True Sabbath Day

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Hi,
I noticed most of the arguments regarding the switch from Saturday to Sunday centered on the resurrection of Christ, which is supposedly the first day, or Sunday. But is it? Matthew 12:40 clearly states that Jesus would be in the Earth for 3 days AND 3 nights. Friday to Sunday is not 72 hours, and I will not accept the partial day explanation. Matt 12:40 did not say part of… There were two sabbath days that week, one was a high holy day. For proof check out: www.tomorrowsworld.org go to the booklets section and click on “True Christian Sabbath Day.” Also, I find it strange that the sabbath was transferred to SUN-day. AND, what is with Pope Alexander VI and his bull establishing the Intenational Dateline? Could it be another attempt to mess up true sabbath keepers? I realize that I may be blind, but I would really appreciate a valid answer to the sabbath question. (not resurrection related, and not “that was the tradition of the church in the New Testament,” because it wasn’t). And if you strongly believe that this was the tradition, please provide scripture (not out of context please). Thank you for your time.

Travis
 
Hi Travis!
I realize that you come from one of the most anti-Catholic denominations around, so, although I will provide some answers to your questions, I ask that you be careful not to make insulting remarks or base any of your posts on things that you may have picked up in the books America in Prophecy, or The Great Controversy. (Both being the same book under different titles) I’ve read it all and the margins were lined with red ink as I made notes of the Biblical and historical inaccuracies that the author propunded.

Please also take a second and review the forum rules before you go on since you agreed to them when you joined us here. Particularly note rules 4 & 5 of the rules of conduct, because if you violate them someone will report you and you will be suspended. okay?

As to your sabbath question: (My best friend is SDA, so we talk). Here is a scripture that clearly says that Christ rose on the first day of the week. You can go back to the beginning of this chapter and will readily see that Mark says that all this occurred on the first day of the week.

Mark 16:9 “But he rising early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalen, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

The Christian church ceased to meet in the temple and met on the first day of the week (Sunday) early on in it’s existence in part due to the rejection by the Jews and their persecution, as well in honor of the resurrection. The Bible clearly states that Jesus rose on the first day of the week and Acts of the Apostles as well as Corinthians also shows that the NT church met on Sunday. SDA teaching notwithstanding…
Pax vobsicum,
 
twagler:
I noticed most of the arguments regarding the switch from Saturday to Sunday centered on the resurrection of Christ, which is supposedly the first day, or Sunday. But is it? Matthew 12:40 clearly states that Jesus would be in the Earth for 3 days AND 3 nights. Friday to Sunday is not 72 hours, and I will not accept the partial day explanation.
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Have you guys thrown out the book of Esther from the Old Testament yet? If not, you may want to familiarize yourself with it.

Esther 4:15-15
15 Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: 16 “Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.”
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Sounds clear enough, but is followed by Esther 5:1
1 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king’s hall.
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Oops. What happened to the third night? The truth of the matter is that the Hebrew usage embraces an ambiguity.

Why do you insist that scripture is wrong? Matt 16:21 :
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21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
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He was raised on the third day…not after the third night. Scripture is quite clear on this point.

To emphasize the clarity, the point is repeated in Matt 17:23:
22When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. 23They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.
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He was raised on the third day…not after the third night.

Just to make sure that NOBODY could possibly misunderstand, Matthew repeats it again in Matt 20:19 :
18“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
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In order to come to some misunderstanding of what Matthew was saying, one would have to ignore a great deal of scripture.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
Good evening,

