scripture one can not ask those who are face to face with God to pray for and with you??who said anything about the saints communicating with us any how?

When you pray to a saint you are assuming they can hear your prayers. At the very least you are communicating with them. Correct?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I would suggest a nice webpage called The Catholic Legate:
catholic-legate.com/top_menu/apologetics.html

They have a lot of good stuff, especially on the major Marian doctrines.

 

[jmcrae]

I thank you for your reply. I am emailing the author back and forth. I invited him to this forum but he declined stating he is too busy. I thought you raised a very good point. I used it
He said there have always been dissenting groups that were outside of the established Church. Jan Huss-who I looked up–Paulicians–I still think it is a good point but I do not think we can say every Christian was a Catholic for 1500 years–but I also do not think we NEED to say that. Thanks for your support

Actually, you could truthfully point out that everyone who is not either a material or a formal heretic, from 65 AD until now, has been a Catholic who is in good standing and full communion with the Church at Rome.

 

[fbl9]

When you pray to a saint you are assuming they can hear your prayers. At the very least you are communicating with them. Correct?

when you pray to God you must also assume He hears you…so is it unreasonable that those who are ONE with Him that they also can hear your request…when requesting a saint’s intersession:we are communicating them our desires…do you feel that when one is in the flesh they are not in communion with God?(God’s indwelling)how can one be in communion with God alone and not those who are one completely with Him…does the ‘church’ cease to exist when one’s flesh no longer exists?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

www.confrontingcatholicism.com
It is the part about the Assumption of our Blessed Mother–how no one talked about it for like 300 years. Does not seem possible it could have happened and people not talk about it all the time.

In some form, it is traceable to the third century at least. See Stephen Shoemaker’s book about it, online​

This is something we have to believe though–right??
I am also not so sure about the venerating of images. It seems like early Christians were really opposed to it.

They were, until things began to change in the 4th century. Context is vital here.​

I do not want to leave the Church–I am not going to–but as I become more than a “cafeteria Catholic”–I really want to believe

“To everything there is time and a season” - including the development of doctrines. Everything was not equally clear from day one - the co-equality of Christ with the Father is a case in point. There are probably dogmas to be declared in 5000 AD which are only implicit in Tradition in 2008 They are part of the Faith either way even so ​

 

[Church_Militant]

You’re confusing me again. Where in Scripture do we find any dead saint helping out with anyone in this world? Where do any of the apostles teach such a thing that they can hear you and help you?

Well…there’s always the dead guy resurrected when his body hit Elisha’s bones. (2nd Kings 13:21)

Then there’s the New Testament citation of the Pool of Bethesda in John 5: 1-4.

In this case we have both citations from the Old and New Testament and one of which is from the apostle John and involving Jesus Himself.

BTW…your always confused…

 

[Church_Militant]

When you pray to a saint you are assuming they can hear your prayers. At the very least you are communicating with them. Correct?

The Intercession and Communion of Saints.

I think that is fairly easily in evidence.

 

[justasking4]

fbl9;4214938]
Originally Posted by justasking4
When you pray to a saint you are assuming they can hear your prayers. At the very least you are communicating with them. Correct?
fbl9
when you pray to God you must also assume He hears you

…

This One we pray to is God and rose from the dead and He Himself promised to answer prayers in His name. No one else can make such claims. Is there any saint from the distant past who promised that after they die they will answer your prayers?

fbl9
so is it unreasonable that those who are ONE with Him that they also can hear your request…

Again you are assuming that these dead saints can hear your prayers.

fbl9
.when requesting a saint’s intersession:we are communicating them our desires…

But you have no way of knowing if these saints have this capacity to hear you. Its certainly not revealed to us in Scripture
.

fbl9
do you feel that when one is in the flesh they are not in communion with God?

Depends. Even in catholic theology a person is cut off from God by sin. Correct?

fbl9
(God’s indwelling)how can one be in communion with God alone and not those who are one completely with Him…

Easily. We know such things are true in this world with our loved ones who may be far away from us. Secondly we don’t really know what the nature of the after life is in regards to this issue.

fbl9
does the ‘church’ cease to exist when one’s flesh no longer exists?

Not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?