J
jimmy
Guest
Have a good night and God bless, it was great talking to you. I hope I did not affend you in any way because that was not my intent in any of my posts.
- Status
S
Sir_William
Guest
Originally Posted by twagler
Brandon,
I believe that God created THE church, consisting of ALL those who believe he is the Son of God.
This is something I have heard from many protestants who choose to deny Church authority. The reality is that the Church does include all believers. However, not all believers have authority to teach. Look at the Epistles, they were written by those in authority to keep the other believers on the right track. Even in New Testament times people in the various Churches were not free to interpret what they were taught according to their own ideas. If they did, they weren’t believers.
The Church has always been a heirarchical teaching body. This teaching body taught orally the revelations made manifest by the Word made flesh. These instructions were taught by those authorized by Christ (they eventually wrote down much of this oral instrucion in the Gospels). They supported this teaching when required by written word.
The sum of what they taught has been preserved by the Church (as it continued on its pilgrimage through time). What they wrote was copied, yet even what they didn’t was still taught. There is no conflict in any of this. It comprises a coherent message that the Church continues to preserve to this day.
This is not rocket science (yet it is so much more).
Really, you do damage to the Apocalypse when you say that John wasn’t talking about Sunday worship when he said he was in the spirit on the Lord’s day; and strain the text to imply that he was talking about events in the far distant future. Truly, he was talking about he himself being in the spirit on the Lord’s day (Sunday), and while in that state much was revealed to him. He was told to write it down. And much of what he described is the basis for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That’s what the experience was for him, a glipse of the Heavenly liturgy (which goes on all the time). The Holy Mass is where we, also ‘in the spirit’, get to participate in the Heavenly liturgy; as for a brief moment our souls are given a reprieve from our temporal bondage and we join with the Heavenly Hosts in their unending hymn of praise sing Holy Holy Holy… Truly through the power of God, Heaven reaches down and touches earth and for a few minutes, we are in sync with the one and only, all sufficient sacrifice of Christ in Heaven - still looking as a lamb unto the slaughter (ever wonder why?) and he reaches down to us and makes himself present on the altar of every Catholic (and Orthodox) Church every time Mass is celebrated. I realize that I have wandered a bit off here, but John’s Revelation was getting a little misrepresented on this thread.
Brandon,
I believe that God created THE church, consisting of ALL those who believe he is the Son of God.
This is something I have heard from many protestants who choose to deny Church authority. The reality is that the Church does include all believers. However, not all believers have authority to teach. Look at the Epistles, they were written by those in authority to keep the other believers on the right track. Even in New Testament times people in the various Churches were not free to interpret what they were taught according to their own ideas. If they did, they weren’t believers.
The Church has always been a heirarchical teaching body. This teaching body taught orally the revelations made manifest by the Word made flesh. These instructions were taught by those authorized by Christ (they eventually wrote down much of this oral instrucion in the Gospels). They supported this teaching when required by written word.
The sum of what they taught has been preserved by the Church (as it continued on its pilgrimage through time). What they wrote was copied, yet even what they didn’t was still taught. There is no conflict in any of this. It comprises a coherent message that the Church continues to preserve to this day.
This is not rocket science (yet it is so much more).
Really, you do damage to the Apocalypse when you say that John wasn’t talking about Sunday worship when he said he was in the spirit on the Lord’s day; and strain the text to imply that he was talking about events in the far distant future. Truly, he was talking about he himself being in the spirit on the Lord’s day (Sunday), and while in that state much was revealed to him. He was told to write it down. And much of what he described is the basis for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That’s what the experience was for him, a glipse of the Heavenly liturgy (which goes on all the time). The Holy Mass is where we, also ‘in the spirit’, get to participate in the Heavenly liturgy; as for a brief moment our souls are given a reprieve from our temporal bondage and we join with the Heavenly Hosts in their unending hymn of praise sing Holy Holy Holy… Truly through the power of God, Heaven reaches down and touches earth and for a few minutes, we are in sync with the one and only, all sufficient sacrifice of Christ in Heaven - still looking as a lamb unto the slaughter (ever wonder why?) and he reaches down to us and makes himself present on the altar of every Catholic (and Orthodox) Church every time Mass is celebrated. I realize that I have wandered a bit off here, but John’s Revelation was getting a little misrepresented on this thread.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
No…actually you have only shown that by your interpretation of the passages in question.
It seems fishy to me that all the rest of Christianity except for you and your teachers can follow the very clear and plain sense of the NT.
