True Devotion to Mary - Confused?

[dizzy_dave]

I’m currently reading the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. Here is a quote I am confused on: "Our Lord (Jesus) is our Advocate and Mediator of redemption with God the Father. I always get the impression God the Father is the “Boss” of the Gods, I mean I was taught they were all equal (the 3 persons in the trinity) but it always seems like God the Father is always the main guy if you will. They are all equal are they not and why do a lot of writings make it “seem” like Jesus is lesser and a lot of the time the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned like he’s forgotten.:banghead:

 

[chimakuni]

dizzy_dave:

I’m currently reading the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. Here is a quote I am confused on: "Our Lord (Jesus) is our Advocate and Mediator of redemption with God the Father. I always get the impression God the Father is the “Boss” of the Gods, I mean I was taught they were all equal (the 3 persons in the trinity) but it always seems like God the Father is always the main guy if you will. They are all equal are they not and why do a lot of writings make it “seem” like Jesus is lesser and a lot of the time the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned like he’s forgotten.:banghead:

Dizzy_Dave…you are making me dizzy! The Trinity - The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are all one in being. There is no boss within the structure of the Trinity. The Trinity was always - there is no lesser…when Christ came to earth, He was shown to us humans but he was not ever not God when he was here…fully God and Fully Divine. The Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, as you know and He is with us even now as I write…but the Spirit is not lesser.

It is like tea…you put the tea in, the water in and the sugar (I like mine nice and sweet!) and you mingle them together. Not one is the boss of the tea - they are all co-mingled.

Hope that helps! God Bless -

 

[cestusdei]

I believe the term that describes this is attribution. All are equal, but we attribute things to one Person. For example all create, but usually we think of the Father as creator. It is how we tend to think as human beings as we try to grasp the concept of the Trinity.

 

[Racer_X]

Then why is that Jesus expresses that his mission is to do the Father’s will, not his own, as when he says, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work,” (John 4:34) or " I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30) or “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;” (John 6:38) and even reluctantly as in “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.”

I’m not sure what it means that they are equal, but it is clear that the Son defers to the Father. Hence the parent/child metaphor. Not only is one the begetter and one the begotten, but one is the sender and one is the sent. (Don’t balk at my use of the word “metaphor”. The relationship of the 1st and 2nd persons of the Trinity may be similar to the human family, but it is clearly not identical.)

 

[Hesychios]

dizzy_dave:

I’m currently reading the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. Here is a quote I am confused on: "Our Lord (Jesus) is our Advocate and Mediator of redemption with God the Father.:banghead:

It confuses me too, but that wouldn’t be the first thing Louis De Montfort wrote that confused me.

From the Catechism:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There are a lot of devotees of De Montfort on this board, and this book is recommended a lot, but it is not an ideal representation of Catholicism.

Why don’t you pick up The Lord by Romano Guardini? Very inspirational! It will build your faith.

If you want intellectual stimulation try reading Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. From it you can learn more about the Catholic world view.

You could read the Fathers of the Church too, yourself! Not distilled into some second-hand collection. Start with the Confessions of Saint Augustine or his City of God, then read Gregory of Nyssa, or John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Bernard of Clairveaux!

If you want to learn Catholic spirituality and mysticism you could read Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila.

How about How to Love God and keep his commandments by Quadrupini?

I am sorry, I have become carried away by this. The fact is all of these people had a deep devotion to Mary and an intense love of God and the True Faith. After you read this material you won’t need to read the True Devotion to Mary, you will already be living it…

 

[metal1633]

dizzy_dave:

I’m currently reading the book True Devotion to Mary by St. Louis Marie de Montfort. Here is a quote I am confused on: "Our Lord (Jesus) is our Advocate and Mediator of redemption with God the Father. I always get the impression God the Father is the “Boss” of the Gods, I mean I was taught they were all equal (the 3 persons in the trinity) but it always seems like God the Father is always the main guy if you will. They are all equal are they not and why do a lot of writings make it “seem” like Jesus is lesser and a lot of the time the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned like he’s forgotten.:banghead:

The Father is the Source of the Trinity. The Son is Begotten of the Father from all Eternity. The Holy Spirit proceeds.

 

[Antonio_B]

Hesychios:

It confuses me too, but that wouldn’t be the first thing Louis De Montfort wrote that confused me.

From the Catechism:

There are a lot of devotees of De Montfort on this board, and this book is recommended a lot, but it is not an ideal representation of Catholicism.

