True believers vs partial believers. Can the "SAVED" be saved?

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

Every ordination I have seen the bishops lay both hands of also.

CCC 1300 The essential rite of the sacrament follows. In the Latin rite, "the sacrament of Confirmation is conferred through the anointing with chrism on the forehead, which is done by the laying on of the hand, and through the words: ‘Accipe signaculum doni Spiritus Sancti’ [Be sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit.].

That is what I said and my sponsor lay their hand on my shoulder.

 

[jlhargus]

1. not requiring both bread and wine for communion (Mt 26:26, 27)

JL: Does your denomination use bread and wine? In my former Protestant denomination we didn’t. It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use. That’s contrary to bread and wine which scripture says Christ used. It seems a tad bit hypocritical to accuse others of not following scripture when you don’t follow scripture.

Christ is wholly present under the appearance of bread or wine. Christ died once he dies no more. This is my body this is my blood, this is a sacramental separation of body and blood signifying and Christ’s death. Christ doesn’t die again it is the whole living Christ present in the smallest piece of the bread of life or sup of the blood of Christ. It is only necessary for the priest or one he designates to receive the blood. Sometimes the cup runs out before everyone can receive.

The Church has the authority from Christ to bind and loose she has the right to regulate the sacraments. In the early days of the Church communion was taken to the sick or prisoners under the appearance of bread alone. This is what is known as Apostolic Tradition. We know these things by the lived out faith life as practiced by the Church.

 

[MichaelP3]

It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use.

This is totally not true. I have been to quite a few non-Catholic services in a country that is more than 80% Protestant and have never seen a cracker being used. Grape juice yes (at times) but as an alternative for children and non-drinkers (the wine was still available as well).

I’m not sure were “most of this” information come from but it is a serious error.

Regards

 

[ltwin]

JL: Does your denomination use bread and wine? In my former Protestant denomination we didn’t. It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use.

I’ve heard posters on CAF talk about crackers, but I’ve never seen it. I’ve been in churches that used communion wafers or actual loafs of bread. Of course, being Pentecostal, it was always grape juice.

But one explanation for using certain types of crackers, tortillas, or Matzoh bread would be the fact that these are unleavened and it’s just more convenient to buy these from the store than to order special communion wafers.

 

[lilypadrees]

gazelam:

1. not requiring both bread and wine for communion (Mt 26:26, 27)

JL: Does your denomination use bread and wine? In my former Protestant denomination we didn’t. It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use. That’s contrary to bread and wine which scripture says Christ used. It seems a tad bit hypocritical to accuse others of not following scripture when you don’t follow scripture.

Christ is wholly present under the appearance of bread or wine. Christ died once he dies no more. This is my body this is my blood, this is a sacramental separation of body and blood signifying and Christ’s death. Christ doesn’t die again it is the whole living Christ present in the smallest piece of the bread of life or sup of the blood of Christ. It is only necessary for the priest or one he designates to receive the blood. Sometimes the cup runs out before everyone can receive.

The Church has the authority from Christ to bind and loose she has the right to regulate the sacraments. In the early days of the Church communion was taken to the sick or prisoners under the appearance of bread alone. This is what is known as Apostolic Tradition. We know these things by the lived out faith life as practiced by the Church.

My experience in Protestant churches was seeing cracker and grape juice as well. That is, when they had Communion. Most of them didn’t.

 

[SnowRose]

My experience is wine and special wafers, offered about 10 times a week in the main parish church (w grape juice in one station at high mass).

#notallprotestantsarethesame

 

[Wannano]

jlhargus:

It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use.

This is totally not true. I have been to quite a few non-Catholic services in a country that is more than 80% Protestant and have never seen a cracker being used. Grape juice yes (at times) but as an alternative for children and non-drinkers (the wine was still available as well).

I’m not sure were “most of this” information come from but it is a serious error.

Regards

It is just so handy to swipe the other side with a big brush…who cares if it is true or not!!

 

[zeland]

It really doesn’t matter what they use, all Protestant “communion” services are just a figurative, make-believe exercise in unbelief. They do not have the Real Presence in their service.

 

[gazelam]

JL: Can you name one of your apostels before the 1800?

No, sorry.

The bishops are apostles but the Church reserves the title apostle to the twelve.