It is hair splitting to say that the Sunday meetings spoken of in the NT might not have been worship when in point of fact they were under persecution and would certainly have worshipped at every opportunity. Also because they were in a Jewish society and did not dare break the sabbath (because of the civil laws), they no doubt “observed” it in order to minimize their profile and avoid inciting further and greater persecution.
Same old, same old SDA rhetoric…
Pax vobiscum,
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Hey Twagler!
Go here…this site’ll answer ALL your questions!
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/adventism/aindex.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage23/20.gif
Pax vobiscum,
Go here…this site’ll answer ALL your questions!
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/adventism/aindex.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage23/20.gif
Pax vobiscum,
S
SDA2RC
Guest
But all those who believe he is the Son of God directly contradict each other. Mormons believe Christ is the Son of God, Lutherans, SDA’s, Catholics, etc. However, all these same religions directly contradict each other. Therefore if God created all of them as his church then he is the author of confusion, OR doctrine does not really matter.
Also, God created THE Church with bishops and deacons, and priest/elders. This was a visible church… not just some nebulous group that said… I believe. The church is the body. The body is not the Church!
twagler said:
Tell me…what commandments are these? The command to love one another? The command to not touch a woman who is menstrating? Or one of the other 613 commands that GOD GAVE the Jews? It seems to me that you are implying that his is speaking of the 10 commandments only, when the text does not support this!! You are inserting your own beliefs into the text. God tells us what his commands are and he is not talking about the Sabbath…
1 John 3
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, **because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. **24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
See, 1 John tells us that we are to obey his commands and then goes even further by telling is EXACTLY what he means by that! I pray that you will not continue to try to insert your legalistic view and the word “TEN” in every verse that speaks of commandments.
Also, we know this is true because the Church Christ Founded here on earth with Bishops to lead it is still here and is still the pillar and foundation of truth. We do not need to guess! God did not lie when he said that his church, which was a visible organized body, would not fail and the gates of hell would not prevail against it!
The verses above explain to us what the commandments of God are for the New Covenant Christian… an dcertainly, the fourth commandment is not included in 1 John! Again, you have had to try to commentary on the scripture above to try to force it to fit within your view. The verse does not say 10 commandments… that is your addition to scripture, your additional restraint you are placing on the word of God!
YES… and the Sabbatarians have done just that!! They have presumed to add to God’s word and add the Seventh-Day Sabbath law to the New Covenant Christians. In addition, many sabbatarians have even gone so far as to try to change the TIME that Christ rose from the dead from the First day of the week, as the Bible tells us, to some other day! See… Those who are proud and do not submit themselves to the will of God and the authority of God’s Holy Catholic church have tried to change the laws and times! But dont worry friend, through the sacrament of confession you can be reconciled to God’s Holy Catholic Church!
Brandon
T
twagler
Guest
Sigh,
Hmmm…I don’t see anything about murder in the NT. I guess I am free to kill since it is not EXPLICITLY stated. It seems to me that the church changed the law. Wasn’t it a crime to rest on the seventh day? Yes I think it was. Another law? Okay. Didn’t the church believe that you had to confess to a priest? AND I believe the Bible clearly states
“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.” (Matthew 23:9-10)
Now I am aware of the circular logic here (can’t call your dad father). But the fact that the Pope is known as “sweet Christ on Earth” qualifies him (I think) as a SECOND father and teacher.
Trav
Hmmm…I don’t see anything about murder in the NT. I guess I am free to kill since it is not EXPLICITLY stated. It seems to me that the church changed the law. Wasn’t it a crime to rest on the seventh day? Yes I think it was. Another law? Okay. Didn’t the church believe that you had to confess to a priest? AND I believe the Bible clearly states
“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.” (Matthew 23:9-10)
Now I am aware of the circular logic here (can’t call your dad father). But the fact that the Pope is known as “sweet Christ on Earth” qualifies him (I think) as a SECOND father and teacher.
Trav
T
twagler
Guest
Church Militant:
Alright here we go.
The sabbath was given, not to mankind in general, but to Israel alone as a special covenant sign between her and God (Ex. 31:13,17).
"The Sabbath was made for MAN, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2: 27-28).
The sabbath, though mentioned in Gen. 2:2-3, was not given to man until it was given to Israel in the wilderness (Neh. 9:13-14). It therefore did not apply to Abraham or the patriarchs or thse alive at that time.When Abraham offered sacrifices to God, there is no mention of the sabbath!!
"Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws" (Genesis 26:5). AND
**Many will argue that the Ten Commandments—including the fourth one about keeping the Sabbath holy—were just part of the “Old Covenant” that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai in the days of Moses. These people contend that, because the Old Covenant ended at Christ’s death, the Ten Commandments—with the Sabbath requirement—ended also.
But it was at the beginning of human history that God made the seventh-day Sabbath “holy time.” And about 2,000 years later, Abraham, the father of the faithful, set for us an EXAMPLE of faithfulness by keeping God’s commandments and statutes—obviously including the observance of the Sabbath day. Remember, this was still LONG BEFORE there was any Old Covenant with Israel!
Hundreds of years later, we find Abraham’s descendants being led out of Egyptian slavery by Moses in the Exodus. Several weeks before the Old Covenant was proposed at Mount Sinai, God wanted to remind His people of the true Sabbath, which He had given mankind at creation. In case any of them had forgotten or become mixed up about His Sabbath—which was possible since the Israelites had been in Egyptian slavery for several generations—God gave His people a series of signs to make clear to them which day He had made holy.
Now examine the account in Exodus 16:1-30. The people of Israel were “murmuring” against God because they wanted more food. So God said, ****“I will… TEST them, whether they will walk in My LAW or not” (v. 4). Interesting. Because this is more proof that God’s law was definitely in effect even BEFORE the giving of the Old Covenant at Mount Sinai! **
I am sure you know the rest of the manna story.
Errors of the Errors of Seventh Day Adventism,Hey Twagler!
Go here…this site’ll answer ALL your questions!
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/adventism/aindex.html
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage23/20.gif
Pax vobiscum,
Alright here we go.
The sabbath was given, not to mankind in general, but to Israel alone as a special covenant sign between her and God (Ex. 31:13,17).
"The Sabbath was made for MAN, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2: 27-28).
The sabbath, though mentioned in Gen. 2:2-3, was not given to man until it was given to Israel in the wilderness (Neh. 9:13-14). It therefore did not apply to Abraham or the patriarchs or thse alive at that time.When Abraham offered sacrifices to God, there is no mention of the sabbath!!
"Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws" (Genesis 26:5). AND
**Many will argue that the Ten Commandments—including the fourth one about keeping the Sabbath holy—were just part of the “Old Covenant” that God made with Israel at Mount Sinai in the days of Moses. These people contend that, because the Old Covenant ended at Christ’s death, the Ten Commandments—with the Sabbath requirement—ended also.
But it was at the beginning of human history that God made the seventh-day Sabbath “holy time.” And about 2,000 years later, Abraham, the father of the faithful, set for us an EXAMPLE of faithfulness by keeping God’s commandments and statutes—obviously including the observance of the Sabbath day. Remember, this was still LONG BEFORE there was any Old Covenant with Israel!
Hundreds of years later, we find Abraham’s descendants being led out of Egyptian slavery by Moses in the Exodus. Several weeks before the Old Covenant was proposed at Mount Sinai, God wanted to remind His people of the true Sabbath, which He had given mankind at creation. In case any of them had forgotten or become mixed up about His Sabbath—which was possible since the Israelites had been in Egyptian slavery for several generations—God gave His people a series of signs to make clear to them which day He had made holy.
Now examine the account in Exodus 16:1-30. The people of Israel were “murmuring” against God because they wanted more food. So God said, ****“I will… TEST them, whether they will walk in My LAW or not” (v. 4). Interesting. Because this is more proof that God’s law was definitely in effect even BEFORE the giving of the Old Covenant at Mount Sinai! **
I am sure you know the rest of the manna story.
T
twagler
Guest
**cont.
**1 Corinthians 16:1,2, Christians giving money for the collection on the first day of the week.
In 1 Corinthians 16:2, the Apostle Paul requested: “On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.” This is no endorsement at all of Sunday worship. Notice that the practice was meant to STOP when Paul came to Corinth! And notice that these verses say nothing about gathering for a weekly worship service to do this collection. This was not a collection of money, but of food to assist the poor in Jerusalem, suffering from drought and famine (cf. Romans 15:25-28). Until Paul’s arrival, each individual was asked to “store up” his contributions—surely in his home. Paul knew that the collection would be bulky enough that it would take several people to transport it to Jerusalem (v. 4)—not what one would expect if money were collected.
Acts 20:7 Paul preached to Christians at Troas whose practice was to meet to break bread on the first day of the week.