Why don’t you pick up The Lord by Romano Guardini? Very inspirational! It will build your faith.

If you want intellectual stimulation try reading Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. From it you can learn more about the Catholic world view.

You could read the Fathers of the Church too, yourself! Not distilled into some second-hand collection. Start with the Confessions of Saint Augustine or his City of God, then read Gregory of Nyssa, or John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Bernard of Clairveaux!

If you want to learn Catholic spirituality and mysticism you could read Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila.

How about How to Love God and keep his commandments by Quadrupini?

I am sorry, I have become carried away by this. The fact is all of these people had a deep devotion to Mary and an intense love of God and the True Faith. After you read this material you won’t need to read the True Devotion to Mary, you will already be living it…

I don’t think the problem es the book - True Devotion - by De Montfort - The reader has to be aware that the modern reader is reading something that was written in another culture and centuries ago. In that book one finds statements like “the slave of Mary.” By that is meant that a person is completely dedicated or consecrated to Mary, but our modern sensitivities do not react too well to the concept of slavery and rightly so. That does not mean the book should not be read for spiritual guidance. “The Imitation of Christ” was also written with statements that most modern Catholics would have problems with, yet I would recommend its reading.

Antonio

 

[Sonya]

The Holy Trinity is a family. Three in one is a great mystery but even St. Augustine, a Doctor of the our Church, was trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Our Lord, I believe appeared as a child to him on the beach, who was taking water out of the sea with a sea shell and pouring it into a hole in the sand. St. Augustine wondered why the child was doing this and asked. The child said that he was doing this to put the entire ocean in the hole. St. Augustine said that this was impossible. The child said that he would finish this task before he could understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. It is a true story.

The book True Devotion to Mary is an excellent book no matter who tells you otherwise, because to live this way is to live as close to Christ as one can get.

 

[agname]

See: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#237

 

[Hesychios]

Sonya:

The Holy Trinity is a family. Three in one is a great mystery but even St. Augustine, a Doctor of the our Church, was trying to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Our Lord, I believe appeared as a child to him on the beach, who was taking water out of the sea with a sea shell and pouring it into a hole in the sand. St. Augustine wondered why the child was doing this and asked. The child said that he was doing this to put the entire ocean in the hole. St. Augustine said that this was impossible. The child said that he would finish this task before he could understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. It is a true story.

I can agree with what you say here!

The book True Devotion to Mary is an excellent book no matter who tells you otherwise, because to live this way is to live as close to Christ as one can get.

I don’t know that the book actually says this, have you seen it?:

Our Lord (Jesus) is our Advocate and Mediator of redemption with God the Father.

If the book actually says this, and it is not an editorial mistake, would you say that this is orthodox Catholic theology?

Is Christ Jesus a mediator between us and God the Father or is he not?

Who will answer this question definatively?

 

[Hesychios]

Antonio B:

I don’t think the problem es the book - True Devotion - by De Montfort - The reader has to be aware that the modern reader is reading something that was written in another culture and centuries ago. In that book one finds statements like “the slave of Mary.” By that is meant that a person is completely dedicated or consecrated to Mary, but our modern sensitivities do not react too well to the concept of slavery and rightly so. That does not mean the book should not be read for spiritual guidance. “The Imitation of Christ” was also written with statements that most modern Catholics would have problems with, yet I would recommend its reading.

Antonio

I didn’t mention the language, but since you brought it up it is pretty horrid.

Muslims are slaves to God. We have a kind, loving father in God.

God is Love.

They are totally different ways of looking at the relationship.

By the way, the Imitation of Christ is a masterpiece, there is no comparison between the two books.

 

[Bill_597]

Racer X:

Then why is that Jesus expresses that his mission is to do the Father’s will, not his own, as when he says, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work,” (John 4:34) or " I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30) or “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;” (John 6:38) and even reluctantly as in “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.”

I’m not sure what it means that they are equal, but it is clear that the Son defers to the Father. Hence the parent/child metaphor. Not only is one the begetter and one the begotten, but one is the sender and one is the sent. (Don’t balk at my use of the word “metaphor”. The relationship of the 1st and 2nd persons of the Trinity may be similar to the human family, but it is clearly not identical.)

