Trouble With Trinity

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I don’t know if this is in the right forum or not…please feel free to move it…

I hate to admit it, but I’ve always struggled with the Trinity. 😦 It’s not that I don’t believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…but I’m confused as pertaining to their relationship one to the other. While I’m not intellectually challenged (because I do enjoy reading philosophy and theology 😃 ), all of the theological treatises dealing with the Trinity seem to run circles around my head with talk of “homoousios” and “one essence but three persons.” Even the Catechism’s definition perplexes me slightly:

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

“Each of them is God whole and entire”? Is that like saying if I have one orange, separate it into three sections, then each section is God whole and entire? It’s “essence” would be that it was an orange but in three segments (persons)?

Any previous discussions, html links, or whatever else would be greatly appreciated. I’d rather correct my understandings early on than to possibly continue drifting in the wrong direction.
 
ValiantDomain said:
I don’t know if this is in the right forum or not…please feel free to move it…

I hate to admit it, but I’ve always struggled with the Trinity. 😦 It’s not that I don’t believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…but I’m confused as pertaining to their relationship one to the other. While I’m not intellectually challenged (because I do enjoy reading philosophy and theology 😃 ), all of the theological treatises dealing with the Trinity seem to run circles around my head with talk of “homoousios” and “one essence but three persons.” Even the Catechism’s definition perplexes me slightly:

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

“Each of them is God whole and entire”? Is that like saying if I have one orange, separate it into three sections, then each section is God whole and entire? It’s “essence” would be that it was an orange but in three segments (persons)?

Any previous discussions, html links, or whatever else would be greatly appreciated. I’d rather correct my understandings early on than to possibly continue drifting in the wrong direction.
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I’d like a dollar for every time Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners has been recommended here. 🙂 You will find this book extremely helpful in in understanding (to the extent that anyone can) this great Mystery. I believe it’s available through the Catholic Answers’ online store.
 
Our human intellects are so limited, aren’t they???

I, personally, have a very child-like, simplified view of the Trinity as something synonymous with the disorder of having “multiple personalities”… one person, but 3 unique personalities (I understand that word better than “persons”)…

God, the Father, brings “personality” images of “fatherhood”, “dominant”, “creator”, and all that is powerful and and dictatorial in laws…
God, the Son, brings “personality” images of “brother”, “human”, “sufferer”, and one that we, as humans, can identify with…
God, the Holy Spirit, brings “personality” images of the fire of love into our hearts, burning with passion in our souls…

They’re all very unique and different aspects and “personalities” that, by themselves, sound conflicting with one another.
How can the “all powerful, dominant, God the Father”, have the same compassion as the “brother, sufferer, human, God the Son”???!?!
They’re extrememly UNIQUE personalities… of the same God… which is why it’s such a glorious mystery! God has ALL those wonderful aspects…

Just my non-researched concept of it in my own mind… probably very simplified compared to theologians, though… HTH!
 
FCEGM said:
I’d like a dollar for every time Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners has been recommended here. 🙂 You will find this book extremely helpful in in understanding (to the extent that anyone can) this great Mystery. I believe it’s available through the Catholic Answers’ online store.
Click to expand...
Order placed! :cool:
 
Em_in_FL said:
Our human intellects are so limited, aren’t they???

I, personally, have a very child-like, simplified view of the Trinity as something synonymous with the disorder of having “multiple personalities”… one person, but 3 unique personalities (I understand that word better than “persons”)…

God, the Father, brings “personality” images of “fatherhood”, “dominant”, “creator”, and all that is powerful and and dictatorial in laws…
God, the Son, brings “personality” images of “brother”, “human”, “sufferer”, and one that we, as humans, can identify with…
God, the Holy Spirit, brings “personality” images of the fire of love into our hearts, burning with passion in our souls…

They’re all very unique and different aspects and “personalities” that, by themselves, sound conflicting with one another.
How can the “all powerful, dominant, God the Father”, have the same compassion as the “brother, sufferer, human, God the Son”???!?!
They’re extrememly UNIQUE personalities… of the same God… which is why it’s such a glorious mystery! God has ALL those wonderful aspects…

Just my non-researched concept of it in my own mind… probably very simplified compared to theologians, though… HTH!
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What a wonderful perspective, Em. There are so many people who don’t understand the Trinity who say, “Christians worship three gods!” In Biblical scenes such as Jesus’ baptism, it’s hard to explain (or even fully comprehend), ‘No, you see, they’re the same yet distinct!’

It is a glorious mystery which, as a mystery, must be experienced (I think) to fully appreciate its significance…
 
First off, no one can understand the Trinity, it is a mystery that goes beyond what the finite human mind can grasp.

That being said, the Trinity is like this:

Jesus is 100% God
Holy Spirit is 100% God
Father is 100% God

The One God is 100% Jesus
The One God is 100% Holy Spirit
The One God is 100% Father

The Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

Let us take a look at the orange you broke into three segments, to translate that into a simile of the Trinity, each segment would constitute 100% of the orange.

Marsha
 
There’s a story about St. Augustine that will illustrate that you are not alone in being unable to understand the Trinity fully.

St. Augustine was walking along a beach and saw a boy who had dug a hole in the sand and was carrying water to the hole and pouring it in. He asked the boy what he was doing. The boy told him he was putting the entire ocean into the hole. When St. Augustine told the boy he would never be able to do that, the boy told him he would never fully understand the Trinity.

