True Catholic Church

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I travel on business both domestically and internationally.

A quick call to the local diocesan office where you are planning to travel is invaluable for not only Mass times, but driving directions, etc. If you tell them where you are staying, they can point you to the nearest Church, or a Church that can accomodate any other needs you might have, like schedule.

That way you are sure not to fall into “Bob’s Catholic Church”.
 
Irish Melkite:
Bishop Andre,

Do I understand you correctly? The OC Churches of the Utrecht Union have undertaken ordination of female priests?

Asking your blessing and that God grant you many years,

Neil
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Neil, Blessings,

The Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches does ordain women. The Union is in communion with the Anglican Communion, and after initially threatening to break ties with the Anglican Communion when it initially ordained women, they, years later, decided to follow suit. The only exception is the Polish National Catholic Church, who broke communion with the UU over this issue, and continues as such today. The PNCC maintains an ongoing dialogue with the Roman Catholic Council of Catholic Bishops, and open lines of communication with Rome.

Our Old Catholic Church of the United States has reached out to the Pontifical Council on Promoting Christian Unity recently, with the same in mind, to examine what we hold in common and to work towards Christian unity.

Yours in Christ the King,
  • Andre’ J.W. Queen, SCR
    Old Catholic Bishop of Chicago
    Provincial Ordinary, Western United States
    The Old Catholic Church of the United States
 
Utrecht, are you hopeful that the Catholic Church will change to accommodate your beliefs and practices, or accept them as valid, or does you denomination intended to comply with the teaching of the CC?

Didn’t the Old Catholics split from the Catholic Church over the definition of the doctrine of Papal Infallibiltiy after Vatican I? And now you attempt to ordain women to the “priesthood”?

I don’t see where your hope lies, and why you would be pursuing unity with the very Church you rejected?

Help me understand.

JMJ Jay
 
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Katholikos:
Utrecht, are you hopeful that the Catholic Church will change to accommodate your beliefs and practices, or accept them as valid, or does you denomination intended to comply with the teaching of the CC?

Didn’t the Old Catholics split from the Catholic Church over the definition of the doctrine of Papal Infallibiltiy after Vatican I? And now you attempt to ordain women to the “priesthood”?

I don’t see where your hope lies, and why you would be pursuing unity with the very Church you rejected?

Help me understand.

JMJ Jay
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SIGH

Let me parse this into sections:

First. We do not ordain women. As for what the Utrecht Union Churches do, I do not represent the European Churches and they must speak for themselves. The member churches of the International Synod of Old Catholic Churches do not ordain women.

Second. The Old Catholic Church existed in the Kingdom of the Netherlands for 150 years prior to the Vactican I. The Churches formed in Germany, Switzerland and such did form as a response in part to Vatican I, yet they did not create “Old Catholicism”. The complete and expanded story fills books, and in fact I wrote one on this very subject last year, entitled “Old Catholic: History, Mission, Faith and Minstry”. Far, far too much material for this particular forum.

As for “why pursue unity?” Because what unites us is far greater than what divides us. It goes far beyond partisan politics and petty bickering, and requires a a heartfelt pursuit of unity. This is what Jesus wanted of His Disciples, and if for no other reason than that, it is a most worthy pursuit.

Yours in Christ the King,
  • Andre’ J.W. Queen, SCR
    Old Catholic Bishop of Chicago
    Provincial Ordinary, Western United States
    The Old Catholic Church of the United States
 
I see that a diagram would be needed to follow all the Old Catholic splinters.

JMJ Jay
Ecstatic to be Catholic
 
Well, then I can pop into a Cathedral and recieve communion , recognize all the prayers of the Mass and leave only to find that I was worshipping in an Episcopalian church ! Did God object ? blessings 😉
 
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Katholikos:
Utrecht, are you hopeful that the Catholic Church will change to accommodate your beliefs and practices, or accept them as valid, or does you denomination intended to comply with the teaching of the CC?
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Jay,

The adage of the attractiveness of honey over vinegar is still appropos. His Excellency said
Our Old Catholic Church of the United States has reached out to the Pontifical Council on Promoting Christian Unity recently
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One mission of Catholics is to pray for and work to effect reunion with those who are separated from us. The confrontational attitude evinced by your post is not in that mold. Use of “denomination” to describe a Church, of which you clearly know little, was obviously intended to convey that you were looking down your nose at the OCCUS - it succeeded; you look the less for having done so.
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Katholikos:
… now you attempt to ordain women to the “priesthood”?
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The 2nd sentence shows that you did not bother to read the posts exchanged between Bishop Andre and me. Had you, you would have read that the OCCUS, of which Bishop Andre is a hierarch, does not ordain women, contrary to what is done in some other Old Catholic jurisdictions.
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Katholikos:
I don’t see where your hope lies, and why you would be pursuing unity with the very Church you rejected?
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The answer is clear in the Bishop’s post:
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Utrecht:
… with the same in mind, to examine what we hold in common and to work towards Christian unity.
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Your question is rudely phrased and shows lack of understanding ofthe status of Churches of the Catholic communion tha are separated from Rome. In response to a USCCB request, Rome examined and formally recognized the validity of sacraments, episcopal orders, and apostolic succession in the US-situated Polish National Catholic Church.

Rome took similar action as regards the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Union (I’m uncertain who initiated the request for this review), although future OCC-Utrecht Union validity will be in jeopardy if they are ordaining woman, as Bishop Andre has indicated. (The PNCC, although it classifies itself separately, is Old Catholic in origin, in that OC hierarchs were the principal source for its episcopal orders and succession.) That’s why Bishop Andre and his fellow bishops would have hope.

As to why he (or any other person) in any Church (or denomination) would be pursuing union with a Church that was rejected by his/its spiritual ancestors, isn’t that why this kind of forum and such entities as the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity exist - in the hope that such will happen???

Your closing request to be helped to understand was, I hope, sincere, because what preceded it was a put-off to believing that you do want to do so.

I think you owe Bishop Andre an apology.

Many years,

Neil
 
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Katholikos:
I see that a diagram would be needed to follow all the Old Catholic splinters.
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Jay,

There have been several schisms within the Old Catholic Church (as there have been within the Catholic Church). Additionally, there are many so-called “independent” Catholic Churches that espouse an origin in the Old Catholic Church, but have no real claim to it, other than that the names of one or more of the modern era progenitors of American Old Catholicism (e.g. Bishops Matthews, Vilatte, Carmora, Gul and Berghes) appears somewhere in their episcopal lineage.

Many years,

Neil
 
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Shibboleth:
You might find this interresting,

The Evangelical Catholic Church

members.aol.com/EvCathCh/index.HTML
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Shibboleth,

The Evangelical Catholic Church is indeed a very interesting Church. Bishop Karl (Barwin), their presiding hierarch, and I have had some e-mail correspondence on a couple of issues. He maintains friendly contacts with Catholic hierarchy in his geographic area and has an ongoing interest in the future of unity. The Church is very traditional and would be deemded very high church, even among other High-Church Lutherans.

Many years,

Neil
 
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Salmon:
When some busybody wants to know “what religion you are”, you can raise some eyebrows by responding, “First Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, Roman Synod.”

Peace in Christ…Salmon
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I like that. I’ll have to remember it for future use.:tiphat:
 
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