Troubling experience at Daily Mass

[benedictgal]

My parish did not have daily Mass today because of Labor Day. Due to distance constraints, I chose to go to one of the downtown parishes that had daily Mass. It is a decision that I now regret.

The Mass was in Spanish. Everything seemed okay up until the Sanctus. The celebrant used an ilicit version of the Sanctus in Spanish that added words to the official text. It was rather strange. After the consecration of the Precious Blood, he launched into singing a line from a Spanish praise song, “Tan cerca de ti”, in lieu of one of the three approved Memorial Acclamations. He did not even state “Proclamamos el mysterio de nuestra fe”. He had two EMHCs with him (both assisting with the distribution of the Precious Blood), but, asked one of them to go to the tabernacle. (they were seated with him the whole time).

After Mass, I waited to speak to him. Given the fact that he had preached about St. Paul offering frraternal correction, I saw this as my inroad to charitably address this matter with him.

We had a brief visit. I told him that in light of his homily, I had some observations that I wanted to share with him. I told him that, according to the Church, the faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Mass according to the norms and rubrics. He agreed. I also told him that the Church provides for us official texts that she asks us to use. He agreed. I told him that I was concerned about the Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamation, as what we used is not in the official texts of the Church (yes, I know the texts in Spanish). Mind you, I was as charitable as I could be with him without sounding antagonistic.

He thanked me for my concern, but, he started commenting about the Pharisees and about how they were treating Jesus. I explained to him that I was expecting this remark, but, that Jesus’ debates with the Pharisees had absolutely nothing to do with the sacrificial cultic worship of Ancient Isarel. In fact, Jesus never had any qualms about Ancient Israel’s worship because His own Father had dictated the norms and prescriptions. Furthermore, the Pharisees were rather anti-priestly. He was surprised at my response. We shook hands and I left. Unfortunately, I do not think that anything will come of this.

I will say this. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak on His behalf. I felt that today with this particular priest. I could have left the church and not said anything, but, I strongly believe that these matters needed to be addressed.

 

[m134e5]

You never know what may come of the meeting with the priest. At least you were charitable about it- if nothing more, you let him know that reverence at Mass is more important than entertainment value. You took time to talk about it, so he’s more likely to think about it (whether he means to or not). Now, pray for him.

It’s a shame that your parish didn’t have daily Mass for Labor Day. On a day when more people than normal are free to go to weekday morning Mass, they should make it more convenient for people to go to it.

 

[Spirithound]

Oh benedictgal, I do hope that you are being hyperbolous in saying you regret going to Mass. It is unfortunate when priests feel the need to deviate from the rubrics, but you were very charitable. God bless you.

 

[benedictgal]

It is the location I chose that I regret, not the fact that I went to Mass. I understand that my parish could not have Mass on Monday because we were short. I just have to be careful about altenative Mass locales.

 

[PatrickSebast]

If this happened to me I wouldn’t even know. Even if it was in a language I understood I simply expect that the priest always knows what he is doing better than I do. Guess it is good that someone pays attention to the details, because I doubt I will even catch such things.

 

[Sherry_G]

Thank you Benedictgal for saying yes to the Holy Spirit and having a conversation with the priest to discuss the inappropriate prayers and substitutions. It would be worth attending Mass again in the near future to see if any corrections were made. If the problem persisted, a word with the Bishop would be in order for the good of the Church.

 

[Chirp]

My parish did not have daily Mass today because of Labor Day. Due to distance constraints, I chose to go to one of the downtown parishes that had daily Mass. It is a decision that I now regret.

The Mass was in Spanish. Everything seemed okay up until the Sanctus. The celebrant used an ilicit version of the Sanctus in Spanish that added words to the official text. It was rather strange. After the consecration of the Precious Blood, he launched into singing a line from a Spanish praise song, “Tan cerca de ti”, in lieu of one of the three approved Memorial Acclamations. He did not even state “Proclamamos el mysterio de nuestra fe”. He had two EMHCs with him (both assisting with the distribution of the Precious Blood), but, asked one of them to go to the tabernacle. (they were seated with him the whole time).

After Mass, I waited to speak to him. Given the fact that he had preached about St. Paul offering frraternal correction, I saw this as my inroad to charitably address this matter with him.

We had a brief visit. I told him that in light of his homily, I had some observations that I wanted to share with him. I told him that, according to the Church, the faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Mass according to the norms and rubrics. He agreed. I also told him that the Church provides for us official texts that she asks us to use. He agreed. I told him that I was concerned about the Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamation, as what we used is not in the official texts of the Church (yes, I know the texts in Spanish). Mind you, I was as charitable as I could be with him without sounding antagonistic.

