Trouble with the Old Testament

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

That was not what I was attempting to do.If you would like for me to reference Scriptural citations where God hates all workers of lawlessness, I will do so – but not try to get off topic.

The purpose of the post was to point out that your understanding of the English word ‘all’ is not the same as the original Greek word from which it has been ambiguously translated into.

With respects to ’ , , , the offer of (salvation) is not made for all to either accept or reject.’ I disagree…however, in an interest of staying on topic, I will not comment further.

it is not the man that God hates it is his sin and unwillingness to repent from it. Now if you want to argue that there are those that have chosen to be an enemy of God’s and in thus fight for the ruination of all. I would be will to say god more than likely does not like them, But even for them the option to repent is available so I would argue that he still loves them.

Since I do not speak Greek I must really on the those of the Church that do to present me with a translation in English that conveys what the Authors wrote in Greek. As without words before or after the word all to set it apart from the whole, I believe that when it says all it means all. Now if it said just as an example to all people with blond hair and brown eyes then that would set certain boundaries as to what all means. God did not set those kind of boundaries.

 

[fewnotmany]

From were do you extrapolate that God loves everyone?

John 3:16, for one. “For God so loved the world…”

If I understand you correctly, you believe John 3:16 to mean that God loves everyone in the world unconditionally? Is that what you are saying?

 

[fewnotmany]

I’d like to summarize what my 10 years of studying the Hebrew Bible has taught me . . .

The old testament was a shadow, the new testament is the very image (Col. 2:17). What was once literal is now spiritual. Both testaments are about a Family that God knew before hand. Before Christ, only the descendants of Abraham received the blessing. Because of their apostasy (tree and moon worship, i.e. paganism AND their traditions not based on Scripture), God poured out of His Spirit to the gentiles (but not every man, woman, child that ever lived). No longer was God restricted to blood relatives alone. It became spiritual.

Also, I once heard a professor on the Book of Rev. state that it has over 600 references to the Hebrew Bible. It is important to study the Hebrew Bible???

 

[Newbie2]

If I understand you correctly, you believe John 3:16 to mean that God loves everyone in the world unconditionally? Is that what you are saying?

Yep.

But it doesn’t necessarily follow, and if fact doesn’t, that although he loves everyone and desires everyone to be saved, that everyone will be saved.

“Tough love”.

 

[juliamajor]

I’d like to summarize what my 10 years of studying the Hebrew Bible has taught me . . .

The old testament was a shadow, the new testament is the very image (Col. 2:17). What was once literal is now spiritual. Both testaments are about a Family that God knew before hand. Before Christ, only the descendants of Abraham received the blessing. Because of their apostasy (tree and moon worship, i.e. paganism AND their traditions not based on Scripture), God poured out of His Spirit to the gentiles (but not every man, woman, child that ever lived). No longer was God restricted to blood relatives alone. It became spiritual.

Also, I once heard a professor on the Book of Rev. state that it has over 600 references to the Hebrew Bible. It is important to study the Hebrew Bible???

Yes it is important to study the Tanakh ,but we must study it in light of Christ… Revelation is absolutely covered in OT references- if John wrote it in the 21st C he’d be accused of copyright infringement !

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

I realize this is rather long - but please bear with me…

My understanding of the Old Testament (admittedly one that I came to mostly on my own so…) is that it depicts what happens if we are left to our own devices. In other words what happens when we do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit provided for us through Christs sacrifice. Look at what has happened today even with the Holy Spirit. Even with His presence , as Scripture states, “No life would be saved if those days were not limited”

Mat 24:21 For at that time there will be great suffering, the kind that has not happened from the beginning of the world until now and certainly will never happen again.
Mat 24:22 If those days had not been limited, no life would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be limited.

Imagine what would be happening today without His presence - life would have reached that point much earlier, and very few would be saved.

It also shows the Justice of God, and that He keeps His word “The wages of sin is death”. Even now still - we are told to “FEAR, Love and Trust in God above all things”. Gods Justice is tempered with His mercy (the Holy Spirit, and Purgatory) as His mercy is tempered with His Justice ( We are still expected to follow the rules, either those spelled out through His church, or those written on our hearts (for those who are ignorant of the Church and Christ))

Although God DOES love us unconditionally - in that we are, first and foremost, not worthy of His love because we are sinful and disregarding of His Word at times or altogether - He loves us anyway and gives 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. chances.

