Troubles...

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Sometimes I believe that I think too much. I have great difficulty coming to solid conclusions, it seems. Just when I think I have found the answers, I discover further objections. My hope is that this mental exercise will serve to make my commitment to the truth even stronger when I do find it.

In my studies of the Church, I have come to believe that the Catholic Church has the best claim to being the same Church as that of the apostles. Protestantism appears to have tried to reinvent Christianity, whereas Orthodoxy, in its denial of papal authority, appears to be going against the Scriptural and historical support for Petrine primacy. Obviously, both Protestants and Orthodox will disagree with these conclusions, but I am not really interesting in debating with either of them in this particular thread.

What does concern me is that I still have further objections, but they are really objections to the Christian religion itself, not just to any particular body within it. As a Protestant, I was free to think, “Well, perhaps we’re wrong about that.” As a Catholic, thinking in such a way is not a possibility, nor do I advocate it. However, I still struggle with some issues.

First and foremost is the idea of justice, mercy and Hell. The Christian idea appears to be that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will spend eternity being tormented in ways beyond imagining. An eternity of suffering is the punishment for an extremely short lifetime of sin. People often say that those in Hell really choose it deliberately. This is something I have trouble accepting. Who chooses an eternity of suffering over an eternity of happiness? I suggest that if someone were to do so, it would be quite likely that they suffered from a serious mental disorder. Should they be punished for this? Christians say that God is just and merciful. Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime? Is it merciful?

If the history of the universe is a story, the Christian version appears to be one of the greatest tragedies ever written. God Himself sacrificed His own Son, in fact His own self, in order to save us, but ultimately He saved so few. At the end of history, the few survivors of this harsh world step into Heavenly glory, but the vast multitude of their brothers and sisters burn forever and ever, with no hope of relief, with no hope of an end.

I have often thought such thoughts throughout the years, and they usually pass after a while. I think again about how “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him,” and I begin to have more hope. Still, the old thoughts remain, and they surface again and again.

Continued…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Continued from previous post…

Another issue is Christianity’s view of women. It often appears that Christianity sees women as being somehow less than men. I mean, seriously, it is not the fault of every woman who has ever lived that Eve ate the fruit. They really shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for it. I am reminded of something I read in the Bible the other day:

Sirach 42:14 - Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; and it is a woman who brings shame and disgrace. (RSV:CE)

Maybe it’s just me, but this sort of passage shows a very strong anti-female bias. An outside observer might conclude that the very patriarchal Middle Eastern cultures out of which Christianity arose had more than a little influence on Christianity’s view of women. Jesus Himself seems to have treated women as being just as worthy of honor as men, but His followers and those who came after appear to have inherited the pre-existing biases. I’m not making some sort of Da Vinci Code argument in favor of the sacred feminine, and I do believe men and women are different and are better suited to different roles. However, I do believe they have equal value and virtue.

The last issue is the issue of celibacy, and it is closely related to Christianity’s view of women. I am absolutely not defending the modern view of sex, with its support for promiscuity and its lack of regard for marriage. I think reason alone, apart from religious indoctrination, shows that sex should only take place within marriage. However, the Christian view (at least the traditional Christian view–many modern Protestants have come to think differently) seems to be that even within marriage, the act of sexual intercourse somehow diminishes a person. Virgins have been held up as the ideal, and even the Holy Sacrament of Marriage seems to be viewed almost as a concession to human weakness. This puzzles me. Marriage is good, children are good, the continuing of the human race is good. I do agree that celibate people can focus more on serving God, and I believe that some people are called to do this. It is a truly noble calling, and those who follow it should be admired for being willing to make such a sacrifice. However, those who choose marriage should not be made to feel that they have chosen a lesser path.

Anyway, those are some thoughts I have been having. My faith in God is still sure, and I believe that Jesus was truly God, and that He truly came to Earth, died for the sins of us all, rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. Aside from that, much of the rest is a little hazy. I know this post is very different from what I have written previously, but I seem to have entered a bit of a “dark time of the soul.” I won’t say that I’m depressed. I’m merely thoughtful. I believe that I can resolve all these issues and still remain within Christian orthodoxy. I’m just a little confused at the moment. I thank you all for any help on these matters.

God bless!

 

[dylanschrader]

We have no way of knowing how many people are in Hell. Aside from the fallen angels, I don’t know of the Church’s ever having declared anything about who is in Hell.

