True or false faith/denomination/religion

[Hellisreal]

Hi
Everybody I have met, knowledgeable or un-knowledgable is confident, including myself, that his faith/denomination/religion even agnostics/atheist, is beyond doubt the most truthful. Those we know little they are most confident of the truthfulness of their faith. They won’t bear with the idea that someone else tries to show them another way which is as truthful or even more truthful . I have yet to see somebody who holds that his faith is false. How do you see this phenomenon?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

You dont see someone hold that their faith is false until they leave it.

Now, they can leave it in mind, spirit, or literally physically walk out of it. In some cases, run like mad from it.

There are so many variables and each person has different reasons for the changes they may make.

Some do it because they want to justify their own personal sinful desires and spit on the “oppressive” religion they were in that “prevented” them from doing so. Instead of admitting that, they try to Look for reasons their faith was “wrong” to give them an excuse to change.

Others realize they are in a bad or unhealthy or false religion through study and comparison along with prayer.

Some just dont care either way, they dont care if its right or wrong they just do it out of habit or some cultural or family reasons.

I dont know what the object of the thread here is?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi
Since you are a Catholic, so you must say as you have posted, yet a Protestant would say:
The “phenomenon” is quite simple and Christianity, Protestantism in particular, provides the answer. The answer is that there is only one Truth, and yet we live in a fallen world. As a result people are confused and misled all day long, and while they might be right on certain aspects of the Truth they dont have the full Truth.

But at this point they would have to stop and ask a few basic questions…like what are Protestants protesting? Would any Protestant denomination openly claim they can trace their history through the ages? As you continue down that trail we come to find Protestantism is in fact an offshoot of Catholicism and when they compare their beliefs to Scripture we see Catholicism indeed does fit the model.

You have two options, either you believe the Truth is relative, where “right” and “wrong” depend on the individual, or you believe there is one Truth. If you believe there is one Truth then your job is to track down the group who is holding that Truth. If the group you look into wont openly claim they hold the full Truth then you know not to look there.

A Buddhis would say
The “phenomenon” is quite simple and Buddhism, Mahayana in particular, provides the answer. The answer is that there is only one Truth, and yet we live in a fallen world. As a result people are confused and misled all day long, and while they might be right on certain aspects of the Truth they dont have the full Truth.

You must not understand what I am saying. When I say “fallen world” I am talking about how man has been wounded by sin and suffers the effects of the first sin of Adam.
To my knowledge no world religion except Christianity teaches man is a fallen creature.

So on and so forth. There is no religion which does not repeat what you have said.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

As I said above, NO other religion teaches what I just said.

Also, it is interesting you consider your self as “bridging gaps between faiths”…how exactly is this possible given that each faith preaches something different and even contradictory? The answer is that only one can be right and the rest only have a fraction of the Truth…you being Muslim must now stand up and admit you believe you hold the fullness of Truth.

After you do that then we can conclude that at least one of us must be wrong. From there we can look into the issues that divide us and see who presents the better case.

 

[rossum]

Islam denies Jesus as God. Very different.

That was not your initial question. You asked if Mohammed and Jesus agreed on their being “One God” and I answered yes, they do agree on that.

Muslims also accept Jesus gave life to a bird of clay, and that He denied ever claiming to be the Son of God.

That was not your initial question. You asked if Mohammed and Jesus agreed on the virgin birth, and I answered yes, they do agree on that.

It seems to me that you are trying to emphasise areas of disagreement at the expense of areas of agreement. It is true that there are areas of disagreement, but it is also true that there are areas of agreement between Jesus and Mohammed. You do not have to deny one in order to accept the other.

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Source: Nostra Aetate

rossum

 

[paarsurrey]

But at this point they would have to stop and ask a few basic questions…like what are Protestants protesting? Would any Protestant denomination openly claim they can trace their history through the ages? As you continue down that trail we come to find Protestantism is in fact an offshoot of Catholicism and when they compare their beliefs to Scripture we see Catholicism indeed does fit the model.