If you would like to understand the Roman Catholic Church’s position on the Sabbath day please keep in mind the following:
  1. The Catholic Church does not condemn the proper veneration of the seventh-day Sabbath as a memorial of creation and as a day blessed and hallowed by God. Many Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox Christians) pay a special reverence to the Sabbath, referring to Sabbath and the Lord’s day as “brother days”, celebrating their liturgies on both days and delving into the rich and awesome theology of both days. The pope’s recent encyclical “Dies Domini” as well as the Catechism both include beautiful expositions of the meaning of the Sabbath day, and the former implicitly embraces the many Catholics who traditionally venerate of the seventh day. My study of the ancient Church and the New Testament assures me that this was very likely the apostolic practice… as you are right in claiming. Before I enter into a discussion of the Church’s position on the Lord’s day, remember that the seventh-day is a valuable (yet often forgotten) treasure of the Catholic tradition. Thank you for calling attention to it, and I pray that you would discover that embracing Catholicism is embracing all the beauty of the Bible. 🙂
  2. Catholic Christianity has, however, unilaterally opposed major perversions of the spirit of the Sabbath commandment, especially as defined by the rabbinical/Pharasaic Judaism of Christ’s day (and sadly often leaving a legacy of confusion on the subject). In union with Jesus, we oppose any who would make feast days a burden by exacting rules founded upon men’s traditions, or in binding others to keeping Old Covenant strictures that were temporal. Paul states that the Christian is not to be judged in matters pertaining to his personal observance of the Sabbath or any other feast day (Col. 2:15), implicitly suggesting the legitmacy of its celebration, but condemning the legalistic heresies spreading in Colossae. The early church fathers (1 & 2 century) likewise repeatedly called Christians away from observing the Sabbath in a “judaizing” manner, that is, in a legalistic manner, as did later church councils (Laodecia, Nicaea II).
The Sabbath commandment is not an end in and of itself. Christ declared that “the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Matthew 12). In other words, the Sabbath was established to serve man, fit his needs, and minister to him. As a Seventh-day Adventist I often saw the Sabbath commandment as a rule (however welcome) that I had to conform to (even sacrificially). On the contrary, Christ’s example in Matthew 12 however, reveals God’s true intent for the Sabbath: it is to be a day that coforms to us (!): addresing our needs and our circumstances, respecting our limitations. And yet it brings untold and awesome riches to those who faithfully guard this precept as in it, setting aside sacred time for God, resting in Him, meditating on all He is, and all He has done… blessing His Name in worship together. I would urge you to study the New Testament again, and read the early Christian tradition afterwards. Perhaps you, as I, have often lost sight of God’s true intention in establishing the Sabbath rest.
 
As for Sunday: 🙂
  1. The Catholic Church has always embraced the true meaning and spirit of the third (or fourth) commandment: In Exodus 20:11 (and Ex. 31:17), the meaning of the Sabbath is found in God’s creative act. It calls us back to the original creation, and thus, to God’s divine majesty and worship. In Deueteronomy 5:15, the commandment also commemorates God’s redemptive act in delivering the Israelites from the bondage of slavery. The seventh-day had meaning ONLY in that it was tied to these events, which God especially wanted the Israelites to “remember”. Thus, God prepared the sabbath day for the Jews to observe, and made it holy, symbolically representing their santification as well (Ex. 31:13).
Now one may ask, why have Christians observed the first day of the week as the Lord’s day, with even greater fervor than the seventh-day Sabbath? Think about it… The Lord’s day (as the first day of the week has been referred to since at least the dawn of the second century) expresses to a supernal degree the ultimate meaning of the Sabbath.

By His Resurrection on a Sunday, Christ (the New Adam) inaugurated a new creation… the dead are raised, men’s hearts were transformed, life and light and love are shining in their brilliance… the scriptures are clear on this teaching. More glorious than the creation of the original earth is the new creation that I am in the Risen Christ. This is especially true because of the Holy Spirit’s presence in my life, whose presence was first poured out upon the Church on Pentecost, also a Sunday (more on the traditional chronology versus the recent reinterpretation which you speak of (Wednesday-Saturday) in another post… I will say this, I believe the evidence is on the side of the traditional chronology).

