Troubling Verse in the Knox Bible

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You’re taking “temptator” and “intemptator” as future passive verbs, whereas I’m taking them as ordinary nouns. There’s no graceful way to put “God is the un-tempter” into English, though.

I don’t know Greek, and I don’t know if Knox was going by any Greek variant wordings or what. But it was asked where he could have gotten it, and it does look like he got it from the Latin (which oftentimes does preserve older Greek readings).
 
The more I read it the more I’m convinced there should be an understood “dicat” to make the comparison between God and the “no man.” Both “temptator” and “intemptator” are in first person singular.
Correction: according to Cassell’s “temptator” is a noun, meaning “an assailant.”

“Tempto, temptare” would be the verb meaning “to prove, try, test.” Cassell’s then goes on and provides additional meanings and contexts.
 
The more I read it the more I’m convinced there should be an understood “dicat” to make the comparison between God and the “no man.” Both “temptator” and “intemptator” are in first person singular.
Correction: according to Cassell’s “temptator” is a noun, meaning “an assailant.”

“Tempto, temptare” would be the verb meaning “to prove, try, test.” Cassell’s then goes on and provides additional meanings and contexts.
nemo | cum | temptatur | dicat | quoniam | a | Deo | temptor | deus | enim | intemptator | malorum | est | ipse | autem | neminem | temptat
According to this website the Latin (Nova Vulgata, perhaps?) should be
13 Nemo cum tentatur, dicat quoniam a Deo tentatur: Deus enim intentator malorum est: ipse autem neminem tentat.
newadvent.org/bible/jam001.htm
 
Is there a Brit in the house? As well as the national/cultural language use issues, we are looking at 80 years since this translation was begun. For information, here is the exact footnote and the linguistic vagaries it alludes to:
“[2] ‘God may threaten us with evil’; this seems to be the only possible meaning of the Latin, if the text here is correct. The sense of the Greek is, ‘God is unversed in evil’, or perhaps ‘is not tempted by evil’; others would render it, ‘does not tempt men to evil’.”
The 1941-1969 Confraternity Bible (IMO vastly superior to the current “American” bible series) has it:
“Let no man say when he is tempted, that he is tempted by God; for God is no tempter to evil, and he himself tempts no one.”
Monsignor Knox’s use of the qualifiers “seems” “if” and "perhaps"in his footnote fairly clearly indicates that he was making no definitive declaration regarding that sentence. As to God “threatening” - or is that “promising”? - we should be familiar enough with that usage from the OT.

For those who know Monsignor Ronald Knox only by this thread’s oblique references to his surname, his bio reveals that he was a rather remarkable priest. His translation copyrighted in 1944 carries both the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat, so we can safely surmise that it was reasonably well gone over. In that same edition, Monsignor Knox openly solicited comments and corrections from all readers, not merely the clergy.

This would be an excellent question for Jimmy Akin to address, I would think.
 
… The 1941-1969 Confraternity Bible (IMO vastly superior to the current “American” bible series) has it: … His translation copyrighted in 1944
FWIW, all these translations were made before the Nova Vulgata was issued. Perhaps we need to take a step back and revisit some of the old translations in light of the NV. Or maybe even attempt our own translations/opinions based on it.
 
Correction: according to Cassell’s “temptator” is a noun, meaning “an assailant.”

“Tempto, temptare” would be the verb meaning “to prove, try, test.” Cassell’s then goes on and provides additional meanings and contexts.

According to this website the Latin (Nova Vulgata, perhaps?) should be
newadvent.org/bible/jam001.htm
Sorry, but it is also a verb, future passive:
And, without it as a verb, the clauses would be lacking at least one and probably two verbs (temptator at the beginning of the verse and intemptator in the second half of the verse) .
And, with it as a passive verb it is in 100 % agreement in meaning with the Greek,
And, without it as a verb it is in 100% disagreement with the Greek.

So, go with Knox where he leads you if you must, but I can’t.

John Martin
 
Well, there’s nothing wrong with that conclusion.

The Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat say, “Nothing here has any error that will send you to Hell.”

Knox made a translation that did have a foundation in the text but which was iffy, and apparently he knew it was a judgment call that was up for grabs.