Hi
I am not a speaking on behalf of the Protestants, they would defend their faith themselves, but one thing is quite clear, if they had thought that the truth is with the Catholics, what need they had to protest.They must have seen some wrong in the Catholic.
Could you please show us that the Protestants confess that their faith is false? I don’t think they would ever say such thing. Similar for the Jehovas Witnesses.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Techno2000]

Both Jesus and Mohammed said many things. On some things they agreed, on other things they differed. If everything that one of them said is true then some of what the other said is true also. The same goes for pretty much any two religions you want to pick: “Love others as you love yourself” - The Buddha.

rossum

The Devil will tell you a thousand truths, just to slip in one Lie.

 

[kellie]

Hi
I think I never said that, please get yourself corrected.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Sorry, I did read wrong

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi
Those we know little they are most confident of the truthfulness of their faith. They won’t bear with the idea that someone else tries to show them another way which is as truthful or even more truthful . I have yet to see somebody who holds that his faith is false. How do you see this phenomenon?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Hi paarsurrey just starting this conversation fresh.

To be honest there are differences in Catholic and Protestant. But there is a single tie that does bind. That tie is Jesus Christ. On that there is no difference.

(So Im going to refer to BOTH groups as Christians as they follow Jesus to keep this simple.)

Now, Jesus said "I Am the Way, the Truth " you have to consider what He meant by that?

Did He know a truth, or understand truths, did He have a special insight to truth, had He seen soo much He had a good idea of what truth would be.

No, He IS the Truth, without Him there is no Truth. You cannot have Jesus here and Truth over there. They are one and the same.

*How be it when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all Truth John 16:13

Santify them through Thy Truth: Thy word is Truth John 17:17

Mercy and Truth are met together Ps 85:10*

Christ is the personification of the Word of God and the wisdom of God. His own claim is conclusive I AM the Truth. Other religions seek Truth, Christians have found it with Christ.

All Truth wherever it is found is from Jesus; there is no Truth without Him. So if a teacher states a truth it is from Christ. Now the teacher will not know the source of the truth. But that doesnt make it any less true just because they dont know the source.

 

[Verisimilitude]

That was not your initial question. You asked if Mohammed and Jesus agreed on their being “One God” and I answered yes, they do agree on that.

Ok, I’ll be more direct. The One God is not Allah. Allah is not another name for God but a god only. Islam says Christians believe in 3 gods- God, Jeuss & Mary.

That was not your initial question. You asked if Mohammed and Jesus agreed on the virgin birth, and I answered yes, they do agree on that.

A mistaken analogy to use here. Though, as above- it is not as much that they agreed on a fact as what they said and did that distinguishes them. The larger point is Mohamed associates himself to such things without justification. By acknowledging the Virgin Birth or the singularity of God, he soils the concept because all else is false. A few quotes here may seem trivial, but it is not.

It seems to me that you are trying to emphasise areas of disagreement at the expense of areas of agreement. It is true that there are areas of disagreement, but it is also true that there are areas of agreement between Jesus and Mohammed. You do not have to deny one in order to accept the other.

Yes, you do. If Christ is not G-d, my faith is nothing and false. To accept even the possibility that Islam has some new revealed Truth in it is to deny my faith in it’s entirety. This does not suggest the superficial similarities of their acknowledgement to what had come before is not recognized, but that the similarities do not support or provide the authority of Mohammed.

Islam may say the names David, and Moses, Solomon, Abraham, Adam, Jesus Christ and the Blessed Mother…this proves nothing substantive, and most Quranic references to all but Mary and Jesus are only the names. Saying them repeatedly does not convey authentic prophetic lineage.

What the patriarchs are recorded to say and do in the Koran are in complete opposition to the Catholic - and Jewish faith. If it is not revealed Truth, what kind of revelation is it?

 

[Verisimilitude]

rossum:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; … Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
​

Yes, I had a problem with that initially the first time I read it a number of years ago because I didn’t fully understand the complexity of the issue. I do now I think.

In short, Mohamed entered Mecca in triumph, smashing all the pagan idols at the Kabbaa including the one formally known of Allah and proclaimed before and after, the spirit that had at times visited and influenced him was an angel of God, and Mohammed was chosen to be his messenger to speak for God by the authority of this spirit. I accept a spirit visited Muhammad, but reject it was Gabriel or any other proper Authority.

Now, because Muhammad invoked authorities names to associate himself with the ancestors of the God of Abraham, and thus to God Himself, the people (Muslims) do acknowledge the One as your link identifies though they do so in the error and deception of Muhammad. So I can accept Moslems pray to the same God I pray to, but not G-d, because how they pray and acknowledge God is from the mouth/mind of a man influenced by evil.