It is important to remember that although God is manifest in three persons of the Trinity, they all are one–one of the great mysteries of our faith. It is equally important, however, to remember that when Jesus spoke to the Father in the Garden of Gethsemane or in other instances, that Jesus was human. He came down to earth and was born of a virgin to be a man. Jesus of Nazareth was wholly God and wholly man while he was on this earth. Therefore, as a man it would be totally appropriate gor Jesus to talk with God the Father and “defer” things to Him.

 

[MariaG]

I believe the problem you are having is that you are not separating the divine nature of Jesus. Jesus while fully God, is also fully human. So it was the human nature of Jesus saying I come not to do my own will.

 

[Hesychios]

dizzy_dave:

They are all equal are they not and why do a lot of writings make it “seem” like Jesus is lesser and a lot of the time the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned like he’s forgotten.:banghead:

This is a very good point, but not merely a problem with De Montfort.

The Holy Spirit is definately overlooked.

I read somewhere that the cult of Mary had to a certain extent displaced devotion to the Holy Spirit. I cannot say for sure but the idea seems plausible.

If one counts the number of threads devoted to the Holy Spirit on this forum it is pretty clear that it is not the most popular topic.

 

[metal1633]

Hesychios:

This is a very good point, but not merely a problem with De Montfort.

The Holy Spirit is definately overlooked.

I read somewhere that the cult of Mary had to a certain extent displaced devotion to the Holy Spirit. I cannot say for sure but the idea seems plausible.

If one counts the number of threads devoted to the Holy Spirit on this forum it is pretty clear that it is not the most popular topic.

Joh 3:8 The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is somewhat of an Intangible to us.He speaks not of Himself but reveals to us the Son who in His turn shows us the Father. I can imaging those devoted to the Spirit to be quite mystical in their theoogical understandings.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Hesychios:

Is Christ Jesus a mediator between us and God the Father or is he not?
Who will answer this question definatively?

I think St. Paul answered it definitively when he said, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

 

[Sonya]

Hesychios, to imitate Christ is to honor Mary. By the 4th commandment we must honor our mom and dad and Christ did this so we must imitate Christ.

Jesus is the mediator to the Father, but Mary intercedes for us to the Son who honors His Mom like in the 4th commandment.

 

[asquared]

For best exposition of the relationship of Mary with the Holy Trinity, try Father Frederick Miller, his talk “The Father of the Mother of God” is awesome. Mary is the daughter of God the Father, Mary is the Mother of the Son, Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, whose power overshadowed her, with her full consent of the will, at the moment of the Incarnation.

The Holy Spirit is certainly a popular topic in the forums, try all the bickering threads about the charismatic movement.

 

[Hesychios]

Sonya:

Hesychios, to imitate Christ is to honor Mary. By the 4th commandment we must honor our mom and dad and Christ did this so we must imitate Christ.

I have no problem honoring Mary, thank you

But I think your reasoning needs a little tooling up. I might imitate all kinds of people in different ways for any reason. I might want to imitate St Louis De Montfort, but I don’t honor his mother because of it.

Some people think that because someone like me has a problem with De Montfort, that we don’t love and honor Mary, not so!

I would still honor Mary as the greatest of Saints, mother of the church, most effective intercessor and supreme example of a Christian woman, even if I thought De Montfort was a heretic!

After all, she is the Ark.

Jesus is the mediator to the Father, but Mary intercedes for us to the Son who honors His Mom like in the 4th commandment.

That’s pretty good. I understand the nature of intercessory prayer, but I had never thought of Jesus being a mediator to the Father since they are all equally one God, and Jesus is our judge, glorified. That is what makes me uncomfortable.

But if the church is OK with that terminology, I’m OK with it. If the church is not OK with it, I deserve to know! It is too serious a topic to leave to the musings of amateurs like us.

 

[stubiegirl]

The CCC states in article 2634, “He [Jesus] is the one intercesor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.” and there is a cross reference there to Romans 8:34 (“Is it Christ Jesus , who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who indeed intercedes for us?”) and to 1Jn2:1 (“My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”) and 1Tim 2:5-8 (“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling.”)

Jn 14:6 “Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

The Trinity is CERTAINLY a mystery. (definitely dizzying :whacky: ) So we aren’t going to understand it. Frank Sheed explains it pretty well in Theology for Beginners . A very good book.

God Bless in your pursuit for truth!

P.s. I beg to differ that there is no comparison between *The Imitation of Christ * and True Devotion . Our Holy Father said that *True Devotion * was the most influential book that he has ever read. (That carries a little weight in my book :tiphat: )