Troubling experience -- end-of-life issues

[Doc_Keele]

Doc, you seem to be determined to misunderstand me.

Not a very charitable response
I’ve quoted what you said.

Would you inform a client whom you knew was Catholic of the Magisterium’s position if their advance directive conflicted with it?

Kage_ar - can a Christian lawyer work for someone of another religion where that religion’s beliefs conflict with “the Christian position”?

 

[Langdell]

Would you inform a client whom you knew was Catholic of the Magisterium’s position if their advance directive conflicted with it?

No. I think I’ve already made that clear.

Since my frustration is leading me to be uncharitable, I won’t comment further.

.

 

[kage_ar]

No. I think I’ve already made that clear.

Since my frustration is leading me to be uncharitable, I won’t comment further.

.

May I borrow your well worded response?

 

[kage_ar]

Kage_ar - can a Christian lawyer work for someone of another religion where that religion’s beliefs conflict with “the Christian position”?

As long as that lawyer is not required to do anything agains the law of God - for example, the attorney may not draw up suicide papers or consul a client to get an abortion.

 

[Doc_Keele]

As long as that lawyer is not required to do anything agains the law of God - for example, the attorney may not draw up suicide papers or consul a client to get an abortion.

So no, in other words (since implicit in my question was being require to do things contrary to Christian beliefs).
So various minorities will be discriminated against in provision of professional services then? And Christians in say Muslim countries couldn’t complain about discrimination by Muslims on the same grounds?

 

[kage_ar]

So no, in other words (since implicit in my question was being require to do things contrary to Christian beliefs).
So various minorities will be discriminated against in provision of professional services then? And Christians in say Muslim countries couldn’t complain about discrimination by Muslims on the same grounds?

An athiest can write up a lease for me just the same as a Jew or a Catholic can.

An athiest can set my broken leg or take out my appendix just the same as a Muslim can.

Now, an athiest doctor may try to influence me to do something against the faith, for example, the many doctors who have pressured me to have my tubes tied. Thankfully, they have all respected my beliefs when I say “I am a Christian and that violates my beliefs” and I have not had to proceede with a claim of discrimination.

If I were living under a Muslim government, I would have no recourse to claim discrimination - making your question unrealistic.

 

[Doc_Keele]

I’ve noticed on a few occasions that you use this smokescreen of unlikeliness when you don’t want to address a point. Do you accept that if Christian professionals can impose their beliefs on people indirectly, that other religions can do the same? So Christian minorities cannot take any high moral ground? The issue of whether or not it would make any difference is not the point at stake.

When I mentioned minorities being discriminated against, I was thinking of non-Christian ethnic minorities living in mostly Christian countries. Not Christians.

 

[Newbie2]

Why is it anti Catholic for someone who is in the end stages of a very painful disease to shorten their life by a little bit and save a lot of pain?

Life is not ours to give or to take.

I don’t think it is part of the professional responsibility of a doctor or lawyer to give spiritual advice - and I could see crossing the boundary getting you in trouble. You’re there to give medical or legal advice. The client or patient informs YOU of their beliefs.

Yes, but I would imagine that there are people who may not know enough to ask about certain provisions that may or may not be affected by their faith. A competant attorney should be aware that such faith issues exist, and ask the client if there are any faith issues that need to be addressed in their legal paperwork.

That’s not to say that the attorney decides what (theologically) to put in there; he or she would suggest that their client speak with their spiritual advisor and address any theological questions.

And being “Catholic” doesn’t mean that one submits to the Magisterium wholly or partially.

Is there any other way to submit besides, “not at all”?

 

[kage_ar]

I’ve noticed on a few occasions that you use this smokescreen of unlikeliness when you don’t want to address a point. Do you accept that if Christian professionals can impose their beliefs on people indirectly, that other religions can do the same? So Christian minorities cannot take any high moral ground? The issue of whether or not it would make any difference is not the point at stake.