Summary: I think Muhammad was visited by the same demon that tempted Christ in the desert 600 years earlier. This time he found a tool to use to pervert the Truth- Muhammad. I believe Muhammad was sincere in his initial quest for God, but was deceived and eventually came to believe in and for himself. His history about when and how these revelations come about are telling. Anyway, the position of the Catholic Church is a wise one. It does not embrace Islam like it is trying to do in that link to the Jews, but nor does it confront it’s falseness. I think She recognizes what Mohammed is and how the impact of Islam affects the Truth. It is the Church that is reaching out to show the similarities- few as they are-to give peace the best possible chance in that they, Moslems, will be brought to the Truth.

Allah is not God. Allah is what influenced Muhammed to do and say:

Then whoever disputes with you concerning him (Iesa (Jesus)) after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, (i.e. Iesa (Jesus)) being a slave of Allah, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad SAW) “Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allah upon those who lie.”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #61)

and

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)

Will Moslems listen to Christians in the same way?

Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Quran), then you would have against Allah neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #120)

The words of Allah are a contradiction to the Word become flesh. Only one can be right. The other has to be wrong. All things being equal, Islam will not accept equality.​

 

[rossum]

The Devil will tell you a thousand truths, just to slip in one Lie.

Which is why we must evaluate everything we are told very carefully.Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.

Source Kalama sutta

rossum

 

[rossum]

Ok, I’ll be more direct. The One God is not Allah. Allah is not another name for God but a god only.

Have you ever looked at an Arabic translation of the Bible? What word do you think is used to translate “God”? Yes, that’s right: “Allah”. Nostra Aetate said “They [Muslims] adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” I will take the word of Pope Paul VI over yours as to what the correct attitude of Catholics is towards Muslims and the God they worship.

Islam says Christians believe in 3 gods- God, Jeuss & Mary.

Islam says that Christanity is polytheistic because it worships three Gods: Father, Son and Spirit. You need to learn more about Islam before you criticise it.

rossum

 

[exoflare]

Islam says that Christanity is polytheistic because it worships three Gods: Father, Son and Spirit. You need to learn more about Islam before you criticise it.

rossum

Sorry, but Muslims really do believe that Christians regard Mary as a God. The poster you criticized may be ignorant on some aspects of Islam, but the point you just mentioned is not one of them.

 

[rossum]

Sorry, but Muslims really do believe that Christians regard Mary as a God. The poster you criticized may be ignorant on some aspects of Islam, but the point you just mentioned is not one of them.

“Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs”

(Qur’an 4:171)

 

[Verisimilitude]

“Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, ‘Trinity.’ Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs”

(Qur’an 4:171)

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah? " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #116)

 

[Verisimilitude]

Have you ever looked at an Arabic translation of the Bible? What word do you think is used to translate “God”? Yes, that’s right: “Allah”. Nostra Aetate said “They [Muslims] adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” I will take the word of Pope Paul VI over yours as to what the correct attitude of Catholics is towards Muslims and the God they worship.

Allah
It is a compound word from the article, 'al, and ilah, divinity, and signifies “the god” par excellence. This form of the divine name is in itself a sure proof that ilah was at one time an appellative, common to all the local and tribal gods. Gradually, with the addition of the article, it was restricted to one of them who took precedence of the others; finally, with the triumph of monotheism, He was recognized as the only true God.
newadvent.org/cathen/01316a.htm

Words and names mean things. Some mean more than others. Did the name of God evolve from a lower to the highest? Was it on purpose that allah was not mentioned by name by the Pope?

The term “Allah” comes from the Arabic “al-Lah”, that can be translated with “the god”. In pre-Islamic times, in the polytheistic religion of Mecca, there was a god that was called by this name. Al-Lah was probably considered as the highest god, but not an acting power, and therefore rarely focused on in rituals.
lexicorient.com/e.o/allah.htm

I could call you my blood brother and get others to believe it, but it wouldn’t make it true. When people started to refer to me as your brother, and you do not correct them, the things I do and say in the name of “our family” might bother you if the things I said and did put dishonor to our name.

Islam says that Christanity is polytheistic because it worships three Gods: Father, Son and Spirit. You need to learn more about Islam before you criticise it.

rossum

Most references in the Quran to polytheism and assocates to god is not directed at the Christian Trinity belief, but rather the personal family idols the Arabs retained for a while even after accepting Islam.