**The book of Acts recounts the development of doctrine and practice in the early Church. Yet the first day of the week is mentioned only once, in Acts 20:7-12. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread *, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (v. 7). This was a one-time farewell meeting and meal, not a regular worship service. And when we understand that by biblical reckoning days are from sunset to sunset, we can see that the before-midnight portion of “the first day” is actually on Saturday. This “first day” gathering was a Saturday evening event! And at sunrise Sunday morning, Paul began the hard work of a 20-mile hike (vv. 11-14)—not what one would expect if he considered Sunday his Sabbath day of rest!
***SDAs claim St. Paul kept the sabbath because he went to synagogues on sabbaths. This is faulty reasoning, however. It does not prove he consciously kept the sabbath law any more than his going to the feasts in Jerusalem proves he kept the laws governing feasts.
“**But,” some might argue, "Paul was just meeting with the Jews on Saturday since that was *their *Sabbath!" However, the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42). Here was Paul’s grand opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday! But did he? On the contrary! “The next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (v. 44).
The truth of the matter is that neither Paul nor ANY of the Apostles uttered one single word about changing God’s holy Sabbath or any part of the Ten Commandments. Rather, as they had been taught by Christ Himself, they kept, and always assembled on, the seventh day.
What about when Paul traveled through predominately Gentile areas? God’s Word tells us, “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (17:1-2).
It was clearly Paul’s “custom” to meet on the Sabbath. Acts 18:4 tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."
Romans 14:5,6** Paul, when discussing which day to meet, did not say that you must meet on the Saturday Sabbath, (as SDAs say),rather: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
**These verse is grossly out of context. Read around these verses and you will see what Paul is talking about.
**
**1 Corinthians 16:1,2, Christians giving money for the collection on the first day of the week.
In 1 Corinthians 16:2, the Apostle Paul requested: “On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.” This is no endorsement at all of Sunday worship. Notice that the practice was meant to STOP when Paul came to Corinth! And notice that these verses say nothing about gathering for a weekly worship service to do this collection. This was not a collection of money, but of food to assist the poor in Jerusalem, suffering from drought and famine (cf. Romans 15:25-28). Until Paul’s arrival, each individual was asked to “store up” his contributions—surely in his home. Paul knew that the collection would be bulky enough that it would take several people to transport it to Jerusalem (v. 4)—not what one would expect if money were collected.
Acts 20:7 Paul preached to Christians at Troas whose practice was to meet to break bread on the first day of the week.
**The book of Acts recounts the development of doctrine and practice in the early Church. Yet the first day of the week is mentioned only once, in Acts 20:7-12. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread *, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (v. 7). This was a one-time farewell meeting and meal, not a regular worship service. And when we understand that by biblical reckoning days are from sunset to sunset, we can see that the before-midnight portion of “the first day” is actually on Saturday. This “first day” gathering was a Saturday evening event! And at sunrise Sunday morning, Paul began the hard work of a 20-mile hike (vv. 11-14)—not what one would expect if he considered Sunday his Sabbath day of rest!
***SDAs claim St. Paul kept the sabbath because he went to synagogues on sabbaths. This is faulty reasoning, however. It does not prove he consciously kept the sabbath law any more than his going to the feasts in Jerusalem proves he kept the laws governing feasts.
“**But,” some might argue, "Paul was just meeting with the Jews on Saturday since that was *their *Sabbath!" However, the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42). Here was Paul’s grand opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday! But did he? On the contrary! “The next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (v. 44).
The truth of the matter is that neither Paul nor ANY of the Apostles uttered one single word about changing God’s holy Sabbath or any part of the Ten Commandments. Rather, as they had been taught by Christ Himself, they kept, and always assembled on, the seventh day.
What about when Paul traveled through predominately Gentile areas? God’s Word tells us, “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (17:1-2).
It was clearly Paul’s “custom” to meet on the Sabbath. Acts 18:4 tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."
Romans 14:5,6** Paul, when discussing which day to meet, did not say that you must meet on the Saturday Sabbath, (as SDAs say),rather: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
**These verse is grossly out of context. Read around these verses and you will see what Paul is talking about.
**
T
twagler
Guest
**cont.
**1 Corinthians 16:1,2, Christians giving money for the collection on the first day of the week.
In 1 Corinthians 16:2, the Apostle Paul requested: “On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.” This is no endorsement at all of Sunday worship. Notice that the practice was meant to STOP when Paul came to Corinth! And notice that these verses say nothing about gathering for a weekly worship service to do this collection. This was not a collection of money, but of food to assist the poor in Jerusalem, suffering from drought and famine (cf. Romans 15:25-28). Until Paul’s arrival, each individual was asked to “store up” his contributions—surely in his home. Paul knew that the collection would be bulky enough that it would take several people to transport it to Jerusalem (v. 4)—not what one would expect if money were collected.
