Trouble with anti-Catholic book/website

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Hmm… I better not …
jmcrae said:
This is a false contrast, since whether you buy a Ford or a Chevy, you are still buying a car.

But taking advice from someone who disagrees with the Magisterium is a bit like asking an Amish guy which kind of car is better - you’re not likely to get anywhere productive, with that, because he considers cars to be evil.
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dougfreed said:
Shouldn’t you have knowledge from all and not just what the Magisterium says? Wouldn’t that be like asking a Chevy dealer if a Ford was any good?
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Doug…the answer to your question is an emphatic NO!! As jmcrae said…you don’t ask an Amish man’s opinion about cars.

Were Catholics to ask anti-Catholics for information…they would be the recipients of heretical and false information. Were we Catholics to want the “information” provided by non-Catholic and anti-Catholic sources…we may as well embrace the DaVinci Code and all of the gnostic gospels, append our beliefs to combination’s of JW/SDA/LDS/SBC/ and all the rest… and to add a little spice maybe a little nihilistic fatalism… :eek:
 
Mason1971 said:
jmcrae–thanks for posting. I get what you are saying.
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I might also add… Take a moment or two to digest what people say in print… Its very easy to wrongly discern the intent of some words. Print carries little emotion…and I myself have to stop and think about what is said before I respond… 🙂
 
RobHom
You are right, if I only want to believe the Catholic ways then I only put Catholic STUFF or sources should I say in my head and heart. I guess you might say I could leave all the other stuff out and just read the Bible. Wouldn’t that work?
RobHom said:
Were Catholics to ask anti-Catholics for information…they would be the recipients of heretical and false information. Were we Catholics to want the “information” provided by non-Catholic and anti-Catholic sources…we may as well embrace the DaVinci Code and all of the gnostic gospels, append our beliefs to combination’s of JW/SDA/LDS/SBC/ and all the rest… and to add a little spice maybe a little nihilistic fatalism… :eek:
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dougfreed said:
RobHom
You are right, if I only want to believe the Catholic ways then I only put Catholic STUFF or sources should I say in my head and heart. I guess you might say I could leave all the other stuff out and just read the Bible. Wouldn’t that work?
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Reading the Bible alone is kind of like reading a car magazine that has no pictures, and without ever driving a car or knowing what a car is.

Jesus gave us the Church (the car) and the Bible is stories that tell us how other people have made use of it or been involved with it, in the past.

In the same way that you need to be shown and guided on how to drive a car, you also need to be a part of Christ’s Church, and actually interact with it, before the Bible really begins to come clear, as to what it is talking about.
 
dougfreed said:
RobHom
You are right, if I only want to believe the Catholic ways then I only put Catholic STUFF or sources should I say in my head and heart. I guess you might say I could leave all the other stuff out and just read the Bible. Wouldn’t that work?
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It’s more like, if I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about things, I should only use Catholic sources. I wouldn’t ask Jack T Chick what the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist.

If you “just read the Bible” you’re limiting the Word of God to a book.
 
I do not see a reason why it could not have happened. I even see that it is “fitting”. Thank you for your help.
 
But if your searching for GOD The Bible is the only thing that does not change man does. So GOD gave us the Bible to insure that we don’t do certain things. I totally agree with you you need to be careful what you read every religion will twist their writings to suit them that’s why i think the Bible is the true church. Hope this isn’t to far off topic…
Pixie_Dust said:
It’s more like, if I want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about things, I should only use Catholic sources. I wouldn’t ask Jack T Chick what the Catholic Church teaches about the Eucharist.

If you “just read the Bible” you’re limiting the Word of God to a book.
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dougfreed said:
But if your searching for GOD The Bible is the only thing that does not change man does. So GOD gave us the Bible to insure that we don’t do certain things. I totally agree with you you need to be careful what you read every religion will twist their writings to suit them that’s why i think the Bible is the true church. Hope this isn’t to far off topic…
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Which came first, the Church or the Bible?
 
dougfreed said:
The Bible and then the Church, Jesus built the church.
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Uh, no. The Bible came into existence in the late 300s and early 400s, at the request of Pope Damasus, first of all, and then it was proclaimed to be the Holy Word of God by an infallible decree of Pope Innocent I.