To suffer the torments of Hell, it is not necessary to have rejected God by an explicit choice of Hell over Heaven. To violate the moral law in a serious way (through an informed free choice) by itself shows contempt for the whole law. For more on this, read Veritatis Splendor.

Regarding the dignity of women, Christianity revolutionized the status of women in the world. Women had a common initiation with men (baptism), could be involved in religion without things like prostitution etc., did not have to be married, had their dignity as persons and their eternal destiny recognized, etc. I would recommend reading Mulieris Dignitatem on this topic.

The Church has never held that sex is evil in any way. In fact, the Church Fathers constantly upheld the goodness of the body and of marriage against heresies like Gnosticism and Manichaeism which claimed that the flesh was evil. From the beginning, the Church recognized marriage as a sacrament, instituted by Christ, which expresses the love of Christ for his Church. Marriage and sex are good, the world doesn’t believe this, but the Church always has.

 

[Pax]

Pen,

It’s good to be a thinker. We must always ponder that which is before us. Likewise, we have to accept things as they are even though we do not fully understand them. Not all things in life and faith are fully comprehensible. Things would be rather boring if they were.

Pray for a deepening of your faith. Faith, hope, and charity are life long gifts that we can continuously grow into. Your faith is being tested. Is this unique to you? Not at all. We all go through these difficulties. What we do not understand we can appreciate more by way of prayerful study. What we may never fully understand we accept by faith. Nevertheless, we continue to ponder them as part of God’s mysteries. His mysteries intrigue us and keep us thirsting for more.

God Bless

 

[VociMike]

First and foremost is the idea of justice, mercy and Hell. The Christian idea appears to be that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will spend eternity being tormented in ways beyond imagining. An eternity of suffering is the punishment for an extremely short lifetime of sin. People often say that those in Hell really choose it deliberately. This is something I have trouble accepting. Who chooses an eternity of suffering over an eternity of happiness? I suggest that if someone were to do so, it would be quite likely that they suffered from a serious mental disorder. Should they be punished for this? Christians say that God is just and merciful. Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime? Is it merciful?

This issue goes away if you consider that every person will be granted his most fundamental eternal desire, to be with God or to be away from God. Those who choose to exist without God create their own misery (look to this world for countless examples), but that misery is nothing to them compared to the greater misery (for them, by their choice) of being with God. Even 1/3 of the angels, who existed in the very presence of God, rejected him nonetheless. I doubt they had mental disorders. They simply rejected an existence of complete self-giving to others, preferring an existence of complete self-love.

If the history of the universe is a story, the Christian version appears to be one of the greatest tragedies ever written. God Himself sacrificed His own Son, in fact His own self, in order to save us, but ultimately He saved so few. At the end of history, the few survivors of this harsh world step into Heavenly glory, but the vast multitude of their brothers and sisters burn forever and ever, with no hope of relief, with no hope of an end.

Nobody should ever try and guess how many will choose heaven. I think Christians (in fact, all people who truly seek God) develop a sense about recognizing saints in everyday life. I think we can detect many saints in this life. Further, God does not hold people accountable for the gospel they have not heard, but only for the gospel they have heard (even if it is only the gospel He writes into every human heart). Those who follow His gospel as they have heard it, they are members of His Church and are on the path to heaven.

 

[VociMike]

Continued from previous post…

Another issue is Christianity’s view of women. It often appears that Christianity sees women as being somehow less than men. I mean, seriously, it is not the fault of every woman who has ever lived that Eve ate the fruit. They really shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for it. I am reminded of something I read in the Bible the other day:

I think this is rather true of Protestantism, but the Catholic and Orthodox faiths hold up a woman as the ideal of human perfection by the grace of God, to a point that most Protestants find gravely excessive. The Catholic Church has named at least one woman a Doctor of the Church, and a great many women as saints.

The last issue is the issue of celibacy, and it is closely related to Christianity’s view of women. I am absolutely not defending the modern view of sex, with its support for promiscuity and its lack of regard for marriage. I think reason alone, apart from religious indoctrination, shows that sex should only take place within marriage. However, the Christian view (at least the traditional Christian view–many modern Protestants have come to think differently) seems to be that even within marriage, the act of sexual intercourse somehow diminishes a person.