Likewise, through the Resurrection Christ delivered us from the power of sin and death, arising in eternal glory. Christians commemorate their ultimate deliverance from the greatest enemies of all. Again, on Pentecost, the Church recieved the Spirit who is all our victory and power from Satan’s hold, whereby we are sealed.

Thus, the Catholic Church (very likely since Apostolic times according to Tertullian and possible references in the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, Pseudobarnabas,and St. Justin Martyr) has venerated the first day of the week with the highest esteem. The first day of the week in a more glorious way points us to God’s new and eternal acts. It fulfills the meaning of the seventh-day Sabbath within the realities of the New and everlasting Covenant, and celebrates events which absolutely eclipse the events which the seventh-day commemorates (mere shadows of these newer realities). Keeping the Sabbath day’s rhythm (one day in seven) and more powerfully expressing its spirit (the commemoration of God’s acts), the Lord’s day has always been by the Church’s consistent teaching, a legitimate expression of the fourth commandment. In fact, throughout her history, it has been the prefferred expression.

Will you find explicit Scriptures that ackowledge this fact? No. But you will read that the apostles (and their successors) were given the authority “to bind and to loose”, which (apart from its obvious application to the sacrament of reconciliation) would have been understood as the rabannical power to interpret the Law and legitmately define its observation. By this power, granted to the Church by Christ Himself, the observation of the Lord’s day became a true and more powerful expression of the fourth commandment. And yet, Christian’s know that this application is sealed by the divine authority that spoke: “what you will bind on earth WILL HAVE BEEN BOUND IN HEAVEN.” As all Apostolic churches (Roman, Greek, Coptic, Syriac, etc.) concur, with the inspired councils and the church fathers… the Lord’s day is THE day. Christ arose on a Sunday, and met with his followers on consecutive Sundays (establishing our precedent of meeting together on that day), to pour out the holy Spirit upon them on a Sunday.

Is the Sabbath forgotten? As I said before, it is not… it continues to have meaning and is venerated by Christians. But it is so easily lost in the divine glory of the Lord’s day, because all it commeorates and anticipates is simply THAT powerful, and bound with the very heart of Christianity.
 
Lol… a post-script, sry this is taking up so much writing, I have been workign through this issue for sometime myself (lol)
  1. I know you mentioned not to include the Resurrection as part of our response. However, the meaning of Sunday is found in the Resurrection itself. Rather than concede this central point, I challenge you with numerous studies done in this subject which powerfully vindicate the traditional cronography including: an entire book written by Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi’s (some chapters of which are available online at biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/)), and other such surveys (bringyou.to/apologetics/num56.htm)), google some more if need be.
In fact, I would invite you to demonstrate from the Christian tradition and fathers that Christ arose on any day other than a Sunday. One cannot ignore the universal Christian tradition, especially in the light of ample historical/biblical rebuttals of the opposing theory.
  1. Early Christians (specifically Tertullian in 200 CE) defended themselves against the charge that the Christian observation had significant roots in the pagan celelbration of the day of the sun (a celebration whose history gets rather sketchy anyways). The confusion you might have in why the church adopted the Sun-day was dealt by the Church 18 centuries ago, and rooted int he reasons I have already given for the Christian veneration thereof.The Germanic languages (like English) preserve the pagan designation, the Romance languages (like Spanish) preserve the day’s Christian meaning (Domingo = Lord’s day). But ultimately, I believe my above reasons were compelling enough to vindicate the Christian observance of Sunday.
  2. As for Alexander VI… his endorsement of the international dateline follows logicly from the realization that the world was a bigger place than most people had thought (lol). There needed to be a more orderly system for calculating the day on a spherical earth. It had nothing to do with Sunday, and no bearing on the practice.
I invite further questions (and gladly anticipate them)… 🙂 I myself am working through this issue (I’m not fully Catholic yet). But I will pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, and I offer my service to you in the love of Christ our Savior, who is more glorious than I can ever sing of,

Hugo.
 