That we are not wiped off the face of the earth as in the O.T. but rather given chance after chance. What I mean by that is - one of His cleansing’s as depicted in the O.T. probably would have happened by now in at least one country or city somewhere in the world - like China or Japan, or the Middle East etc. Yet He loves them also and is patient.

2Pe 3:15 Think of our Lord’s patience as salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him.

Rom 2:4 Or do you think so little of the riches of his kindness, forbearance, and patience, not realizing that it is God’s kindness that is leading you to repentance

That we do not have to do anything in order to gain His love - he loves those whom He corrects. That even while He MUST destroy those who refuse Him - in the interest of Justice because of those who DID follow His Word - whether it was Christ or the Word written on their hearts.

Rev 3:19 I correct and discipline those whom I love, so be serious and repent!

Admittedly - that isn’t a very good example maybe, but nowhere in Scripture does it say that God hates anyone - just the sin which prompts Him to destroy the unrepentant. That quote is taken from Revelations, and pertains to those left here right before the end of the world as we know it. Right up to the end God loves us, and gives us chances to accept that - but in the end, the unrepentant must be destroyed.

Does this make any sense?

Peace

John

 

[fewnotmany]

My understanding of the Old Testament (admittedly one that I came to mostly on my own so…)

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Imagine what would be happening today without His presence - life would have reached that point much earlier, and very few would be saved.

Although God DOES love us unconditionally -

That we do not have to do anything in order to gain His love - he loves those whom He corrects.

That even while He MUST destroy those who refuse Him -

He. . . . gives . . . (us) chances.

but nowhere in Scripture does it say that God hates anyone

Does this make any sense?

Yes.

I disagree with nearly everything you said. Where would you like for me to begin?

 

[Douglas_Naaden]

FewNotMany,
What is your view of God? Is God love? If God is love, isn’t necessarily the case that His actions have their root in love? Isn’t the creation of each soul, of each person, an act of love by God?

God doesn’t suffer from a split personality. To get back towards the original question, I think it’s sad that people seemed to always gloss over the Story of Ananias and Sapphira when they’re looking at the “OT God” vs. the “NT God”.

The passages from the link above and from the link below don’t fit well together. But if “God is Love” is true, it has ramifications; that all God’s actions flow from that love is one of them. If we look at things narrowly, it does seem like God hates a lot of people. The OT view of God is sometimes the view of someone who judges only the surface of events. The child being disciplined (or a 3rd party watching a parent disciplining a child) might not be able to see how the parent’s motivation is love, but it’s there.

God created the world out of love, and it is this same love that allowed mighty kings to be struck down. We have to find a resolution to all these verses, not flat out deduce that the God of the OT is cruel and the NT version is now a super-nice guy or on the other end that God does not love all of His creation.

I recommend The Great Adventure, as far as coming to a fuller appreciation of the big picture of Salvation history. It answers a lot of questions about harem warfare and why this or that story is in the Bible, when it seems so scandalous.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Which is why I qualified my answer

My understanding of the Old Testament (admittedly one that I came to mostly on my own so…)

Trusting in the Lord for our Salvation - absolutely, Trusting in His Church for our understanding - absolutely…studying for ourselves while being subject to a greater authority (also the Church) where she has an opinion NOT formal declarations of Truth, Faith, or Morals, opinions which are also subject to becoming Dogma or doctrine under the Supreme Authority but NOT Dogma - - such as evolution; relationships between the O.T. and N.T.* - such as we are having right now;* the validity of apparitions - outside of those approved by the Church as definite or condemned as fraudulent; the whys and wherefores of Paganism in some cases; the end-times controversies; (etc. etc. need I go on?) is perfectly fine…all the while being subject to that which has already been declared to be the Truth.

I disagree with nearly everything you said. Where would you like for me to begin?

Well if you want to discuss it - I guess that would be your call?

Peace

John

 

[fewnotmany]

FewNotMany,
What is your view of God? Is God love?

Please allow me to get specific as to the biblical definition of the word love.

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah’-pay).

Same word as in 2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

There is no word in the New Testament Greek for our word love. We have incorporated several Greek words into our English word “love”. We have confused and misused two of these Greek words: agape and phileo. They are both translated “love” in the New Testament. The word phileo (love) means to be affectionate.

Jesus said we are to love (agapeo - verb form of agape) our neighbor and our enemy (Mark 12:31; Matt. 5:44). He was not saying that we are to be affectionate (phileo) to them. He was saying that we are to “God” (agapeo) them, since God is love (agape). We are to give our neighbor and our enemy all that God is --his instruction.

Agape Love is conditional.