He thanked me for my concern, but, he started commenting about the Pharisees and about how they were treating Jesus. I explained to him that I was expecting this remark, but, that Jesus’ debates with the Pharisees had absolutely nothing to do with the sacrificial cultic worship of Ancient Isarel. In fact, Jesus never had any qualms about Ancient Israel’s worship because His own Father had dictated the norms and prescriptions. Furthermore, the Pharisees were rather anti-priestly. He was surprised at my response. We shook hands and I left. Unfortunately, I do not think that anything will come of this.

I will say this. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak on His behalf. I felt that today with this particular priest. I could have left the church and not said anything, but, I strongly believe that these matters needed to be addressed.

 

[pinctor]

I am inclined to ask,“What is the Spanish for don’t try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs?”

 

[Spirithound]

I am inclined to ask,“What is the Spanish for don’t try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs?”

Literal:
No ensena a tu abuela como sorber huevos!

Figurative (doesn’t seem very proverby though…):
?Que me vas a ensenar tu a mi?

 

[benedictgal]

If this happened to me I wouldn’t even know. Even if it was in a language I understood I simply expect that the priest always knows what he is doing better than I do. Guess it is good that someone pays attention to the details, because I doubt I will even catch such things.

I own a frayed copy of the Roman Missal in Spanish. A priest friend of mine gave it to me. It’s old and the cloth cover is rather tattered. I also have some old missallettes with the parts of the Mass in Spanish.

Unfortunately, what I witnessed at Mass on Monday is not a one-time feat. It happens rather often, sadly. In fact, it happens almost every Sunday when unsuspecting parishes use a popular Spanish-language of the Gloria that is ilicit because it chops off the prayer and paraphrases it. Worse yet, I have also heard “Christ has died…” translated into Spanish. This is highly ilicit because this particular acclamation does not show up in any of the other language groups. This is an ICEL innovation that occurs only in English, but, will be obsolete Advent 2011.

Sadly, we have OCP to thank for these paraphrases because most, if not all, of the parishes down here use the publishing house for their Spanish-language material. But, in the case of what I witnessed on Sunday, I cannot blame this one on OCP.

 

[Timothy17]

My parish did not have daily Mass today because of Labor Day. Due to distance constraints, I chose to go to one of the downtown parishes that had daily Mass. It is a decision that I now regret.

The Mass was in Spanish. Everything seemed okay up until the Sanctus. The celebrant used an ilicit version of the Sanctus in Spanish that added words to the official text. It was rather strange. After the consecration of the Precious Blood, he launched into singing a line from a Spanish praise song, “Tan cerca de ti”, in lieu of one of the three approved Memorial Acclamations. He did not even state “Proclamamos el mysterio de nuestra fe”. He had two EMHCs with him (both assisting with the distribution of the Precious Blood), but, asked one of them to go to the tabernacle. (they were seated with him the whole time).

After Mass, I waited to speak to him. Given the fact that he had preached about St. Paul offering frraternal correction, I saw this as my inroad to charitably address this matter with him.

We had a brief visit. I told him that in light of his homily, I had some observations that I wanted to share with him. I told him that, according to the Church, the faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Mass according to the norms and rubrics. He agreed. I also told him that the Church provides for us official texts that she asks us to use. He agreed. I told him that I was concerned about the Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamation, as what we used is not in the official texts of the Church (yes, I know the texts in Spanish). Mind you, I was as charitable as I could be with him without sounding antagonistic.

He thanked me for my concern, but, he started commenting about the Pharisees and about how they were treating Jesus. I explained to him that I was expecting this remark, but, that Jesus’ debates with the Pharisees had absolutely nothing to do with the sacrificial cultic worship of Ancient Isarel. In fact, Jesus never had any qualms about Ancient Israel’s worship because His own Father had dictated the norms and prescriptions. Furthermore, the Pharisees were rather anti-priestly. He was surprised at my response. We shook hands and I left. Unfortunately, I do not think that anything will come of this.

I will say this. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak on His behalf. I felt that today with this particular priest. I could have left the church and not said anything, but, I strongly believe that these matters needed to be addressed.

Well handled. That’s a good example for others if I ever heard one.

Pax,
Tim

 

[miniquedoes]

In fact, it happens almost every Sunday when unsuspecting parishes use a popular Spanish-language of the Gloria that is ilicit because it chops off the prayer and paraphrases it. Worse yet, I have also heard “Christ has died…” translated into Spanish. This is highly ilicit because this particular acclamation does not show up in any of the other language groups. .