I’d just like to reaffirm what Salmon posted in post#3. There is a figure of speech which is used frequently in scripture called “synecdoche”, where the whole is represented by the part or the part is represented by the whole. Thus, the expression “three days and three nights” is the “whole” which represents the “parts” of Friday evening, all of Saturday, and Sunday morning.

John.
 
adventistnomore said:
- The Bacchiocci link was wrong, here it is:

biblicalperspectives.com/books/crucifixion/
  • In fact, as I pray for you, pray for me that God will lead both of us into truth… All praise be His forever. 🙂
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Thanks for your posts - they are great to see!

I want to add 2 links about the timing of Jesus’ crucifixion:

bible.ca/d-3-days-and-3-nights.htm - an anti-Catholic site, but a good article
english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/cruxifix.pdf - the full text of Bacchiocchi’s book on the timing of the crucifixion (in PDF format) (at the link on his own site, given by adventistnomore, only 5 chapters are given.)

Also, from my website on Adventism/Catholicism, my page listing all I’ve written on the Sabbath issue, as well as other external links … hopefully these can help too. theotokos.co.za/adventism/sabbath.html

God bless,
Stephen
 
I’d like to add a note here. :bigyikes: In the beginning, the believers kept the Saturday sabbath, and the “Lord’s day” feast. They saw no need to stop being Jews in order to be christian. Well, these early believers were thrown out for preaching Christ as the Messiah. :hmmm: This led them to drop the saturday sabbath for the sunday worship. It was on a sunday that the Lord rose from the dead. They were celebrating this when they were still celebrating the sabbath.

A few years ago in this area, a book was making the rounds. “The National Sunday Law.” As far as I could tell, some one, or some group, did a mass mailing of this. In it, Catholics were accused of wrongly changing the “sabbath” to sunday. :tsktsk: This, of course, is wrong. The change wasn’t wrong. As far as I’m concerned, if Jesus wanted us to keep the Jewish sabbath, then He would have risen on a saturday!! :yup:

Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. And He said that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. Basically, He wants us to worship God, and He is God. Let’s not forget that. :nope:
 
Travis,
I see you are SDA. This is a Catholic site. Why are you here? If you want to learn, then fine, but if you are trying to cause trouble, then please go elsewhere. I don’t mean to be rude but I’ve heard some of your preachers on 3ABN and I’ve never heard such hatred come out of the mouths of Christians towards other faiths. They preach pure contempt and hatred and most of it is directed towards the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope.

:amen:
Shannin

“Upon this Rock build thy Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail…”
 
One more thing regarding “true sabbath day”. Catholics have Mass every day of the week and that includes Saturday.

Shannin
 
Shannin,

I’m sorry, but:

I feel it was wrong for you to question his presence on a Catholic forum… even if you weren’t trying to be rude. Travis’ question was well-meaning, and I appreciate his willingness to enter into so important a discussion. I wish more Protestants could find these forums… they need to enter into intelligent dialogue with Catholics. Only then can we truly find mutual understanding, and the truth together.

Also, I’m pretty sure Travis is NOT a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There are many other sabbatarian groups he might be a member of, or he might simply have an interest in the seventh-day Sabbath. However, Adventists do NOT hold the Wednesday crucifixion theory which he seems to hold.

Finally, I’m sorry that you’ve encountered so much anti-Catholic rhetoric from Adventist preachers. It makes me so sad… hurt… but, realize: Adventists – all of them – are sincere, and sadly misinformed. They truly do not know what they are doing, and we must have the pity and tears of Christ when speaking to them, and working with them. Also, remember the Seventh-day Adventist Church is so much more than its opposition to the Catholic Church. I am glad and proud to have been a Seventh-day Adventist, and I have learned so much from my experience, although God is correcting me, teaching me where I was wrong, and calling me to more – He is calling me home. Pray for Adventists, every night… familiarite yourself with their teachings, and learn to strengthen your defense of the Catholic faith. And love them dearly… God is calling them, especially.