The various books that comprise the Bible were written by human members of Israel (the Old Testament Church) and of the Early Church over a span of several hundred years, beginning with Moses and ending with St. John the Apostle.

Israel itself (which is the prototype of the Christian Church) got its start long before the birth of Moses, when Abraham received a word from God and entered into a Covenant with Him. And when Jesus came to the earth and founded Christianity, not one word of the New Testament had yet been written down - the writing of the New Testament actually began with the letters of St. Paul, around 50 AD or so, when the Church as we know it today had already been in existence for nearly two decades, and the very first infants to have been baptized into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit were already starting their own families, and bringing them into the Church, as well.
 
No the Bible was being assembled as time went on. Jesus and his building the church is the finish to the Bible.
Pixie_Dust said:
So the entire Bible, OT AND NT was in everyone’s hands before Christ ascended into Heaven? :hmmm:
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RobHom;4228363]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I’m familar with what the article you recommend but it falls short of having scripture support. Even though angels exist and have been used by God at times in the past OT that does not mean we are to pray to them. It may sound reasonable but Jesus nor His apostles ever taught any kind of an appeal to an angel or dead saint for help. Although the passage in Revelation 8 appears to support prayers to angels it really doesn’t. Here is the passage from the article you recommended:
"The combination of the prayers both of angels and saints is seen in the vision of St. John: “And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel” (Revelation 8:3-4).
As you can see here there is no direct intercession to an angel.
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RobHom
Actually… your statement at first does little more than “limit God” and His creations. That something does not specifically exist in scriptures does not negate anything.
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What it does though is it does limit what we can say with any certainity. We do know that there are no prayers in the NT for example directly to any angel. We find no such exhortation to do so.
Fords, Edsels and Nuclear Powered Battle Ships don’t exist in scripture… Its a silly statement…but that’s how we view a “sola scripturist’s” quasi-justification of negation.
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🤷
Actually, the Angel did intercede. He carried the prayers to God.
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True. However there is no mention of anyone praying directly to the angel by name for example.
Also, if you read the words you cited…with an unjaundiced eye you would see where your statement fails.
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My eyes are ok. What we must not do is to go beyond what is written and use speculations to ground our practices.
Two more articles for you to read…
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newadvent.org/summa/3083.htm
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newadvent.org/fathers/0322.htm
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While you worship Paul and the Bible… we understand that there is far more to God than what is found between the covers of a book called the Bible. 😃 (Bluntly put but succinct!)
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The Scriptures are the clearest expression of God found anywhere in the world. Only the Scripture are considered inspired-inerrant. Anything not found there on what God is like or wants of use is speculation.
Oh, and if you take the time to read this one…it will clarify the issue for you on a “biblical/scriptural” level… 🙂
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newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
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🙂 Need more…🙂
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dougfreed said:
No the Bible was being assembled as time went on. Jesus and his building the church is the finish to the Bible.
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They didn’t even start writing the New Testament until 50 AD, and the writing itself wasn’t completed until about 95 AD. The discernment of which books were Scripture took another few hundred years.

Jesus ascended into Heaven in 30 AD.
 
Wow thanks I learned something today.
jmcrae said:
They didn’t even start writing the New Testament until 50 AD, and the writing itself wasn’t completed until about 95 AD. The discernment of which books were Scripture took another few hundred years.

Jesus ascended into Heaven in 30 AD.
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Ja4 unless i have missed it,you still have not shown any scripture that says one can not ask for the intrecession of a saint,Mary or angels…
 
fbl9 said:
Ja4 unless i have missed it,you still have not shown any scripture that says one can not ask for the intrecession of a saint,Mary or angels…
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Since such a thing is not taught in Scripture there is none. There are no examples of it either. Now if you want to assert that there is, then please show me where Scripture exhorts us to do so?
 
justasking4 said:
Since such a thing is not taught in Scripture there is none. There are no examples of it either. Now if you want to assert that there is, then please show me where Scripture exhorts us to do so?
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there in lies our difference your faith is bound by a book,where as my faith is bound by His church…we read in the Acts of the Apostle’s that (paraphrased-5:14-15)that beleivers laid the sick out so that when St. Peter passed by his shadow may touch them and they be cured…did these people then believe it was St.Peter’s shadow that cured?
 
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