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BRB
Guest
Excellent discussion on Predestination … as always, the Catholic theology always make the most sense.
One intuitively knew John Calvin had it all wrong on this topic.
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One intuitively knew John Calvin had it all wrong on this topic.
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Elizabeth_C
Guest
I have been intermittantly doing Bible studies from SalvationHistory.com (Stubenville…Scott Hahn)
Today, I opened an email from Amazon with recommendations for reading. This book is based on one of the studies I did. It might help.
Genesis to Jesus: Studying Scripture from the Heart of the Church (Journey Through Scripture) (Paperback)
by Kimberly Hahn (Author), Michael Barber (Author)
I plan on buying it so I can do the study better than I did printing it off the web site. I’m sure it’s refined a bit, too.
Today, I opened an email from Amazon with recommendations for reading. This book is based on one of the studies I did. It might help.
Genesis to Jesus: Studying Scripture from the Heart of the Church (Journey Through Scripture) (Paperback)
by Kimberly Hahn (Author), Michael Barber (Author)
I plan on buying it so I can do the study better than I did printing it off the web site. I’m sure it’s refined a bit, too.
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fewnotmany
Guest
Nuntym . . … I couldn’t agree less with anything that you stated. Regretfully, you splintered into several different points that makes it difficult to focus on one particular statement. If you would like for me to comment further, please state one point that you would like discuss in detail and create a new topic.Nuntym … good points, good apologetics
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BRB
Guest
Fewnotmany …
Give us your concept of Conditional love … as exhibited by God in scriptures. Pick some from OT … and some from New Coventant scriptures.
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fewnotmany
Guest
I have done so already. Regretfully, the topic took off on a rabbit’s trail where posters have ambiguously translated the English word ‘all’ into God loves everyone that ever lived as an argument against God’s love is conditional.
If you would like to put the original topic back on track, I’ll attempt to pick-up on my statement that God only loves those that keep His commandments.
Go To → Is God’s Love unconditional?
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
you know I would go as far as to say that God does not like everyone nor will everyone enter into heaven. that is not the same though as saying that there are those he hated since before they were born.
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BRB
Guest
God cares for (loves) all his creation. /// ‘Christ died for us while we were yet sinners’ … and John 3:16 tells us that ‘whosoever’ believes on him Will be saved.
Ergo … we know that God loves those who were/are commandment breakers.
J
Jack_245814
Guest
You have to read the stories of the Old Testament with an eye towards the times, and see what lessons you can glean from them. King David isn’t a saint for no reason!
He loved even his greatest enemies - to the extent that when someone killed the son of Saul and brought the head to David looking for a reward, he killed them and severed their hands and feet! That seems extremely brutal today, but it really shows how pious and humble he was. When Saul is chasing him all over Israel, and he has the opportunity to kill him, does he? No! He bows down and praises the anointed one. There are tons of other examples of David’s mercy towards his enemies (like the story of Shime-i, etc.), not to mention his touching love and friendship for Jonathan, his unquestioning acceptance of penance and temporal punishment for his sins, his great love and fear of God which is expressed so often.
Then we can look at the “bad guys” of the old testament and learn lessons too - even if they’re often as simple as “do what God says!” King Saul shows the danger of being rash and unthinking. Also, the ultimate sin that cuts him off from God permanently was when he, instead of slaughtering the cattle of the Amalekites, keeps the best ones to sacrifice. Why did this anger God so? It is the sin of Pride, rearing its ugly head again! He decided he would be more pious than necessary, and God punished him for it.
Of course I think one large purpose of the Old Testament is to put you an awe of God’s unimaginably vast power.
I could go on and on about this; you just have to remember that this was a violent, somewhat barbaric time. God ordered the Israelites to commit genocide - to destroy all the men, women, and children of the Canaanites and other rival tribes in the land they were to possess. You have to understand that God’s will is always good, even if we cannot comprehend it.
He loved even his greatest enemies - to the extent that when someone killed the son of Saul and brought the head to David looking for a reward, he killed them and severed their hands and feet! That seems extremely brutal today, but it really shows how pious and humble he was. When Saul is chasing him all over Israel, and he has the opportunity to kill him, does he? No! He bows down and praises the anointed one. There are tons of other examples of David’s mercy towards his enemies (like the story of Shime-i, etc.), not to mention his touching love and friendship for Jonathan, his unquestioning acceptance of penance and temporal punishment for his sins, his great love and fear of God which is expressed so often.
Then we can look at the “bad guys” of the old testament and learn lessons too - even if they’re often as simple as “do what God says!” King Saul shows the danger of being rash and unthinking. Also, the ultimate sin that cuts him off from God permanently was when he, instead of slaughtering the cattle of the Amalekites, keeps the best ones to sacrifice. Why did this anger God so? It is the sin of Pride, rearing its ugly head again! He decided he would be more pious than necessary, and God punished him for it.
Of course I think one large purpose of the Old Testament is to put you an awe of God’s unimaginably vast power.
I could go on and on about this; you just have to remember that this was a violent, somewhat barbaric time. God ordered the Israelites to commit genocide - to destroy all the men, women, and children of the Canaanites and other rival tribes in the land they were to possess. You have to understand that God’s will is always good, even if we cannot comprehend it.
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Valke2
Guest
You should pick specific verse you wish to discuss so that (as a Jew), I can try to explain what value I find in them. But for starters, I’ll answer a question with a question: How can you be inspired by a text that basically says accept Jesus or be denied heaven (or condemned to hell)?
R
Robbinson
Guest
Actually - its more like you have all sined; God can’t tolerate sin, and there is no hope for any of us, but in an act of Grace and Mercy, God provides a way through the sacrifice of his Son as an atonement of sin. So, its an act of mercy/grace, not an act of condemnation and it is our choice.