The RCC will reserve what it will reserve. Early Christian records do not correlate to your assertion that bishops are apostles. In his epistle to the Trallians, Bishop Ignatius of Antioch asked: But shall I, when permitted to write on this point, reach such a height of self-esteem, that though being a condemned man, I should issue commands to you as if I were an apostle?

Catholic scholar Francis Sullivan wrote the following regarding catholic apostolic succession:

No doubt proving that bishops were the successors of the apostles by divine institution would be easier if the New Testament clearly stated that before they died the apostles had appointed a single bishop to lead each of the churches they had founded. Likewise, it would have been very helpful had Clement, in writing to the Corinthians, said that the apostles had put one bishop in charge of each church and had arranged for a regular succession in that office. We would also be grateful to Ignatius of Antioch if he had spoken of himself not only as bishop, but as a successor to the apostles, and had explained how he understood that succession. Unfortunately, the documents available to us do not provide such help." (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg 223)

Also, this quote by Rufinius shows that bishop and apostle are two separate offices.

“For some ask, Since Linus and Cletus were bishops in the city of Rome before this Clement, how could Clement himself, writing to James, say that the chair of teaching was handed over to him by Peter? Now of this we have heard this explanation, that Linus and Cletus were indeed bishops in the city of Rome before Clement, but during the lifetime of Peter: that is, that they [Linus and Cletus] undertook the care of the episcopate, and that he [Peter] fulfilled the office of apostleship; as is found also to have been the case at Caesarea, where, when he himself was present, he yet had Zacchaeus, ordained by himself, as bishop.” (Rufinus, Introduction to the Clementine Recognitions, in ANF 8:76)

 

[MichaelP3]

all Protestant “communion” services are just a figurative, make-believe exercise in unbelief

Sometimes I wonder how it will go down if I state in words on here what I think of some topics. Oh wait… I have a pretty good idea what will happen.

So that leaves me with only one safe reply.

“Whatever floats your boat buddy”.

 

[SnowRose]

Sometimes I wonder how it will go down if I state in words on here what I think of some topics. Oh wait… I have a pretty good idea what will happen.

So that leaves me with only one safe reply.

“Whatever floats your boat buddy”

I mostly stick with ”You do you” when faced with a similar situation.

 

[jlhargus]

1. incorrect organization - Ephesians 4:11-13 says "_And he gave some as apostles,

JL: Can you name one of your apostels before the 1800?

No, sorry.

JL: I am glad to see you admit Mormons have an incorrect organization.

The bishops are apostles but the Church reserves the title apostle to the twelve.

[Acts1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.]

[1Thes1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. 5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness: 6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.]

Silvanus and Timothy were not one of the twelve. Yet Paul calls Silvanus and Timothy apostles, along with himself, put in trust with the gospel. Scripture tells us Paul appointed Timothy and Titus as overseers=bishops=apostles.

[2Tm1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the Gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.]

Timothy was not an original apostle but given the grace gift authority of an apostle with laying on of hands of Paul. Both Timothy and Titus were appointed as overseers with the grace gift authority of an apostle, and could pass that grace gift authority on to others in an unbroken line. The authority of apostle has been passed on from apostles to bishops to bishops and will continue “until we all attain a unity of faith” .

[1Tm4:13 Till I come attend to reading to exhortation to doctrine. 14 Do not neglect the gift in you given you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery 16 take heed to yourself to the doctrine continue in them for in doing this you shalt both save yourself and those who hear you.]

[1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.]

[Titus1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:]
[/quote]

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus:

It was a saltine cracker and grape juice as most Protestant denominations use.

This is totally not true. I have been to quite a few non-Catholic services in a country that is more than 80% Protestant and have never seen a cracker being used. Grape juice yes (at times) but as an alternative for children and non-drinkers (the wine was still available as well). I’m not sure were “most of this” information come from but it is a serious error.
Regards

What was the country, was that country mainline Protestant? Evidently I was not clear on the cracker and my denomination. Most if not all evangelicals do not use wine whether all use bread or cracker I don’t know. My point being it is hypocritical to use grape juice and complain Catholic’s are wrong for receiving the bread of Life only.

 

[MichaelP3]

What was the country, was that country mainline Protestant? Evidently I was not clear on the cracker and my denomination. Most if not all evangelicals do not use wine whether all use bread or cracker I don’t know. My point being it is hypocritical to use grape juice and complain Catholic’s are wrong for receiving the bread of Life only.