I have a fair understanding of Islam and Muhammad’s life. Maybe you should learn more before you defend it.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hi
I am not a speaking on behalf of the Protestants, they would defend their faith themselves, but one thing is quite clear, if they had thought that the truth is with the Catholics, what need they had to protest.They must have seen some wrong in the Catholic.
Could you please show us that the Protestants confess that their faith is false? I don’t think they would ever say such thing. Similar for the Jehovas Witnesses.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

No offense but here is where “bridging the gap between faiths” starts to fail. Unless we take this discussion BEYOND the “I wouldn’t be in my religion unless I thought it was right” level of thinking then we are going to be stuck on the surface level which, while appealing to the greatest common denominator, is not going to be constructive at the end of the day.

In short what you are stuck with is saying the Truth is relative because “right” and “wrong” ultimately depend on the individual.

I mentioned all this in post 22 and I think we could have some good conversation if you addressed the points I made there.

 

[exoflare]

And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah? " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my innerself though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the AllKnower of all that is hidden and unseen.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #116)

Yeah, that’s what came to my mind as well… thanks.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Yeah, that’s what came to my mind as well… thanks.

Im confuse here, I was told in the past the “correct” translation does not say Mary is a god, nor that they claimed Christians believed that in that passage…but it clearly appears that way.

I would like to get to the bottom of this, because if it is saying that we believe Mary was a god then that is utterly false.

 

[The_Truthinator]

Hi
Everybody I have met, knowledgeable or un-knowledgable is confident, including myself, that his faith/denomination/religion even agnostics/atheist, is beyond doubt the most truthful. Those we know little they are most confident of the truthfulness of their faith. They won’t bear with the idea that someone else tries to show them another way which is as truthful or even more truthful . I have yet to see somebody who holds that his faith is false. How do you see this phenomenon?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

I don’t understand why an atheist or agnostic (agnostics, of course, believing only in their own ignorance concerning the Divine) could bear any real confidence. Indeed, these sad religions to me should be the most doubted, as they are based on human wisdom! What’s more, many of their positions are defended so vehemently if for no other reason than this: They will to act against the moral law within them, to violate clear conscience, and to do this without justification is painful oftentimes. That is exactly why such deplorable churches were established—to justify immorality, not so much due to any scientific breakthrough! What nonsense …

MORE truthful …? An interesting phrase … A subtle lie embedded with realities is still a lie, nonetheless.

I see this as nothing more than depraved humans attempting to believe what they like in order to please themselves. I see it as the Spirit tugging on hearts that will not respond. It is blindness, deafness … No one wants to find what they have believed is false. It is hard to start afresh. I see this in light of religions like Atheism, Agnosticism, Scientology, Buddhism (a mere philosophy!), Mormonism, etc. I see it as sadness … Sadder still, this is most certainly not worthy of the dub “phenomenon” at all—nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Im confuse here, I was told in the past the “correct” translation does not say Mary is a god, nor that they claimed Christians believed that in that passage…but it clearly appears that way.

I would like to get to the bottom of this, because if it is saying that we believe Mary was a god then that is utterly false.

Over the life of the Messenger of god during his ministry, he said many contradictory things which are recorded in the Koran. Many scholars think the Book of Matthew was about the most widespread Gospel in Arabia in the time of Muhammed, and his first wifes unlce was a member of a christian sect (Ebonites I think) that did not believe in the divinty of Jesus. It was that uncle that married Muhammed and his first wife (quasi-christian wedding) as well as told him his first revelation was from god and that he was a prophet for the Arabian people.

Since he was illiterate he could not read the OT & NT stories for himself and his life is identified with those of mainly the Jewish faith used to taunt and riddicule him- some of whom he later assassinated- when he said such things that contradicted the earlier texts. He messed up who was married to whom, who Abraham was to sacrifice, and the life of Jesus to name a few. It seems clear that some of the Koranic stories about Christ are from Gnostic texts that were circulating at the time, that have since been rejected by the Church.

Islam mandates these inconsistancies as errors in the ealier texts, and corrected in the Quran. Ands since the Koran is the literal word of god, and Muhammed as the most trustworthy of humans, it cannot be wrong no matter how the facts support it’s falseness.