In the peace of Christ,
  • Hugo
P.S. Thank you Travis… keep searching. We’re here for you.
 
My only real question for twagler is just why this was posted here when he knows full well what the Catholic position is going to be. He also knows that he has been told that we are everything from the whore of Babylon to the children of the antichrist and the persecutors of the faithful by his preachers and teachers. He makes no statement as to why he feels the need to post this. I too would really like to know why… and it’s not rude or unreasonable to ask this. If you disagree, I suggest that you have a look at this thread which I also participated in just the past 2 days.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=43094

You’ll find a fairly lengthy discussion about this very topic and my own opinions as well of many others.

I rejoice in the great posts from you who are former SDA. You give me hope for my best friend. You are great examples for us all in the charity and clarity of your posts. I may even copy aand past them into a document and send it to my buddy to read just to get our discussions off the ground.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Hi,

First of all, I did not mean to offend anyone. I am not SDA; I am just looking for answers. Thank you Hugo for not jumping to conclusions. I agree that we should worship God everyday of the week, not just on the Sabbath.

Militant: The KJV of Mark 16:9 reads quite differently. “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared…”
Was risen simply implies a resurrection. Moreover, there was no punctuation in the original text of the Bible, it was added. Maybe the comma was added in the wrong place; perhaps it should have come after the word risen. I would also like to see the inaccuracies of that particular booklet (America in Prophecy).

Hugo, thank you for the link to the Bacchiocchi book. I read through the online chapters and it seems to me that Bacc is an advocate of Saturday Sabbath. Also, I found his interpretation of John 19:14 to be suspect. This verse apparently suggests that Jesus was crucified on Passover, Wednesday. The evidence he uses is that the Greek word for preparation (*paraskeue) *meant Friday. My question is: Does the Bible ever refer to a preparation day before a high holy day, and not the weekly sabbath? If it does not, then I can see why it is believed that paraskeue means Friday, as it would not be used in any other context. I will try to find the answer to this. He also frequently says “Passover was supposedly…” He should have looked it up because Passover did fall on that Wednesday. Luke 22:15 clearly states that Jesus ate Passover meal with the disciples. Wouldn’t this meal have taken place on our Tuesday night?

In Mark 15:47, Mary Magdalene and her companion watched Joseph of Arimathea lay Jesus in the tomb near the end of the Passover. The next verse, Mark 16:1, tells us that after the “Sabbath,” Mary Magdalene and her companions bought spices with which to anoint Christ’s dead body. However, Luke 23:56 shows that they prepared the spices before the Sabbath. Naturally, they couldn’t have prepared spices before they were even bought! The only explanation that makes sense is that they bought the spices on Friday and prepared them the same day-after the annual Sabbath on Thursday and beforethe weekly Sabbath on Saturday! Then they rested on the weekly Sabbath-at the end of which Jesus was resurrected. The next morning, Sunday, they came to the tomb before sunrise and found him already gone. This paragraph is a direct quote from tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104414149

I urge you to read this article, and tell me how it is wrong. I have tried to prove it wrong, and have been unable to do so.
This booklet will also show how Paul, and the other disciples, kept the Saturday Sabbath even after Jesus’ death.
 
Another fascinating website is pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22d.htm
Here is some excerpts. This will also clear up the “sketchiness” of pagan sun worship.
Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea (270-338), generally considered to be Constantine’s outstanding flatterer in the church, made this remarkable statement: “All things whatsoever it was duty to do on the [Seventh day] Sabbath, these we [the church] have transferred to the Lord’s day.”–Commentary on the Psalms, in Migne, Patrologia Graeca, volume 23, column 1171.