Good day

Yes mainline Protestant and maybe 3% Catholic. Rest being some local African religion.

I thought you meant Evangelicals? Not sure on the “as most Protestants denominations use” part as that was what you said! So maybe try and separate American Evangelicals from the rest of this perceived group.

Point is you assumed as fact most non-Catholics do it “this way” and that is a wrong assumption. Many “non-American-Evangelicals” will have no idea what you are saying as is the case. The world is larger out there.

Being hypocritical well i didn’t say anything that should put me there. The issues you are referring to seems to really just be an American thing for whatever reason anyone can come up with. But surely try and look outside the USA.

Regards

 

[MichaelP3]

But specifically what Church was this. I find it hard to just think that is a “thing” as I have never experienced it and have been to more than 10 different non-Catholic services. It has never been a Cracker and wine has always been available with grape juice sometimes (for children and non-drinkers, but always wine there as well).

 

[lilypadrees]

I attended many different denominations. One that did the cracker and grape juice was the CoC. They would pass them around in each pew. And each person would take one.

 

[MichaelP3]

Not that the CoC represents "all Protestants " according to the commonly "upheld " umbrella term.

 

[lilypadrees]

Not that the CoC represents "all Protestants " according to the commonly "upheld " umbrella term.

Nor did I claim they did. They are just one example.

 

[jlhargus]

In his epistle to the Trallians, Bishop Ignatius of Antioch asked: But shall I, when permitted to write on this point, reach such a height of self-esteem, that though being a condemned man, I should issue commands to you as if I were an apostle?

JL: I added bold print to the following link remarks.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-trallians-roberts.html

CHAPTER II.–BE SUBJECT TO THE BISHOP, ETC.

For, since ye are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, ye may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as ye indeed do, so without the bishop ye should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire.

CHAPTER III.–HONOUR THE DEACONS, ETC.

In like manner, let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrin of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church. Concerning all this, I am persuaded that ye are of the same opinion. For I have received the manifestations of your love, and still have it with me, in your bishop, whose very appearance is highly instructive, and his meekness of itself a power; whom I imagine even the ungodly must reverence, seeing they are also pleased that I do not spare myself. But shall I, when permitted to write on this point, reach such a height of self-esteem, that though being a condemned man, I should issue commands to you as if I were an apostle?

 

[jlhargus]

Also, this quote by Rufinius shows that bishop and apostle are two separate offices.

“For some ask, Since Linus and Cletus were bishops in the city of Rome before this Clement, how could Clement himself, writing to James, say that the chair of teaching was handed over to him by Peter? Now of this we have heard this explanation, that Linus and Cletus were indeed bishops in the city of Rome before Clement, but during the lifetime of Peter: that is, that they [Linus and Cletus] undertook the care of the episcopate, and that he [Peter] fulfilled the office of apostleship; as is found also to have been the case at Caesarea, where, when he himself was present, he yet had Zacchaeus, ordained by himself, as bishop.” (Rufinus, Introduction to the Clementine Recognitions, in ANF 8:76)

JL: No Rufinius doesn’t show a bishop and apostle are two separate offices. Paul names three ordained ministry’s bishop, presbyter and deacon. Of course Peter would be the overseer just as Paul was overseer of Timothy and Titus who were both overseers of an area. Today some large diocese have two bishops but one is the overseer, the other is called an auxiliary bishop. Judas’ bishoprick was given to another who was named an apostles.

[Acts1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.]

1Thes2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. 5 …. 6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.]

Silvanus and Timothy were not of the twelve. Yet Paul calls Silvanus and Timothy apostles.

[Hb3:1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.] As the Father appointed and sent Christ, Christ sent appointed and the twelve and the twelve appointed and sent others and will continue in unbroken line till the end. An apostle is one sent with the authority of the one sending.

[2Cor5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.]

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=pty&hsimp=yhs-pty_email&param2=a361845a-5982-4376-a036-3ef84c88ec47&param3=email_5.2~US~appfocus1&param4=googlesearch-v3~Chrome~Rufinus%2C+Introduction+to+the+Clementine+Recognitions%2C+in+ANF+8%3A76~0C