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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Then no problem. As long as it wasn’t billed as a Mass which counted as meeting the Mass obligation.
- Status
J
Jeanne1184
Guest
No, I just forgot to grab the rest of the context when I hit ‘quote reply’. Sorry. Here’s the ‘run’:That’s a powerful passage, but who are you referring to? The members of other faiths who were invited to the Church? The Holy Father? (I sincerely hope the answer is none of the above.)
Matt. 244:4-5 – And Jesus answering said to them, ‘Take heed that no one may lead you astray, for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray, …
Who, but Satan working in them, would cause others to declare themselves Christ?
2 Thes. 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Are we there yet?
C
clem456
Guest
November 17, 2013
Gospel Lk 21:5-19
While some people were speaking about
how the temple was adorned with costly stones and votive offerings,
Jesus said, “All that you see here–
the days will come when there will not be left
a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.”
Reading 1 Mal 3:19-20a
Lo, the day is coming, blazing like an oven,
when all the proud and all evildoers will be stubble,
and the day that is coming will set them on fire,
leaving them neither root nor branch,
says the LORD of hosts.
But for you who fear my name, there will arise
the sun of justice with its healing rays.
Food for thought.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Getting back to the OP, it amazes me that these folks would use the Rosary in such a way. “Shouting” the prayers for the purpose of disruption. Such behavior only validates what non-Catholics think of us.
The Rosary is indeed a weapon, but it’s power is one of love, not disruption.
Prayer is not prayer if it is to draw attention to the person praying.
I seem to remember Jesus saying something about that…
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ProVobis
Guest
Indeed. But I still feel somewhat uncomfortable going to a Lutheran memorial, a Baptist wedding, or a Episcopal organ recital. My parents even used to take us to the Bahai Temple in Wilmette, Ill and that felt weird. I guess some things are just too deeply ingrained in us. Just saying.
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Lormar
Guest
I’m with you, Pro Vobis.
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TimothyH
Guest
I thought about this whole affair a little this afternoon and I started laughing when I realized how truly absurd it is.
We worship a Jew in the Catholic Church. We consume the entire substance of a Jew in the Catholic Church and are thereby incorporated into the body of a Jew. We venerate the Mother of a Jew, herself a devout Jew in the Catholic Church… Why would we not pray with a Jew in a Catholic Church?
If we want to keep the Jews out then we have to keep Christ and his mother out.
-Tim-
We worship a Jew in the Catholic Church. We consume the entire substance of a Jew in the Catholic Church and are thereby incorporated into the body of a Jew. We venerate the Mother of a Jew, herself a devout Jew in the Catholic Church… Why would we not pray with a Jew in a Catholic Church?
If we want to keep the Jews out then we have to keep Christ and his mother out.
-Tim-
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Timothysis
Guest
:clapping:
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KyrieEleison17
Guest
I get where you are going with this but let’s not forget that “in him there is neither Jew nor gentile,” etc. I register (and agree with) your point completely but I think there’s a balance too.
Personally I don’t see any difficulties with it; indeed, I really wish these people (the protesters) would realize that those attending are by no means disrespecting or dishonouring the Church or the Cathedral; in fact (and if anything) the very opposite! It also shows the Church to be clearly a part of the whole community, with the community and for the community. That’s a good message and it’s true to the Church’s spirit.
As the link I posted above says, ecumenism is not just about mere “tolerance”: it is about building friendships ever mindful of our Faith that reveals to us that all men are the sons of Adam: i.e. there exists a real human family that can neither be denied nor dissolved. Whether we like it or not, we are brothers.
Furthermore, let us not forget the lessons to be learned from the Good Samaritan.
Moreover, did the Angels not sing and declare “Peace on earth and good-will toward men”? Some say “peace toward men of good-will”; but so be it, for the criteria for the “peace” ( the “shalom”) is being “of good-will”. Now cooperating with and associating with your neighbours even though you don’t agree with their religion is an act of good-will. Therefore we ought to deliver them our own sincere “Peace be with you” too; after all, God’s angels do.
I see no theological basis for an objection on what is actually being done here. And for the good of our communities and nations I would strongly encourage all believers to seek to build friendships with others and thus build and promote peace in their communities, cultures and nations.
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willie_duggan
Guest
They’re welcome to attend Mass.
What was being staged in that church wasn’t Mass.
If you accept that a church is a sacred place, then this very simple concept should not be difficult to understand.