Again, this view may be a particular distortion of a particular time and place rather than the Christian teaching for all times and places. American Christianity, even Catholicism, has a strong taint of English Puritanism and Irish Catholicism (a very Puritan version of Catholicism according to many). But America in the past 200 years is not the entire Catholic world since Pentecost. It’s important to see past the distortions of this time and place to the true faith of the ages.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

What does concern me is that I still have further objections, but they are really objections to the Christian religion itself, not just to any particular body within it. As a Protestant, I was free to think, “Well, perhaps we’re wrong about that.” As a Catholic, thinking in such a way is not a possibility, nor do I advocate it. However, I still struggle with some issues.

Being Catholic does not requre 100% certianty. It requires a personal letting of of the need to be certian. In my experience, when I run into the, “what if we’re wrong” roadblocks, I just let go of the need to be certian and hold on to faith. Jesus told us that the gates of Hell would never prevail against his Church. I believe that. If this or that point of doctrine confuses me, I’ll search for the answer. But, in the end, if I’m left confused, I let go of my need for assurance and cling to my faith.

If the history of the universe is a story, the Christian version appears to be one of the greatest tragedies ever written. God Himself sacrificed His own Son, in fact His own self, in order to save us, but ultimately He saved so few. At the end of history, the few survivors of this harsh world step into Heavenly glory, but the vast multitude of their brothers and sisters burn forever and ever, with no hope of relief, with no hope of an end.

Maybe, I’m just very simple minded. But, I believe that when we meet God we will find the reverse to be true. Those in hell, will be few, those with God will be many.

 

[brianwalden]

However, the Christian view (at least the traditional Christian view–many modern Protestants have come to think differently) seems to be that even within marriage, the act of sexual intercourse somehow diminishes a person. Virgins have been held up as the ideal, and even the Holy Sacrament of Marriage seems to be viewed almost as a concession to human weakness. This puzzles me.

The Catholic Church exalts marriage and sex more than any religion I’ve seen. For Catholics marriage is a vocation - a calling to serve God. Through marriage a husband and wife imitate the Persons of the Trinity by giving themselves to each other completely. Sex is the ultimate expression of this selfless love of God and through it we participate with God in creating new life. The Catholic Church has an incredibly high view of marriage as a calling in life, unfortunately many Catholics choose not to even try to live up to what the Church teaches.

Here’s a really good (and short!) booklet the Knights of Columbus made about Marriage in PDF form: kofc.org/rc/en/publications/cis/publications/hart/Hart_CIS116.pdf. And you can see the rest of the titles in the series here: kofc.org/publications/cis/publications/hart/list.cfm.

 

[brianwalden]

Oh, and to start to answer your question’s about the Catholic Church’s view of women, here’s a quick quote from that booklet I linked to in my previous post (emphasis mine):​

1. Complementarity
   According to Scripture, the “image of God” is “male
   and female” (Gn 1:27).
   “Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were
   created for each other:‘It is not good that the man should
   be alone’92” (Gn 2:18; C 1605). Man is for woman, and
   woman is for man.They are “complementary:” each exists
   for the other, not for self, thus imaging the nature of God’s
   Trinitarian love.
   Man and woman are equal in value, different in
   nature, and complementary in purpose. This divinely
   revealed truth about the nature of man and woman fundamentally
   contradicts all three popular secular alternatives
   found in our society: chauvinism, which denies their natural
   equality; unisexism, which denies their natural differences;
   and individualism, which denies their natural complementarity.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Iambic,

It’s good to see you on the forums. God bless you in your duties and keep you safe. (and on your journey as well.)

Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime?

Maybe we need to examine your premise that sin is a *finite *crime?

What do you think?
VC

 

[I_Leatherman]

Eve may have ate the apple but Adam takes the blame - not Eve, in Catholicism anyway, as far as I can understand.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

This issue goes away if you consider that every person will be granted his most fundamental eternal desire, to be with God or to be away from God.

This sounds good, but is this really the teaching of the Church? Does the person who commits a mortal sin (and thereby putting themselves on the “damned list”) truly desire to be away from God forever, or is he or she more likely acting out of some sort of selfishness?

Those who follow His gospel as they have heard it, they are members of His Church and are on the path to heaven.

This is pretty much what I believe. However, I have heard many Catholics of a more traditionalist bent explain that this is an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic position. Very confusing…

Regarding the dignity of women, Christianity revolutionized the status of women in the world. Women had a common initiation with men (baptism), could be involved in religion without things like prostitution etc., did not have to be married, had their dignity as persons and their eternal destiny recognized, etc.

Very true. Thanks!

The Church has never held that sex is evil in any way. In fact, the Church Fathers constantly upheld the goodness of the body and of marriage against heresies like Gnosticism and Manichaeism which claimed that the flesh was evil.