Acts 20:7 Paul preached to Christians at Troas whose practice was to meet to break bread on the first day of the week.
**The book of Acts recounts the development of doctrine and practice in the early Church. Yet the first day of the week is mentioned only once, in Acts 20:7-12. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread *, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (v. 7). This was a one-time farewell meeting and meal, not a regular worship service. And when we understand that by biblical reckoning days are from sunset to sunset, we can see that the before-midnight portion of “the first day” is actually on Saturday. This “first day” gathering was a Saturday evening event! And at sunrise Sunday morning, Paul began the hard work of a 20-mile hike (vv. 11-14)—not what one would expect if he considered Sunday his Sabbath day of rest!
***SDAs claim St. Paul kept the sabbath because he went to synagogues on sabbaths. This is faulty reasoning, however. It does not prove he consciously kept the sabbath law any more than his going to the feasts in Jerusalem proves he kept the laws governing feasts.
“**But,” some might argue, "Paul was just meeting with the Jews on Saturday since that was *their *Sabbath!" However, the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42). Here was Paul’s grand opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday! But did he? On the contrary! “The next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (v. 44).
The truth of the matter is that neither Paul nor ANY of the Apostles uttered one single word about changing God’s holy Sabbath or any part of the Ten Commandments. Rather, as they had been taught by Christ Himself, they kept, and always assembled on, the seventh day.
What about when Paul traveled through predominately Gentile areas? God’s Word tells us, “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (17:1-2).
It was clearly Paul’s “custom” to meet on the Sabbath. Acts 18:4 tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."
Romans 14:5,6** Paul, when discussing which day to meet, did not say that you must meet on the Saturday Sabbath, (as SDAs say),rather: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
**These verses are grossly out of context. Read around these verses and you will see what Paul is talking about.
**
**1 Corinthians 16:1,2, Christians giving money for the collection on the first day of the week.
In 1 Corinthians 16:2, the Apostle Paul requested: “On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.” This is no endorsement at all of Sunday worship. Notice that the practice was meant to STOP when Paul came to Corinth! And notice that these verses say nothing about gathering for a weekly worship service to do this collection. This was not a collection of money, but of food to assist the poor in Jerusalem, suffering from drought and famine (cf. Romans 15:25-28). Until Paul’s arrival, each individual was asked to “store up” his contributions—surely in his home. Paul knew that the collection would be bulky enough that it would take several people to transport it to Jerusalem (v. 4)—not what one would expect if money were collected.
Acts 20:7 Paul preached to Christians at Troas whose practice was to meet to break bread on the first day of the week.
**The book of Acts recounts the development of doctrine and practice in the early Church. Yet the first day of the week is mentioned only once, in Acts 20:7-12. “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread *, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight” (v. 7). This was a one-time farewell meeting and meal, not a regular worship service. And when we understand that by biblical reckoning days are from sunset to sunset, we can see that the before-midnight portion of “the first day” is actually on Saturday. This “first day” gathering was a Saturday evening event! And at sunrise Sunday morning, Paul began the hard work of a 20-mile hike (vv. 11-14)—not what one would expect if he considered Sunday his Sabbath day of rest!
***SDAs claim St. Paul kept the sabbath because he went to synagogues on sabbaths. This is faulty reasoning, however. It does not prove he consciously kept the sabbath law any more than his going to the feasts in Jerusalem proves he kept the laws governing feasts.
“**But,” some might argue, "Paul was just meeting with the Jews on Saturday since that was *their *Sabbath!" However, the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42). Here was Paul’s grand opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday! But did he? On the contrary! “The next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (v. 44).
The truth of the matter is that neither Paul nor ANY of the Apostles uttered one single word about changing God’s holy Sabbath or any part of the Ten Commandments. Rather, as they had been taught by Christ Himself, they kept, and always assembled on, the seventh day.
What about when Paul traveled through predominately Gentile areas? God’s Word tells us, “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures” (17:1-2).
It was clearly Paul’s “custom” to meet on the Sabbath. Acts 18:4 tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."
Romans 14:5,6** Paul, when discussing which day to meet, did not say that you must meet on the Saturday Sabbath, (as SDAs say),rather: “Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
**These verses are grossly out of context. Read around these verses and you will see what Paul is talking about.
**
T
twagler
Guest
**cont.
** SDAs claim that the Catholic Church after Constantine in 320 AD changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
This is true, kind of. Constantine** simply made it a law.