In the Hebrew scriptures there is the same concept (not surprising, as God does not change) - repent and have faith in the Lord and follow his commandments and have eternal life, or choose not to and be condemned by your own sin.
God’s salvation plan has not changed. It has always been salvation through faith (faith in God); sacrifice (in the Mosaic Law, of animals, now through Christ’s sacrifice) and repentence for sin. With the destruction of the second temple, sacrifice through the Mosaic Law was/is no longer possible - and that is because God has provided another way through the one, final, complete and perfect sacrifice. But, faith and repentance remain requisites for salvation.
Blessings,
Brian
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distracted
Guest
With all the evil i have seen / been the victim of… i have no trouble at all believing in God’s wrath against sin. In fact, i sometimes wonder why He doesn’t destroy San Francisco, Portland, OR and a few other God-forsaken places… probably becaue there are Christians there (though waht Christian would want to live there is beyond me 
:whacky: )…
God doesn’t destroy people who sin out of ignorance… If that was the case, i would have been gone a long time ago…
i believe the people he got rid of knew exactly waht they were doing… were not ignorant… They deliberately turned against God because he wasn’t … say, making them rich or what have you… They didn’t want to accept God as He is… on his terms… They wanted to go their own way… worship what they want to worship (money, sex, who knows what)… So he treated them the way he treated Satan & his demons…
:whacky: )…God doesn’t destroy people who sin out of ignorance… If that was the case, i would have been gone a long time ago…
i believe the people he got rid of knew exactly waht they were doing… were not ignorant… They deliberately turned against God because he wasn’t … say, making them rich or what have you… They didn’t want to accept God as He is… on his terms… They wanted to go their own way… worship what they want to worship (money, sex, who knows what)… So he treated them the way he treated Satan & his demons…
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Ivor_Law
Guest
Why is there “trouble” with the Old Testament? Does anybody wish to make the mistake of divrocing the Old Testament from the New? There is a recurring ‘problem’ with God, that runs through the Old Testament of which we are reminded over and over again. And that is the problem of Idol worship, which is strictly forbidden. Period. God gave us life. Why should we worship an image(s)? And the book of Kings goes to great lengths to tell us who did what was right in God’s eyes and who didn’t, with regard to idol worship. God made a law and we’re expected to uphold it - “Thou shalt have no other gods but me”. In the old testament, those who broke this law were punished. And that’s called “trouble”? What would happen if you were to break the laws of a country? Would you not be punished for it?
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Jack_245814
Guest
Well these days if you were to worship an idol, you would be punished for all eternity, however you can avoid this by sincerely repenting and going to confession. In the Old Testament there are allowances for sin-sacrifices, but God would often just . . . wipe out whole peoples.
I think that’s the main problem people have; that God seems “vengeful” in the Old Testament but “forgiving” in the New. What they miss, I think, is that we cannot ascribe human attributes to God; the truth of God is both simple and beyond words. The closest word to it is “Love”, but even this word fails to truly encompass the unfathomable depths of God’s magnificence.
Isaiah 55:8,9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth,
so high are my ways above your ways
and my thoughts above your thoughts.”
God’s mercy, his goodness, his love, they all transcend and surpass our understanding of these terms. Who are we to condemn God’s actions in the Old Testament?!
Much thanks to a guest priest who explained this passage so beautifully in his homily last Sunday, specifically how it relates to the teachings of the gospels.
B
BRB
Guest
What’s the issue here for a Jew ? Didn’t God teach as much in OT to the Hebrews ? Should we reject the Jewish OT as being uninspired because God’s OT scriptures clearly teach all will be judged ?
Those Hebrews who didn’t obey the Torah … were they not killed by God for their rejection of his Laws and prophets ?
Wasn’t heaven / hell clearly taught in OT ? Also … wasn’t the Messiah a clear teaching in OT ?
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distracted
Guest
i believe God has mercy on all his creatures because he knows how weak and ignorant they are… but when they persist in their sins even when they are not so ignorant (etc), that is somehting else… I believe he tries to get all his people with him, both here and in Heaven… but the bible says that God’s spirit will not always strive with man…Well these days if you were to worship an idol, you would be punished for all eternity, however you can avoid this by sincerely repenting and going to confession. In the Old Testament there are allowances for sin-sacrifices, but God would often just . . . wipe out whole peoples.
I think that’s the main problem people have; that God seems “vengeful” in the Old Testament but “forgiving” in the New. What they miss, I think, is that we cannot ascribe human attributes to God; the truth of God is both simple and beyond words. The closest word to it is “Love”, but even this word fails to truly encompass the unfathomable depths of God’s magnificence.
Isaiah 55:8,9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
As high as the heavens are above the earth,
so high are my ways above your ways
and my thoughts above your thoughts.”
God’s mercy, his goodness, his love, they all transcend and surpass our understanding of these terms. Who are we to condemn God’s actions in the Old Testament?!
Much thanks to a guest priest who explained this passage so beautifully in his homily last Sunday, specifically how it relates to the teachings of the gospels.
Scary thought… the Holy spirit leaving us…
B
BRB
Guest
Unjust by our standards, perhaps.
God as Creator & King gets to make the rules. The clay cannot disrespect the potter indefinately. After a period of time, the potter will deem us unsuitable/unmoldable … and we get set aside, rejected from the Potter’s Wheel / his Tree of Life.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Thank you, I can see how from the Point of view of a Jewish person the New testament would appear just as harsh as parts of the what we call the Old testament. I see neither as unjust for as I see thing In the Old god gave us means for atonement as in the New testament< the way I see it is if you have a problem with it, it is because you want to make the rules instead of God.
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christcnection1
Guest
Do you believe it must be in the Bible alone?
What does the Church have to say about God’s unconditional love?
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