Betsy
 
baltobetsy said:
There’s a story about St. Augustine that will illustrate that you are not alone in being unable to understand the Trinity fully.

St. Augustine was walking along a beach and saw a boy who had dug a hole in the sand and was carrying water to the hole and pouring it in. He asked the boy what he was doing. The boy told him he was putting the entire ocean into the hole. When St. Augustine told the boy he would never be able to do that, the boy told him he would never fully understand the Trinity.
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:rotfl:

I always enjoy little anecdotes from St. Augustine.
 
The Trinity is the central mystery of the Catholic Faith. So of course it is very important to contemplate and think about it. But we must understand, that while we can know the truth revealed by God-Trinity – what God is, transends our intellects ability to grasp. We can speak the truth about God but not all there is to God. When we use analogies to undertand the Divine Nature, they can be true. But God is beyond creation and thus analogies fall terriblely short --more short than usual.

Even human persons. We can never come to the end knowing just one. There is always something more and beyond our grasp. But we know them more and more in our love for them. In our relationship.

Even more with the Holy Trinity.

But read the Catechism, pray the Creed. Pray (repeat often) “To you be praise, glory, and thanksgiving, forever, Blessed Trinity” “Holy Holy Holy, Lord God of Power and Might, heaven and earth are full of your Glory”

“Blessed be the Holy Trinity, Now and Forever!”
Sit in silent adoration before the mystery.

Kevin, O.SS.T.,Ter.
Tertiary of the Order of the Holy Trinity and Captives
 
Think of the Trinity as Body, Soul and Spirit.

Soul = God the Father

Body = Jesus

Spirit = The Holy Ghost.

Being we’re created in the image of God, this seems to make
sense to me.

BTW, I 2nd Frank Sheed’s Book “Theology for Beginers.”
 
Jim R.

Actually, I see it as slightly different:

Mind, Body, and Soul/Spirit – Mind - Father, Jesus - Body, Soul/Spirit - Holy Spirit.

Marsha
 
I tend to think of it in these terms:
We are created in His image. As individuals we have three distinct aspects to our persons without any one of them we would be incomplete.

The basis of our very existence depends upon our conciousness, the awareness of our individuality. Which would correspond to the Father. He is the driving force, if you will, behind the Trinity.

But we also have a physical body which, in order to be more than a mere lump of flesh must also participate in the individuality, or conciousness yet is distinct from it. This, of course, is the role of the Son’s participation in the Trinity.

And then there is the means by which we express true compassion and love, our capacity to empathize, and it is neither merely intellectual nor only physical, but an ineffable, spiritual projection of ourselves which communes with the same projections from others. This is the Holy Spirit’s job.

No I’m NOT a new-ager!!!😃

This is just what works for me. Keep in mind that the Trinity is not understandable by us. That’s why it is a mystery, and trying too hard to understand it or define it is ultimately counter-productive.
Hope this helps you, it helped me to write it down:thumbsup:

Peace,
+Nathan
 
**I hope I get this right. This is the way I understood it.

Imagine a flower that has 2 petals on it. Its a whole flower, regardless, right? Let’s say the flower is God. One petal is Jesus, the other petal is the Holy Spirit. They are ONE flower, yet all distinct from each other. How are they distinct? Look at the flower. Look at the petals under a microscope. They differ in appearance, yet all 3 parts are the same One thing.

Does this help?
**
 
seremina said:
**I hope I get this right. This is the way I understood it.

Imagine a flower that has 2 petals on it. Its a whole flower, regardless, right? Let’s say the flower is God. One petal is Jesus, the other petal is the Holy Spirit. They are ONE flower, yet all distinct from each other. How are they distinct? Look at the flower. Look at the petals under a microscope. They differ in appearance, yet all 3 parts are the same One thing.

Does this help?
**
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Or you could use a thee leaf clover, like some one I heard doing.

Oh yeah, now I remember, it was St. Patrick. 🙂
 
Using a 3-leaf clover? I like that! That works too. Thank you for telling me about that one. It makes the explanation more simpler. 👍
 
We know that God is love … but what does that mean. For love to exist there must be certain things. 1) A lover, 2) a beloved and 3) the love between them. This is why God cannot be just a single entity but must be all 3 to be love. God (the lover) loves the Son (the beloved) and the love between them is the Holy Spirit.

If God existed all by Himself He could not be love.
 
ncgolf said:
We know that God is love … but what does that mean. For love to exist there must be certain things. 1) A lover, 2) a beloved and 3) the love between them. This is why God cannot be just a single entity but must be all 3 to be love. God (the lover) loves the Son (the beloved) and the love between them is the Holy Spirit.

If God existed all by Himself He could not be love.
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Umm…isn’t that limiting God? I believe He could exist all by Himself had He chosen to. That doesn’t stop Him from being All-Loving.
 
seremina said:
Umm…isn’t that limiting God? I believe He could exist all by Himself had He chosen to. That doesn’t stop Him from being All-Loving.
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No … I don’t believe so … it tells us a little more about God, that is why He could exist as the essence of love without any need of created creatures be it man or angel.
 
seremina said:
Umm…isn’t that limiting God? I believe He could exist all by Himself had He chosen to. That doesn’t stop Him from being All-Loving.
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Also this is a very basic explanation of the Trinity … it is not all encompassing but it does give some perspective, though limited, into the essence of what God is.
 
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