**“Let all judges and townspeople and occupations of all trades rest on the venerable day of the Sun [Sunday]; nevertheless, let those who are situated in the rural districts freely and with full liberty attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it so frequently happens that no other day may be so fitting for ploughing grains or trenching vineyards, lest at the time the advantage of the moment granted by the provision of heaven may be lost. Given on the Nones [seventh] of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls, each of them, for the second time.”–The Code of Justinian, Book 3, title 12, law 3.
**As for the “fathers” who say Sunday practice was everywhere…I’d say (I do not know) that they were all from Rome or Alexandria. Why?
**Here is what the church historian, Socrates, who died in A.D. 440, wrote nearly a hundred years after Constantine’s Sunday Law Decree was issued:
“Although almost all churches through the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”–Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Books, chapter 22.
People cannot “cease” to do what they have never done, and so we can know that even at Rome and Alexandria the Bible Sabbath was once kept in earlier centuries.
But, at the same time, we see that 400 years after the death of Christ, and 100 years after Constantine’s linking of Church and State by his Sunday law edict,–Rome and Alexandria were the only places in the world where many of the Christians kept only Sunday, and not the Bible Sabbath.
**Some final thoughts…
**'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And IN VAIN they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’" (Mark 7:6-7). Think about that! Jesus clearly stated that it is possible to worship God—and yet worship Him IN VAIN by following the teachings of men! Then Jesus said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition” (v. 9).
The Apostle John stated, near the very end of his life, that “he who says he abides in [Christ] ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6).
Jesus said, “I have KEPT My Father’s commandments” (John 15:10).
Furthermore, at the very beginning of His ministry, Jesus set the standard for what would be His lifelong example: “So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His CUSTOM was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” (Luke 4:16). Again, in Luke 13:10, we read, “Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.”
This site was, ironically, full of errors. I do not claim to be SDA, but I do know that they do not consider the Pope to be the beast. They believe the Roman Empire is the beast. And they believe that the image created by the “little horn” is the CC. Does the CC resemble the Roman Empire in any way(s)? I am really not that concerned with who is and who isn’t the beast, but I do believe the whore is the coming “one world religion.”
I realize this was long, but there were a lot mistakes that needed correcting. Thank you for reading.
Trav
** SDAs claim that the Catholic Church after Constantine in 320 AD changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
This is true, kind of. Constantine** simply made it a law.
**“Let all judges and townspeople and occupations of all trades rest on the venerable day of the Sun [Sunday]; nevertheless, let those who are situated in the rural districts freely and with full liberty attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it so frequently happens that no other day may be so fitting for ploughing grains or trenching vineyards, lest at the time the advantage of the moment granted by the provision of heaven may be lost. Given on the Nones [seventh] of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls, each of them, for the second time.”–The Code of Justinian, Book 3, title 12, law 3.
**As for the “fathers” who say Sunday practice was everywhere…I’d say (I do not know) that they were all from Rome or Alexandria. Why?
**Here is what the church historian, Socrates, who died in A.D. 440, wrote nearly a hundred years after Constantine’s Sunday Law Decree was issued:
“Although almost all churches through the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”–Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Books, chapter 22.
People cannot “cease” to do what they have never done, and so we can know that even at Rome and Alexandria the Bible Sabbath was once kept in earlier centuries.
But, at the same time, we see that 400 years after the death of Christ, and 100 years after Constantine’s linking of Church and State by his Sunday law edict,–Rome and Alexandria were the only places in the world where many of the Christians kept only Sunday, and not the Bible Sabbath.
**Some final thoughts…
**'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And IN VAIN they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’" (Mark 7:6-7). Think about that! Jesus clearly stated that it is possible to worship God—and yet worship Him IN VAIN by following the teachings of men! Then Jesus said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition” (v. 9).
The Apostle John stated, near the very end of his life, that “he who says he abides in [Christ] ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6).
Jesus said, “I have KEPT My Father’s commandments” (John 15:10).
Furthermore, at the very beginning of His ministry, Jesus set the standard for what would be His lifelong example: “So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His CUSTOM was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” (Luke 4:16). Again, in Luke 13:10, we read, “Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.”
This site was, ironically, full of errors. I do not claim to be SDA, but I do know that they do not consider the Pope to be the beast. They believe the Roman Empire is the beast. And they believe that the image created by the “little horn” is the CC. Does the CC resemble the Roman Empire in any way(s)? I am really not that concerned with who is and who isn’t the beast, but I do believe the whore is the coming “one world religion.”
I realize this was long, but there were a lot mistakes that needed correcting. Thank you for reading.