Also well said.

I think this is rather true of Protestantism, but the Catholic and Orthodox faiths hold up a woman as the ideal of human perfection by the grace of God, to a point that most Protestants find gravely excessive. The Catholic Church has named at least one woman a Doctor of the Church, and a great many women as saints.

Ah yes. Thank you.

Being Catholic does not requre 100% certianty. It requires a personal letting of of the need to be certian.

Thanks! Very helpful.

Maybe, I’m just very simple minded. But, I believe that when we meet God we will find the reverse to be true. Those in hell, will be few, those with God will be many.

I pray you are right.
Verbum Caro:

Maybe we need to examine your premise that sin is a finite crime?

What do you think?

Indeed. I think that when we sin, we are acting in accordance with a nature which we inherited, which we did not ask for, and which many of us would rather do without. This does not excuse our sin, but I do struggle with the idea that with every sin we infinitely offend God, thereby “justly” earning eternal torment.

I thank you all for your responses. I actually do feel better already. Sometimes I just need to write down my thoughts. I’m sorry if I won’t be able to immediately address any subsequent responses. My Internet use is rather sporadic here.

God bless!

 

[VociMike]

This sounds good, but is this really the teaching of the Church? Does the person who commits a mortal sin (and thereby putting themselves on the “damned list”) truly desire to be away from God forever, or is he or she more likely acting out of some sort of selfishness?

God, who loves all people even unto his own death for them, is not going to play “gotcha!” with human souls. Nobody who has truly chosen God will end up outside of heaven. People do not go through life living a Godly existence and then suddenly one day commit an unrepented mortal (three important requirements!) sin and just happen to die the very same day. God will not misjudge anybody. But the Church would not be doing anybody any good by seeming to hint that grave sin is not a big deal. It is a big deal, and God’s mercy is even bigger. No grave sin need go unforgiven.

The Catechism is fairly explicit on the matter:

1033: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

This is pretty much what I believe. However, I have heard many Catholics of a more traditionalist bent explain that this is an incorrect interpretation of the Catholic position. Very confusing…

They are mistaken. It is critical to distinguish between what God has revealed and what He has not revealed. We know for certain that Catholics who do not die in a state of mortal sin will go to heaven. We do not know with equal certainty, because God has not chosen to reveal it to us, how God will deal with non-Catholics and with non-Christians.

Look at it this way. God wants us to live in the fullness of truth, which is found in his Church, the Catholic Church. Just because people can be saved by God outside of the visible Catholic Church doesn’t mean that he will reveal all the details as to how that may happen, because such revelation would be a great impediment to his will for those people.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sometimes I believe that I think too much.

Don’t we all?

What does concern me is that I still have further objections, but they are really objections to the Christian religion itself, not just to any particular body within it. As a Protestant, I was free to think, “Well, perhaps we’re wrong about that.” As a Catholic, thinking in such a way is not a possibility, nor do I advocate it. However, I still struggle with some issues.

IP, if ya ever stop having any questions…you really will have problems my friend.

First and foremost is the idea of justice, mercy and Hell. The Christian idea appears to be that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will spend eternity being tormented in ways beyond imagining. An eternity of suffering is the punishment for an extremely short lifetime of sin. People often say that those in Hell really choose it deliberately. This is something I have trouble accepting. Who chooses an eternity of suffering over an eternity of happiness? I suggest that if someone were to do so, it would be quite likely that they suffered from a serious mental disorder. Should they be punished for this?

Christians say that God is just and merciful. Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime? Is it merciful?Did you ever come under a temptation and at the critical moment think to yourself, “This is wrong, but I don’t care. I want this!” I have…and I believe that it’s the very same thinking that sends us to hell. We know what we are doing is dead wrong and yet we choose it asserting that we don’t care. Is that crazy? Yeah, I think so…but it’s also about typical of the human nature we all share, right?

How many times are there very serious consequences for that moment’s decision? Often far and away worse that we even consider at the time. (Can you tell that I minister to prisoners?) That’s just the nature of sin.

Mercy…well God does send us grace to repent and move towards Him as He moves towards us does He not?. (Read the Prodigal Son parable in Luke 15:11-32 “And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and running to him fell upon his neck, and kissed him.” So the fact that He’s just like that father…always on the watch for us and ready to welcome us without reproach. That’s all the mercy that I need…

If the history of the universe is a story, the Christian version appears to be one of the greatest tragedies ever written. God Himself sacrificed His own Son, in fact His own self, in order to save us, but ultimately He saved so few. At the end of history, the few survivors of this harsh world step into Heavenly glory, but the vast multitude of their brothers and sisters burn forever and ever, with no hope of relief, with no hope of an end.