When I mentioned minorities being discriminated against, I was thinking of non-Christian ethnic minorities living in mostly Christian countries. Not Christians.

Smokescreen seems to be your word-of-the-day.

Okay, if I were a Christian living under a Muslim govm’t and that govm’t required all defective adults to be sterilized, when they came to sterilize me I would simply climb in my spaceship and migrate to Mars where there is no such law.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Smokescreen seems to be your word-of-the-day

another pointless comment

Okay, if I were a Christian living under a Muslim govm’t and that govm’t required all defective adults to be sterilized, when they came to sterilize me I would simply climb in my spaceship and migrate to Mars where there is no such law.

The Cathechism says colonisation of Mars is inherently evil
I’m just wondering why you think this comment bears any relationship to the posts that have gone before?

 

[Doc_Keele]

Yes, but I would imagine that there are people who may not know enough to ask about certain provisions that may or may not be affected by their faith. A competant attorney should be aware that such faith issues exist, and ask the client if there are any faith issues that need to be addressed in their legal paperwork

I absolutely agree 100%

That’s not to say that the attorney decides what (theologically) to put in there; he or she would suggest that their client speak with their spiritual advisor and address any theological questions

Exactly!

Is there any other way to submit besides, “not at all”?

Some people who describe themselves as Catholic might not submit to the Magisterium at all.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

This issue is near and dear to my heart right now, as I have been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor (probably less than a year to live untreated, treatment may add some months to my life).

After a bit of reading I have learned that a “living will” that spells out exactly what to do in lots of different scenarios is NOT the way to go. There is no way you can anticipate all the different scenarios that could happen and express your wishes for each of them. What I chose to do is to execute a pro-life “Living Will and Health Care Power of Attorney” which lays out some pro-life guidelines for decision-making, and which designates a pro-life friend I trust (and a couple of alternates in case she is not available at decision-making time) to make decisions on my behalf.

There are several of this type of document available online, but you have to READ THEM CAREFULLY. Don’t assume that, because a document is authored by a Catholic organization (or even by a group of Catholic bishops) that it is well constructed. I read the living will document authored by my home state’s conference of Catholic bishops, and I found a couple of serious flaws in it that I had to strike out before signing.

Whatever you do, DON’T leave these things to chance. It is too important.

Besides making sure that your own pro-life wishes are carried out, this can be a “teachable moment” for family and friends — a way to share the Gospel of Life. I don’t do this by hitting anyone over the head with a baseball bat about it, but I am taking little opportunities as they present themselves to let family members and friends know that pro-life considerations are part of my decision-making process regarding end-of-life matters (e.g., by copying my doctors, pastor, and family members on the living will, and by answering honestly when they question my decisions).

Please keep me and my family in your prayers as we navigate these muddy waters. Join me in praying for the conversion of sinners and unbelievers, especially for the conversion of my agnostic husband for whom I am offering this little trial (it’s just a tiny sliver of the Cross; God is being very merciful to me).

 

[Doc_Keele]

I’m really sorry to hear about your condition Philothea. You’re right, having someone who knows what you would want is far superior to an advance directive, depending on whether your jurisdiction allows your proxy to make a substituted judgment, rather than having to go with your “best interests”.

What has been forgotten or not appreciated is that (in my jurisdiction) that in the lack of any specific knowledge of the person’s wishes, generally there is a presumption for life. I know there will be naysayers disagreeing, but the case law in my jurisdiction demonstrates this quite convincingly. Also advance directives or proxies can’t mandate that inappropriate care can be given, so generally they are concerned with refusing treatment that the patient would consider inappropriate for them. So this is why pro-life considerations aren’t really a big issue for advance directives.

 

[Doc_Keele]

…and Burke v GMC established that UK doctors couldn’t be obliged to keep providing artificial nutrition and hydration until death.

 

[Langdell]

May I borrow your well worded response?

Be my guest!

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[Veganism]

No human being truly wants to die and therefore it is always wrong to support them commiting suicide.