 

[Douglas_Naaden]

uh…no one said anything about affection. I mean love, like charity, willing the good for someone.

all that God is --his instruction

That is the equivalent to saying something like when serving people food, you have to give them all that food is: a list of ingredients. But that’s not the food itself!
God’s instructions are for one purpose: to lift us up and unite us with Him. It’s about persons, not instructions, not rules. Sure, you need instructions, but they are the means, not the end.

The verse you referenced is a verse about Agape is precisely where Christ is saying your love should know no boundaries. Then you go and say:

Agape Love is conditional.

Your proof texting defeated your statement. Perfect love like God’s = rains on the righteous and the unrighteous. It is given to all.

Can you logically say that God is [conditional] anything? All His perfections are infinite; If He did things by halves, that would mean he was imperfect, like us.

 

[EmeraldWings]

Hello,

When I read the Old Testament, specifically the more historical books like Joshua through 2 Kings, it’s hard to gather any truly nourishing spiritual matter from these stories and books. More specifically, the nationalistic warrior God of justice, who created all men and presumably, according to Christ, loves all men, has no difficulty in cutting down those who err, those who stray, those who transgress against his commandments (which, it’s likely, other foreign people would never have heard of). I find the actions of King David to be absolutely despicable, and, at times, I’m absolutely embarassed to associate my Christian heritage with him and his sons and other associates!

Now, I know it is an ancient Marcionite heresy to not believe the Old Testament to also be divinely revealed, but no matter how I try to read the New Testament into the Old, it doesn’t seem to change the fact that the Old Testament tells more tales of an unjust, jealous, bloodthirsty tyrant God rather than one whom we Christians preach as loving, just, and merciful even to those who have never heard of his commandments or his Son!

I don’t know how Jews, much less Christians, can be spiritually nourished by anything other than the Prophets and Wisdom Books with selected stories scattered throughout the Torah.

well, my advice to you would be, stop reading the bible on your own, and try reading something like this instead -
tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/618/keywords/comentary/

that will better explain things to you, because it seems you do not understand what you are reading or the deep meaning to it.
maybe i’m wrong, but you are clearly mistaken about many of the things you read.

also, what version of the bible are you reading?

 

[fewnotmany]

uh…no one said anything about (love meaning) affection.

There in lies the problem with the ambiguous ‘God is love’, it’s a fortune cookie answer.

Speaking of charity . . .

2 Peter 1:7
and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, charity.

In the original greek text . . . charity is agape.

That is the equivalent to saying something like when serving people food, you have to give them all that food is: a list of ingredients.

Perfect love like God’s = rains on the righteous and the unrighteous. It is given to all.

Let’s examine this point . . .

Matthew 5:43-48 -
43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on {the} evil and {the} good, and sends rain on {the} righteous and {the} unrighteous. 46 "For you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing {than others?} Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Love is used 4 times. All 4 times the word is the the verb form of agape.

One more time, love (agape) = walking in the commandments.

2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

Can you logically say that God is [conditional] anything?

From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?

 

[Douglas_Naaden]

In the original greek text . . . charity is agape.

Which is why I mentioned it.

One more time, love (agape) = walking in the commandments.

2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

This passage is illustrating how we love; it’s not a definition of love, per se. St. John is explaining love by the example of love. Otherwise you have, God is “[He who] walks after His commandments.”
What is God before there are commandments, then?

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?

Rom 5:6 For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
**Rom 5:7 For it is rare for anyone to die for a righteous person, though somebody might be brave enough to die for a good person.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his love for us by the fact that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. **
Rom 5:9 Now that we have been justified by his blood, how much more will we be saved from wrath through him!
Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life!

Since God is Love - as you yourself stated:

1Co 13:4 Love is always patient, Love is always kind, Love is never envious Or vaunted up with pride. Nor is she conceited,
1Co 13:5 And never is she rude, Never does she think of self Or ever get annoyed. She never is resentful,
1Co 13:6 Is never glad with sin, But always glad to side with truth, Whene’er the truth should win.
1Co 13:7 She bears up under everything, Believes the best in all, There is no limit to her hope, And never will she fall.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails…

and again:

Eph 2:3 Indeed, all of us once behaved like them in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and senses. By nature we deserved wrath, just like everyone else.
**Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love for us
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavenly realm in Christ Jesus, **

Yet again:

Tit 3:3 After all, we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, and misled. We were slaves to many kinds of lusts and pleasures, spending our days in malice and jealousy. We were despised, and we hated one another.
Tit 3:4 However, In grace our Savior God appeared, His love for mankind to make clear.
Tit 3:5 'Twas not for deeds that we had done, But by his steadfast love alone, He saved us through a second birth, Renewed us by the Spirit’s work,
Tit 3:6 And poured him out upon us, too, Through Jesus Christ our Savior true.
Tit 3:7 And so, made right by his own grace, Eternal life we now embrace.

yet again:

1Jn 4:7 Dear friends, let us continually love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.
1Jn 4:8 The person who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1Jn 4:9 This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent his unique Son into the world so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Dear friends, if this is the way God loved us, we must also love one another

Rev 3:19 I correct and discipline those whom I love, so be serious and repent!