Probably the saddest aspect of human life…and why we seek to win souls, right?

I have often thought such thoughts throughout the years, and they usually pass after a while. I think again about how “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him,” and I begin to have more hope. Still, the old thoughts remain, and they surface again and again.

Continued…

Hey, I understand…

 

[Kay_Cee]

First and foremost is the idea of justice, mercy and Hell.

Okay, let’s look at that.

The Christian idea appears to be that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will spend eternity being tormented in ways beyond imagining.

Where in the world did you get this idea? If it’s from the Bible (as in “Many are called but few are chosen”) I would argue that a loving Father would consider even 99.999999% of His children being saved as too few. (See my comment below about “few.”)

An eternity of suffering is the punishment for an extremely short lifetime of sin.

It’s not the matter of how much *time *it takes to commit a sin, it’s the matter of *degree. *It may take only a second to commit a murder. Do we then say only a second’s worth of punishment is just?

People often say that those in Hell really choose it deliberately. This is something I have trouble accepting. Who chooses an eternity of suffering over an eternity of happiness?

Actually, we do this sort of thing all the time, in a temporal sense. Every time we choose sin, we choose suffering over happiness. So why choose suffering over happiness, even in the short run?

I suggest that if someone were to do so, it would be quite likely that they suffered from a serious mental disorder. Should they be punished for this?

If they are actually mentally ill, no. However, I should point out that we all sin. Do you want to argue that we’re all mentally ill?

Christians say that God is just and merciful. Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime? Is it merciful?

Again, you’re thinking of the terms *finite *and *infinite *as referring to time. As I pointed out above, it’s a matter of degree, not time.

Any sin, actually, since it is a sin against an infinite God, is, in a sense, infinite in degree. Any sin, therefore, is deserving of Hell and would land us there if it were not for Christ’s sacrifice. But, because He sacrificed Himself for us, only an unrepented mortal sin (that is, a complete and total rejection of God and therefore of Christ’s sacrifice) will land you there. Does that makes sense?

If the history of the universe is a story, the Christian version appears to be one of the greatest tragedies ever written. God Himself sacrificed His own Son, in fact His own self, in order to save us, but ultimately He saved so few.

You’re assuming you know what “few” means to God. If you had a dozen kids and they were all drowning in the ocean, and only ten were saved, wouldn’t you say too few were saved?

 

[Church_Militant]

Another issue is Christianity’s view of women. It often appears that Christianity sees women as being somehow less

than men. I mean, seriously, it is not the fault of every woman who has ever lived that Eve ate the fruit. They really shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for it. I am reminded of something I read in the Bible the other day:

Maybe it’s just me, but this sort of passage shows a very strong anti-female bias. An outside observer might conclude that the very patriarchal Middle Eastern cultures out of which Christianity arose had more than a little influence on Christianity’s view of women. Jesus Himself seems to have treated women as being just as worthy of honor as men, but His followers and those who came after appear to have inherited the pre-existing biases. I’m not making some sort of Da Vinci Code argument in favor of the sacred feminine, and **I do believe men and women are different and are better suited to different roles. However, I do believe they have equal value and virtue.**Your bolded statement is exactly right. I also think that in most cases us guys are sort of innately programmed to protect the girls. Having trained girls and women in my years of Karate, my thinking on this is more like yours. Hey, after all, the best fight I had at my Black Belt test was a girl. (Cute one too!) It was great to encounter a girl who could handle herself so well, and believe me, I told her so and then went and complimented her instructor who was a good friend of mine…

I don’t know about anything much else… I follow the Church, but I know that Pope John Paul II made it very plain that women were meant to be held in special esteem.

The last issue is the issue of celibacy, and it is closely related to Christianity’s view of women. … However, the Christian view (at least the traditional Christian view–many modern Protestants have come to think differently) seems to be that even within marriage, the act of sexual intercourse somehow diminishes a person.

Welcome to America…or is it the whole planet Earth? I know what you mean and I personally reject that thinking when I find it in me. The Catholic Church actually makes a very big deal out of “the dignity of all human beings”, and I like to think of this in that context.