Trav
T
twagler
Guest
One more thing…why do you insist on referring to scripture that supports Sunday worship?
Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900
“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and… can be defended only on Catholic principles… From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”
Stephen Keenan, A Doctinal Catechism, p. 174:
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no scriptural authority…
"Question: When Protestants do profane work upon Saturday… do they follow the Scripture as their only rule of faith…?
"Answer: On the contrary, they have only the authority of tradition for this practice. In profaning Saturday, they violate one of God’s commandments, which He has never clearly abrogated, ‘Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath.’"
Trav
Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900
“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and… can be defended only on Catholic principles… From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”
Stephen Keenan, A Doctinal Catechism, p. 174:
"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no scriptural authority…
"Question: When Protestants do profane work upon Saturday… do they follow the Scripture as their only rule of faith…?
"Answer: On the contrary, they have only the authority of tradition for this practice. In profaning Saturday, they violate one of God’s commandments, which He has never clearly abrogated, ‘Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath.’"
Code:
I suggest you stick to the "had she not such power...." argument, as it is extremely convincing. There are hundreds of such comments (by Catholic "officials") which clearly say that the Bible does not mention Sunday worship.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
Oh to have the time to correct all you said… LOL One thing I do want to note… the SDA’s DO believe that the office of the papacy is the fulfillment of the beast and anti-christ.
For example, the book Questions on Doctrine, published for the GC by an appointed author says this: "
Seventh-day Adventists believe that the prophecies of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, relating to the beast, refer particularly to the Papacy, and that the activities and future persecuting power will come into sharp focus just before the return of our Lord in glory. It is our understanding that the Sabbath will then become a worldwide test."
You may want to avoid commenting on other religions?
Brandon
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Funny…I been Catholic all my life and I’ve never heard the pope called such a lame title. this muct be another of your SDA inventions…
Also you choose to ignore and twist all the passages that are clear in the NT that show that the early church in the NT changed the day of worship and the only reason that you can remotely and justifiably hang it on Catholics is that the early church was indeed Catholic.
Discussion of this with such as you is mostly just a waste of time.
J
jimmy
Guest
You are going to have to give the exact place where you found that title for the pope. If it is not found in a Catholic document then it is slander that you are repeating. I have never heard the term in all my 23 years as a Catholic.
J
jimmy
Guest
The problem with this is that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not founded on the bible, in fact the bible is founded upon the teachings of the Catholic Church. So, if something is not mentioned in the NT it does not affect that it is still the teaching of “the One, True, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. Murder has been wrong since the institution of the Church, not because the bible said so - since the bible did not exist and the books had not been written yet that would be impossible - but because that is the commandment of Christ and the teaching the apostles gave, just like all other Catholic doctrines.
The bible does not have authority over the Church. It is the Curch that wrote the bible and it is the Church that canonized the bible and it is the Church that kept the bible alive.
S
SDA2RC
Guest
I looked it up online… it appears that our friend Trav lifted this from the Vita Consecrata letter from Pope John Paul II… in this document he makes reference to the fact that St. Catherine of Sienna at some time referred to the Pope with that Title… Here is the paragraph it is contained in:
In founders and foundresses , which they manifest by their full participation in all aspects of the Church’s life and in their ready obedience to the Bishops and especially to the Roman Pontiff. Against this background of love toward Holy Church (1 Tm. 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of St. Francis of Assisi for “the Lord Pope,”[97] the daughterly outspokenness of St. Catherine of Siena toward the one whom she called “sweet Christ on earth,”[98] the apostolic obedience and the of St. Ignatius Loyola[99] and the joyful profession of faith made by St. Teresa of Avila: “I am a daughter of the Church.”[100] We can also understand the deep desire of St. Theresa of the Child Jesus: “In the heart of the Church, my mother, I will be love.”[101] These testimonies are representative of the full ecclesial communion which the Saints, founders and foundresses have shared in diverse and often difficult times and circumstances. They are examples which consecrated persons need constantly to recall if they are to resist the particularly strong centrifugal and disruptive forces at work today.
Apparently our friend is really reaching deep to try to come up with slander today.
St. Teresa claimed to be a daughter of the Church. Trav, do you believe this means that St. Teresa was actually conceived and born by a Cathedral or Church somewhere? Or do you admit that this may be flowry language to describe a concept of love?