Mr. Martin says, “You know, Fr. Knox, in this particular case I think you didn’t make the right translation choice, and I’ll go with something closer to Greek in a Bible that also has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.”

Other readers of Mr. Knox may say, “Well, I think it was a good judgment call, or I’m unwilling to say it wasn’t, unless I find more info.”

There you go. Everybody has used their prudence and skill, they are sharpening their wits off each other, and maybe we have learned something more about the truth from it. This is what close reading and argumentation are for.
 
Ronald Knox himself has this to say about the verse in his book “A New Testament Commentary for English Readers.”

"What, then, is meant by the second half of verse 13? The Latin, whatever it means, is probably based on a false reading; the Greek manuscripts, without exception, give us the phrase “God is untempted of evil things (or, possibly, evil men,) but he himself does not tempt anyone.” Some commentators would take the participle in an active sense, “God does not tempt us to evil things,” or “God does not tempt men who are (consequently) evil.” But this is very doubtful Greek; and on this interpretation the second half of the sentence would be a bare repetition of the first. On the other hand, the statement that “God is untempted by evil,” presumably in the sense that he is not tempted to commit evil, is one that hardly needed to be made; nor, on this shewing, is there any true logical relationship between the two halves of the sentence, in spite of its apparent symmetry. St. James only needed to tell us that God is entirely good; whether he is tempted to do evil does not matter. It is better, then, to take the participle in its proper classical sense of “unversed in,” “without experience of.” Moral evil is a thing outside of God’s orbit; impossible, then that he should tempt us to commit it.

"But does even this explanation satisfy? “God is unversed in evil, and consequently he does not tempt anyone” --The verb has not the same meaning in the first clause as in the second. And the run of the sentence in the Greek very much suggests a contrast, whereas there is no shadow of contrast here. Why again, should the Apostle describe Almighty God as “unversed” in evil, as if he acquired qualities by experience? Is it not worth remembering that the phrase “to tempt God” is one of common occurrence both in the Old and in the New Testaments? And on the other hand God is said to “tempt” man (Gen 22:1). St. James may be saying, in effect, “You must not be misled by the use of this word tempt in describing the relations between God and man. When the Israelites tempted God in the desert, it was not temptation in our sense of the word, i.e. something felt as an affliction. And when God tempted Abraham, it was not temptation in our sense of the word --God was not trying to make him do something wrong. You must not therefore, tell yourself that it is God who is trying to make you do something wrong, when you are tempted to sin. The source of the temptation lies in yourself.” All this he sums up --rather obscurely-- in the words “God is not (really)* tempted* by our evil actions; nor, on the other hand, does he himself tempt us to act evilly.”

I think this shows that Knox was VERY careful about achieving exactly what is meant here by St. James, although the Greek and Latin texts, even when used in conjunction, are unclear.
 
Sorry, but it is also a verb, future passive:
The future passive ending of a first conjugation verb would be -abor, not -ator. If one goes with the New Advent Latin (Nova Vulgata?)

13 Nemo cum tentatur, dicat quoniam a Deo tentatur: Deus enim intentator malorum est: ipse autem neminem tentat.

the verb tentatur is present 3rd person passive and intentator appears to be a noun or a present passive first person verb. Does the Greek remove the ambiguity?
 
A path fraught with danger - both seen and unseen. Germany had such a problem 500 years ago, when someone decided to translate their own bible.
Fair point. But any translation comes with danger. That’s the point of this thread, no?

But that said, it does behoove people to study Hebrew, Greek, and Latin just to see how the translation is derived and if it makes sense to them.

.
 
Well, there’s nothing wrong with that conclusion.

The Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat say, “Nothing here has any error that will send you to Hell.”

Knox made a translation that did have a foundation in the text but which was iffy, and apparently he knew it was a judgment call that was up for grabs.

Mr. Martin says, “You know, Fr. Knox, in this particular case I think you didn’t make the right translation choice, and I’ll go with something closer to Greek in a Bible that also has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.”

Other readers of Mr. Knox may say, “Well, I think it was a good judgment call, or I’m unwilling to say it wasn’t, unless I find more info.”