 

[Doc_Keele]

No human being truly wants to die and therefore it is always wrong to support them commiting suicide.

There’s a well-recognized group of people who rationally desire to end their lives. The evidence is there.

 

[hitched]

Chronic pain and suffering is the great leveler. Decisions made in relatively good health may not stand up to the rigors of a protracted, financially draining and painfully difficult death.

Is slow death on morphine, when the patient is comatose or unconscious for great lengths of time, giving glory to God? I disagree with some posters: there are human beings who would rather experience the absolute end of life rather than spend another five seconds in excruciating pain.

One size does not fit all on this issue.

hitched

 

[Ridgerunner]

What I’m saying is that the doctor/lawyer should be aware of the options that exist and should make the patient aware of those options. If the patient then says, I’m an atheist, or I don’t care, or whatever, then fine. But as part of his/her professional responsibility, I think any lawyer (I can’t speak for doctors) should know the options and make the client aware of them. I almost never do the first thing that a client tells me s/he wants to do.

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I don’t think this is necessarily a conscience problem for Catholic lawyers. A Catholic lawyer friend of mine does write them for people. He only does them in connection with doing other tasks, like writing wills or trusts or POAs. He does inquire into the religion of the individual, and puts it in the Living Will that the person’s pastor, minister or priest be included in the decisionmaking process and that whatever happens be according to the teachings of that religion. Even then, the “if this, then that” part is really tight.

He says Catholics generally know what the Church teaches, and he has a “Catholic specific” one. He simply refuses to write one if the client won’t tell him his religion or if a Catholic wants something contrary to the teachings of the Church.

He’s really good at what he does, very empathetic, and nobody has ever walked out on him because of his requirements. They do the other documents and go elsewhere for the Living Will if they want one.

He never charges for Living Wills because, he says, they’re really not quite legal documents and not quite medical documents, because the terminology really can’t be precise in a legal sense or in a medical sense.

He also informed me that almost nobody really has any understanding of the documents put out by hospitals, physicians and governmental units.

One amusing thing. He tells people to entrust the Living Will with the most trusted person in their lives, and NEVER to simply hand them to physicians or hospitals. (they all want them, but can’t demand them) Because of the way medical records are kept and transferred, you’re potentially putting your life into the hands of “the third shift charge nurse” if you get one into a physician’s or hospital’s chart.

Maybe Langdell or one of the other lawyers on here can comment further, but the above all made sense to me.

 

[Langdell]

I don’t think this is necessarily a conscience problem for Catholic lawyers. A Catholic lawyer friend of mine does write them for people. He only does them in connection with doing other tasks, like writing wills or trusts or POAs. He does inquire into the religion of the individual, and puts it in the Living Will that the person’s pastor, minister or priest be included in the decisionmaking process and that whatever happens be according to the teachings of that religion. Even then, the “if this, then that” part is really tight.

He says Catholics generally know what the Church teaches, and he has a “Catholic specific” one. He simply refuses to write one if the client won’t tell him his religion or if a Catholic wants something contrary to the teachings of the Church.

He’s really good at what he does, very empathetic, and nobody has ever walked out on him because of his requirements. They do the other documents and go elsewhere for the Living Will if they want one.

He never charges for Living Wills because, he says, they’re really not quite legal documents and not quite medical documents, because the terminology really can’t be precise in a legal sense or in a medical sense.

He also informed me that almost nobody really has any understanding of the documents put out by hospitals, physicians and governmental units.

One amusing thing. He tells people to entrust the Living Will with the most trusted person in their lives, and NEVER to simply hand them to physicians or hospitals. (they all want them, but can’t demand them) Because of the way medical records are kept and transferred, you’re potentially putting your life into the hands of “the third shift charge nurse” if you get one into a physician’s or hospital’s chart.

Maybe Langdell or one of the other lawyers on here can comment further, but the above all made sense to me.

He sounds like a great lawyer! And his approach sounds eminently reasonable.

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