Just curious…
Brandon
S
SDA2RC
Guest
AMEN!!! Well Said!
brandon
D
DBRANDT
Guest
The confusion lies in a simple misunderstanding of the Hebrew reckoning of time. There are a number of descriptions of the time of Jesus’ resurrection in the NT – “on,” “after,” etc. The authors were not, however, confused, nor do the Scriptures contradict each other. Simply put, Jesus’ crucifixion was understood to have occurred on Day One, just as a child’s birth is considered to have taken place on Day One. “On the third day” or similar language, in Hebrew reckoning, refers to the same day as “after the third day.” In Judaism, they are one and the same day; there are merely differing forms of expression. If Jesus, therefore, was crucified on a Friday (Day One) and laid in the tomb on the Sabbath (Day Two), then he resurrected on Sunday, or “the first day” (Day Three). This is Hebrew reckoning. We get hung up with the “after” bit and use that expression literally, when the Jews themselves did not…P.S. I have NO criticisms of my brother and sister SDA’s…I used to be one but came back to the Catholic Church. I love ALL my brothers and sister in Christ and credit all of you with pure motives of loving and knowing Christ…May God Bless…
T
twagler
Guest
Here are 5 documents.
www.biblelight.net/sweet_christonearth.htm
The CC compiled the OT?
Dbrandt–what does John 19:14 mean? Was Passover on a Saturday?
www.biblelight.net/sweet_christonearth.htm
The CC compiled the OT?
Dbrandt–what does John 19:14 mean? Was Passover on a Saturday?
A
Ann_Cheryl
Guest
OW! five documents all quoting the same thing. To quote SDA2RC
looked it up online… it appears that our friend Trav lifted this from the Vita Consecrata letter from Pope John Paul II… in this document he makes reference to the fact that St. Catherine of Sienna at some time referred to the Pope with that Title…
What do you mean compiled? If you mean, 2 : to collect and edit into a volume then yes.
There are many good points that you refuse to acknowledge.
For instance:
Church MilitantQuote:
Originally Posted by twagler
*Jimmy,
I have already shown that Christ did not rise on the first day of the week.
Trav*
No…actually you have only shown that by your interpretation of the passages in question.
It seems fishy to me that all the rest of Christianity except for you and your teachers can follow the very clear and plain sense of the NT.
It is hair splitting to say that the Sunday meetings spoken of in the NT might not have been worship when in point of fact they were under persecution and would certainly have worshipped at every opportunity. Also because they were in a Jewish society and did not dare break the sabbath (because of the civil laws), they no doubt “observed” it in order to minimize their profile and avoid inciting further and greater persecution.
Same old, same old SDA rhetoric…
Pax vobiscum,AndSir_WilliamOriginally Posted by twagler
Brandon,
I believe that God created THE church, consisting of ALL those who believe he is the Son of God.
This is something I have heard from many protestants who choose to deny Church authority. The reality is that the Church does include all believers. However, not all believers have authority to teach. Look at the Epistles, they were written by those in authority to keep the other believers on the right track. Even in New Testament times people in the various Churches were not free to interpret what they were taught according to their own ideas. If they did, they weren’t believers.
The Church has always been a heirarchical teaching body. This teaching body taught orally the revelations made manifest by the Word made flesh. These instructions were taught by those authorized by Christ (they eventually wrote down much of this oral instrucion in the Gospels). They supported this teaching when required by written word.
The sum of what they taught has been preserved by the Church (as it continued on its pilgrimage through time). What they wrote was copied, yet even what they didn’t was still taught. There is no conflict in any of this. It comprises a coherent message that the Church continues to preserve to this day.
This is not rocket science (yet it is so much more).
Really, you do damage to the Apocalypse when you say that John wasn’t talking about Sunday worship when he said he was in the spirit on the Lord’s day; and strain the text to imply that he was talking about events in the far distant future. Truly, he was talking about he himself being in the spirit on the Lord’s day (Sunday), and while in that state much was revealed to him. He was told to write it down. And much of what he described is the basis for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That’s what the experience was for him, a glipse of the Heavenly liturgy (which goes on all the time). The Holy Mass is where we, also ‘in the spirit’, get to participate in the Heavenly liturgy; as for a brief moment our souls are given a reprieve from our temporal bondage and we join with the Heavenly Hosts in their unending hymn of praise sing Holy Holy Holy… Truly through the power of God, Heaven reaches down and touches earth and for a few minutes, we are in sync with the one and only, all sufficient sacrifice of Christ in Heaven - still looking as a lamb unto the slaughter (ever wonder why?) and he reaches down to us and makes himself present on the altar of every Catholic (and Orthodox) Church every time Mass is celebrated. I realize that I have wandered a bit off here, but John’s Revelation was getting a little misrepresented on this thread.
- Status