There you go. Everybody has used their prudence and skill, they are sharpening their wits off each other, and maybe we have learned something more about the truth from it. This is what close reading and argumentation are for.
How about we rely on the guidance of the Magisterium? I would hope that we can agree on that.

We should also understand that no translation is entirely accurate - the fruits of the generation which built the Tower of Babel.

I have numerous translations, because each misses the bull’s eye by just a bit. Via consulting various translations, the actual bull’s eye may be bracketed, lending further direction to our thoughts on a given passage or book.

All of this points, once again, to the great blessing that the Magisterium is. The answers to our questions, if known, are contained within the pages of the catechism.

Each and every translation, at some point, has revealed (or will reveal) its weaknesses.

To those who may intimate, even if subconsciously, that Monsignor Knox might have played fast and loose with the translation, I would say to rein in those thoughts just a bit. Many of us (if not most) have not even read the entire bible, let alone translate it from ancient languages into a modern language. Think of the awesome responsibility and burden that was to him.
 
I have numerous translations, because each misses the bull’s eye by just a bit. Via consulting various translations, the actual bull’s eye may be bracketed, lending further direction to our thoughts on a given passage or book.
Any of them other than English? Most of what I’ve read in English is about the same thing, just worded differently. But that’s only an issue if you start memorizing verbatim from one English Bible and/or you decide to set doctrinal standards with it. I’m beginning to like Knox myself but I realize that Knox does not set new doctrinal standards. And as we’ve all seen, the Vatican is ready to toss out translations which attempt to do so, albeit not too swiftly. 🙂
 
Any of them other than English? Most of what I’ve read in English is about the same thing, just worded differently. But that’s only an issue if you start memorizing verbatim from one English Bible and/or you decide to set doctrinal standards with it. I’m beginning to like Knox myself but I realize that Knox does not set new doctrinal standards. And as we’ve all seen, the Vatican is ready to toss out translations which attempt to do so, albeit not too swiftly. 🙂
As to the thread title, I have zero problem with that verse. As always, it is how we interpret it. How many times are promises and threats conflated? God has promised justice - which we may view as a threat. He has told us of the consequences of our actions, and we have the choice. Another case of the flesh warring against the spirit, as Saint Paul wrote.

The more translations I read, the more I am attracted to the Vulgate-based editions. In a bible-based nation such as the US, scripture must identify with, and confirm Catholic belief - being a product of it. Modern translations carry what I see as the taint of higher criticism, which errs on the side of disregarding the sacred Tradition. Words have various meanings and if one dismisses Tradition (which provides context), they risk producing corrupted versions of God’s word, by however much or little.

I have a San Pablo press Spanish Latinoamerica translation as well, and it is fairly good, but is not Vulgate-based, so a few of the verses do not comport fully with Catholic doctrine - but neither do they oppose it.
 
I have a San Pablo press Spanish Latinoamerica translation as well, and it is fairly good, but is not Vulgate-based, so a few of the verses do not comport fully with Catholic doctrine - but neither do they oppose it.
It is good that you see this; most can’t or won’t. They will take, for example, the “for you and for all” doctrine and try to defend that, as many did. While it’s not wrong the way it was worded, nevertheless the Vatican decided that the old doctrine “pro vobis et pro multis” needed to be preached instead. The Vulgate is still the best bet as to what the Magisterium tries to teach. This is evidenced by the amount of effort made to update to the Nova Vulgata using heretofore undiscovered Greek and Hebrew texts.
 
It is good that you see this; most can’t or won’t. They will take, for example, the “for you and for all” doctrine and try to defend that, as many did. While it’s not wrong the way it was worded, nevertheless the Vatican decided that the old doctrine “pro vobis et pro multis” needed to be preached instead. The Vulgate is still the best bet as to what the Magisterium tries to teach. This is evidenced by the amount of effort made to update to the Nova Vulgata using heretofore undiscovered Greek and Hebrew texts.
There may be new discoveries until the Parousia. However, all must be tested against the deposit of faith, as manuscripts could have been produced and maintained by Arians, Gnostics or other early heretics. Antiquity does not automatically equal legitimacy. While higher criticism may have a part to play, lacking the Tradition, it must be a very limited part.
 
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