Can you give some examples please? I attend a church that is mainly Spanish speaking and has several Spanish Masses but never realized there was a problem with the translation Also can you explain about the “Christ has died?” Thanks

 

[benedictgal]

Can you give some examples please? I attend a church that is mainly Spanish speaking and has several Spanish Masses but never realized there was a problem with the translation Also can you explain about the “Christ has died?” Thanks

Here is the Spanish language version of the Gloria that is popular down here, but, ilicit:

Gloria al Senor que reina en los cielos y en la tierra paz a los hombres que ama el.

Senor, te alabamos. Senor, te bendicimos. Todos te adoramos. Gracias por tu gloria.

Tu eres el Cordero, que quitas el pecado. Ten piedad de nosotros y escucha nuestra oracion.

Tu solo eres Santo, tu solo el altissimo con el Espiritu Santo en la gloria de Dios Padre.

This is a paraphrase of the official, approved text that the Church provides for use in Mexico. In the United States, for the time being, we use the Roman Missal and Lectionary approved for use in Mexico for Masses celebrated in the Spanish language. The text that OCP includes in their books as an option for the Gloria is not a valid one because it does not match the word-for-word official translation.

“Christ has died…” which will be obsolete with the corrected translation of the Roman Missal exists, for now, only in the English-language version of the Roman Missal. This was an innovation introduced by ICEL. This acclamation does not exist in the origial Latin version of the Roman Missal. Unfortunately, both the Gloria that I quoted and “Cristo ha muerto” are used a lot down here.

 

[At_Trent]

It is the location I chose that I regret, not the fact that I went to Mass. I understand that my parish could not have Mass on Monday because we were short. ** I just have to be careful about altenative Mass locales.**

Heh, you better believe it. I’ve seen some doozies.

 

[benedictgal]

Heh, you better believe it. I’ve seen some doozies.

So have I.

 

[mcmitton]

When I hear an “alteration” during the liturgy, that moment of concentration/worship et al is totally broken.

I really don’t understand why those priests would even want to change any word. I can’t believe they do so out of ignorance.

Benedictgal, I admire your faithfulness to the liturgy, precise liturgical observation.

Mary Carolyn

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

“Christ has died…” which will be obsolete with the corrected translation of the Roman Missal exists, for now, only in the English-language version of the Roman Missal. This was an innovation introduced by ICEL. This acclamation does not exist in the origial Latin version of the Roman Missal.

I could be wrong but I don’t even think the US Bishops submitted it for approval for the new missal.
Failure of something to appear in Latin is not grounds to keep it out. “I believe” is used only once in the Latin text of the Creed but appears 3 times in the English Missal.

 

[benedictgal]

I could be wrong but I don’t even think the US Bishops submitted it for approval for the new missal.
Failure of something to appear in Latin is not grounds to keep it out. “I believe” is used only once in the Latin text of the Creed but appears 3 times in the English Missal.

Actually, ICEL had submitted it initially, according to an interview that Raymond Arroyo had with George Cardinal Pell; however, because it was not in the Latin Roman Missal, permission to include it was denied.

The addition of the extra “I believe” phrases was, however, approved by the CDWDS.

Be that as it may, “Christ has died” only appears in the English-language translation of the Roman Missal. That does not mean that composers have the right to create a new acclamation and insert into another language.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Actually, ICEL had submitted it initially, according to an interview that Raymond Arroyo had with George Cardinal Pell; however, because it was not in the Latin Roman Missal, permission to include it was denied.p

We’ll see what happens in Canada. IIRC, they have a different introduction for each memorial acclaimation.

Be that as it may, “Christ has died” only appears in the English-language translation of the Roman Missal. That does not mean that composers have the right to create a new acclamation and insert into another language.

It makes some sense why a spanish Mass in the USA would include “Christ has died…” as part of their memorial acclaimations.

 

[benedictgal]

We’ll see what happens in Canada. IIRC, they have a different introduction for each memorial acclaimation.

It makes some sense why a spanish Mass in the USA would include “Christ has died…” as part of their memorial acclaimations.

However, during an FDLC meeting that I attended, Msgr. Moroney, then an official with the former Bishops Committee on Liturgy, told us that we were to use the Spanish-language Roman Missal approved for Mexico. “Christ has died” does not appear in that Roman Missal. When I asked the CDWDS about the ilicit parts of the Mass back in December, I posed the question to them (for additional clarification) and they told me that this innovation was not allowed. I was asked to send copies of the texts that we are using (English and Spanish).

When the priest started singning “Tan cerca de ti” in lieu of the Memorial Acclamation, it threw off the faithful and no one responded.