Can you find any conditions in any of these?

Peace

John

 

[fewnotmany]

Since God is Love - as you yourself stated:

From where do you get that? You are making me wonder if you have even read what I posted. My question to you was, ‘From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?’ – Because I don’t believe its in the bible.

With respects to the list of verses you compiled, I’ve a self-imposed rule within this forum to 1. stay on topic. 2. avoid commenting on a long list of verses by someone that will mostlikely not read my comments, but will simple move on to another point. In other words, from my experience, replying back to your previous post is a waste of my time.

We disagree. I can live with that.

 

[fewnotmany]

This passage is illustrating how we love; it’s not a definition of love,

I’ll ask you the same question:

From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?’ – Because I don’t believe its in the bible.

 

[Douglas_Naaden]

I’ll ask you the same question:

From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?’ – Because I don’t believe its in the bible.

I think PraRFLEsEkHm responded with a more than adequate number of verses.
As far any theologian or philosopher is concerned (my degree is in Philosophy), you don’t need a Bible verse. There is an old saying, if God is God, He must be God. It means that God must be infinitely perfect in every way. Human love can be divided and imperfect; human love can love 90%, 80%… God’s love, because it is perfect, embraces every good perfectly and entirely.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Please allow me to get specific as to the biblical definition of the word love.

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God,** because God is love.**

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah’-pay).

Same word as in 2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

There is no word in the New Testament Greek for our word love. We have incorporated several Greek words into our English word “love”. We have confused and misused two of these Greek words: agape and phileo. They are both translated “love” in the New Testament. The word phileo (love) means to be affectionate.

Jesus said we are to love (agapeo - verb form of agape) our neighbor and our enemy (Mark 12:31; Matt. 5:44). He was not saying that we are to be affectionate (phileo) to them. He was saying that we are to “God” (agapeo) them, since God is love (agape). We are to give our neighbor and our enemy all that God is –his instruction.

I got it from here - unless I misunderstood your meaning. If I did then I apologize, but it looks to me that you were saying “God is Love”? Or was that Scripture that was saying “God is Love”? God disciplines those whom He Loves, Because He Loves and doesn’t want any to be condemned. I won’t bother with the verses to back that up - unless you want them. (AGAIN) which is WHY I posted those verses to begin with.

Agape Love is conditional.

If then God is Love - how can that be conditional?

Peace

John

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

From where do you get that? You are making me wonder if you have even read what I posted. My question to you was, ‘From where do you get the doctrine that God = Unconditional Love?’ – Because I don’t believe its in the bible…

Answered - above (twice now)

With respects to the list of verses you compiled, I’ve a self-imposed rule within this forum to 1. stay on topic. 2. avoid commenting on a long list of verses by someone that will mostlikely not read my comments, but will simple move on to another point. In other words, from my experience, replying back to your previous post is a waste of my time.

We disagree. I can live with that.

I didn’t post all that for you to contradict Scripture - I posted that many simply because there were that many. ( And because you asked where it was found in Scripture) Taken with the above post of mine - I think the result is fairly clear.

BTW - I thought that WAS the topic, as you stated (partially - so as not to make a long post)

Now, I know it is an ancient Marcionite heresy to not believe the Old Testament to also be divinely revealed, but no matter how I try to read the New Testament into the Old, it doesn’t seem to change the fact that the Old Testament tells more tales of an unjust, jealous, bloodthirsty tyrant God rather than one whom we Christians preach as loving, just, and merciful even to those who have never heard of his commandments or his Son!Now, I know it is an ancient Marcionite heresy to not believe the Old Testament to also be divinely revealed, but no matter how I try to read the New Testament into the Old, it doesn’t seem to change the fact that the Old Testament tells more tales of an unjust, jealous, bloodthirsty tyrant God rather than one whom we Christians preach as loving, just, and merciful even to those who have never heard of his commandments or his Son!

Peace

John