Virgins have been held up as the ideal, and even the Holy Sacrament of Marriage seems to be viewed almost as a concession to human weakness. This puzzles me.

Understandable… Our Lord straight off tells us that those who remain celibate for the Kingdom of God are making a good and holy choice…then turns right around and says that not all of us can deal with that. After all…universal celibacy would make being fruitful and multiplying out of the question, wouldn’t it? This is just one more reason that I love to say that we have to understand the Word of God within its own context. Otherwise, it just doesn’t work, does it?

Marriage is good, children are good, the continuing of the human race is good. I do agree that celibate people can focus more on serving God, and I believe that some people are called to do this. It is a truly noble calling, and those who follow it should be admired for being willing to make such a sacrifice. However, those who choose marriage should not be made to feel that they have chosen a lesser path.

Spot on Brother of mine! I think the Church has gone a long way to make that message more clear today.

… Aside from that, much of the rest is a little hazy. I know this post is very different from what I have written previously, but I seem to have entered a bit of a “dark time of the soul.” I won’t say that I’m depressed. I’m merely thoughtful. I believe that I can resolve all these issues and still remain within Christian orthodoxy. I’m just a little confused at the moment.

I thank you all for any help on these matters.

God bless!Hey, been here, done this, and there is no stupid tee shirt…

PM or e-mail me if you just wanna ramble and talk. I’m happy to be here for ya.
Pax tecum,

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I thank you all for your responses. They have all been extremely helpful to me. I have also done a great deal of thinking and praying over the last few days. Ultimately I believe that when these negative feelings against God and Christianity arise, they are really a cover of sorts, an excuse for sin. Obedience and trust are more difficult, but that is the way we all must go. My journey to the Catholic Church has been a bit slower than I had planned, and new obstacles often seem to jump in my way. Still, I am determined to enter the Church as soon as I can. I thank everyone on this forum for your help!

May God bless you all!

 

[tm30]

First and foremost is the idea of justice, mercy and Hell. The Christian idea appears to be that the vast majority of people who have ever lived will spend eternity being tormented in ways beyond imagining. An eternity of suffering is the punishment for an extremely short lifetime of sin. People often say that those in Hell really choose it deliberately. This is something I have trouble accepting. Who chooses an eternity of suffering over an eternity of happiness? I suggest that if someone were to do so, it would be quite likely that they suffered from a serious mental disorder. Should they be punished for this? Christians say that God is just and merciful. Is it just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite crime? Is it merciful?

The same can be asked of Adam and Eve. How on earth, since they were living in paradise, did they choose to listen to the serpent instead? They had the power to choose Hell, and they did. Now, of course, right after that, God told them they could be redeemed, but when they took the apple, they chose Hell.

Part of the problem in understanding Hell is this notion that people are given a questionnaire at the time of death and check mark “Heaven” or “Hell” in determining where they go. According to Scripture, the same fire emanating from God tests and purifies the saints, but burns the wicked:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

“Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

Daniel 12:10

“Many shall be chosen, and made white, and shall be tried as fire”

Proverbs 17:3

“As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.”

On the other hand, for the wicked:

Revelation 14:10

“… [they] shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.”

Luke 3:16,17

“… he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Jeremiah 4:4

“Be circumcised to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your hearts, ye men of Juda, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my indignation come forth like fire, and burn, and there be none that can quench it because of the wickedness of your thoughts.”

So, if any of this is true, then it seems to me that God tries ALL people by fire. But what differentiates the wicked from the saints is the effect of that fire. For the good, in light of their good deeds, the fire warms and purifies their souls. For the wicked, the fire burns relentlessly, so much so they cannot stand to be in the presence of God. According to Revelation, even those in hell are still in God’s presence and within the site of the angels. The eternal fire is the regret of loss and the hatred of God who dares to be the final Judge.

Some believe that hell is akin to a geographical location. As if one could give someone directions - “yeah, it’s down the hall and to the left.” No. Hell is indeed real. And it is indeed a place of burning. But that burning is within the soul itself. If Hell is a “place”, then it’s a place that was created. And the only Creator is God Himself. So by declaring Hell a “place” we make the mistake of declaring that God created a place of evil, which is impossible. That place of evil is wherever that soul is, in its torment. And according to Scripture, it’s in the presence of God and the angels, which makes the self-inflicted torture of our sins particularly unbearable.

I hope this helps. No one “chooses” hell, but our “choices” in this life determine whether our souls will be warmed and purified by the fire of God, or scorched and tormented by the same fire.