Commenting on this heaven-daring statement, one historical writer says this: “Not a single testimony of the Scriptures was produced in proof of the new doctrine. Eusebius himself unwittingly acknowledges its falsity, and points to the real authors of the change. ‘All things,’ he says, ‘whatever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s day.’ But the Sunday argument, groundless as it was, served to embolden men in trampling upon the Sabbath of the Lord. All who desired to be honored by the world accepted the popular festival.”–E.G. White, The Great Controversy, page 574.

“Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: Sabbato–shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out [anathema, or excommunicated] from Christ.”–Council of Laodicea, Canon 29, in C.J. Hefele, A History of the Councils of the Church, volume 2, page 316.

“Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?”–Epistles, book 13:1, in Labbe and Cossart, Sacrosancta Concilia, volume 5, column 1511.

I have read the material that you have suggested. Now I ask of you to read these two fairly short articles, 25 minutes of your life. Once again the addresses are:
pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22d.htm
tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104414149

I only wish for everyone to know the truth, which is the Bible and nothing else. I hope that you will educate yourselves on these matters. Please note also that I am an open-minded individual who can and will change his mind if presented with sufficient evidence. I believe that this is the only logical stance to take in life.

Peace be with you,
Trav
 
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adventistnomore:
Finally, I’m sorry that you’ve encountered so much anti-Catholic rhetoric from Adventist preachers. It makes me so sad… hurt… but, realize: Adventists – all of them – are sincere, and sadly misinformed. They truly do not know what they are doing, and we must have the pity and tears of Christ when speaking to them, and working with them.
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Friend Hugo,
I agree with you on most everything… this is something that I do not agree on. The “misinformed but sincere” theory may have worked before there was the interent and a library every 10 miles, but today, there is no justification. When a person speaks in front of others, whether it be on TV or in an assembly hall, they have the responsibility to accurately represent Christians and non Christians a like, especially if they are doing this in the name of God. I am sure you listened to Doug Bachelor Sunday night… that was not a case of misinformation… that was a case of slander. He could easily check out his “facts” if he so chose!

What do you think?

Brandon
 
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twagler:
I only wish for everyone to know the truth, which is the Bible and nothing else. I hope that you will educate yourselves on these matters. Please note also that I am an open-minded individual who can and will change his mind if presented with sufficient evidence. I believe that this is the only logical stance to take in life.

Peace be with you,
Trav
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Trav,
Where in scripture does it say that the Bible and nothing else is truth as you have stated above?

What came first… the Bible or the Church?

Brandon
 
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twagler:
Hi,
I noticed most of the arguments regarding the switch from Saturday to Sunday centered on the resurrection of Christ, which is supposedly the first day, or Sunday. But is it? Matthew 12:40 clearly states that Jesus would be in the Earth for 3 days AND 3 nights. Friday to Sunday is not 72 hours, and I will not accept the partial day explanation. Matt 12:40 did not say part of… There were two sabbath days that week, one was a high holy day. For proof check out: www.tomorrowsworld.org go to the booklets section and click on “True Christian Sabbath Day.” Also, I find it strange that the sabbath was transferred to SUN-day. AND, what is with Pope Alexander VI and his bull establishing the Intenational Dateline? Could it be another attempt to mess up true sabbath keepers? I realize that I may be blind, but I would really appreciate a valid answer to the sabbath question. (not resurrection related, and not “that was the tradition of the church in the New Testament,” because it wasn’t). And if you strongly believe that this was the tradition, please provide scripture (not out of context please). Thank you for your time.

Travis
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7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20;7
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2 On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made. 1Cor16;2
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twagler:
I only wish for everyone to know the truth, which is the Bible and nothing else. I hope that you will educate yourselves on these matters. Please note also that I am an open-minded individual who can and will change his mind if presented with sufficient evidence. I believe that this is the only logical stance to take in life.

Peace be with you,
Trav
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I think that is hilarious. If you believe that, then you have to discount the bible itself because it was the Catholic Church at the councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage that put the bible together and decided what books were canonical. So, it is either both the Church and the bible or it is neither because the bible is a product of the Church.
 
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