A Catholic church should not be used to stage non-Catholic ceremonies such as an ecumenical one.
If you don’t accept that a church is a sacred place…
T
Timothysis
Guest
Apparently, you don’t accept what Brother JR has already said; that the bishop has the right to hold such an event in his cathedral and that it is endorsed by the Holy Father which makes it a Catholic event. Your opinion that “A* Catholic church should not be used to stage non-Catholic ceremonies such as an ecumenical one*” is yours alone and carries no weight. Or do you not believe that a Catholic should be respectful and accepting of the authority of priest, bishop and pope?
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willie_duggan
Guest
Brother JR is entitled to his view.
I am entitled to disagree with that JR’s view and I am entitled to assert that if a Catholic church is a sacred place, then only sacred Catholic ceremonies should be celebrated in a Catholic church.
The permission of the Pope/Bishop/Priest doesn’t take precedence over sanctity.
I do have a suggestion though, if the clergy of various beliefs and their congregations wish to engage in ecumenism - what is preventing them from attending formal religious ceremonies in their respective places of worship instead?
Each congregation could celebrate their respective religious ceremonies in their own places of worship attended by clergy and congregations from other faiths ie, catholics could attend a synagogue on a particular date and vice versa, or a protestant could attend a mosque and vice versa.
There is nothing preventing this from happening and it would preserve the sanctity of the respective ceremonies while respecting the sanctity particular to each faith.
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clem456
Guest
This already happens all over the place. In my own little town we have about 10 different churches every year, including The Church, attend an ecumenical service on Thanksgiving Eve. This year we are hosting at the Catholic Church. We will be singing our hearts out in praise of the one God.
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willie_duggan
Guest
Your congregation should be concelebrating a Mass instead.
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JReducation
Guest
This is not Brother’s position. This has been Catholic tradition since the Church was first divided into dioceses. The bishop is the local Church. Only the Patriarch has jurisdiction over the bishop, which in the case of the Latin Church, we no longer have a patriarch; however, the Bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction. If what the bishop approves is sustained by the Bishop of Rome, none of us has the authority to overrule it.
It is equally important that in expressing our opinions in matters pertaining to Canon Law and the rights of bishops and major superiors that one always preface one’s statement by saying, **"I believe . . . " **or "I it is my opinion that . . . " so that any other person who is reading what we are saying knows that this is not an authoritative statement, but a personal opinion. When necessary one should conclude by telling his reader the authoritative rule or custom. I can say, “I believe that there ecumenical services should not be held in a church and that only Catholic liturgy should be held there. However, Canon Law gives the local bishop the authority to make use of the cathedral for any purpose that he deems is pastorally necessary and for any function that he believes does not take away from the dignity of the church building.” A statement made this way still represents us, but does not mislead the reader by appearing to be authoritative or legislative.
We can certainly express as many opinions against it as we want. But we must accept that our opinions against something like this will be like ashes in the wind. The authority of the local bishop and that of the pope overrule our opinions. It is the Church who defines what is holy and sacred, not us.
Your argument is that this was not a sacred or holy event. As far as everyone knows, this was a memorial which was prayer, with a sermon, hymns and Sacred Scripture. None of these defy the definition of holy. Since this is not a liturgical event, this kind of event falls under the umbrella of Spiritual Theology.
I ask you, where in Catholic Spiritual Theology does it say that only Catholics can pray in a Catholic Church?
Where in Catholic Spiritual Theology does it say that the prayer of an interfaith group is less sacred or holy than the prayer of Catholics?
Where in Catholic Spiritual Theology does it say that one religious tradition’s prayer is more sacred than another?
Catholic Spiritual Theology is very clear that prayer is prayer, regardless of who prays or where they pray as long as they pray with the intent of raising their hearts and minds to God.
The proper use of church buildings is governed not by theology, but by Canon Law.
The next question is where in the Code of 1983 does it say that a bishop cannot invite non-Catholics to pray with his Church in his cathedral?
Where in the Code of 1983 does it say that a church building can only be used for mass?
There is no such prohibition in the Code. The Code is very clear that a church building cannot be used for anything that takes away from the fact that it’s a church. Since Catholic Spiritual Theology defines prayer as raising the mind and heart to God, but it does not say that only Catholics can do this, there is nothing contrary to Canon Law in this gathering.
In fact, in Canon Law there is an imperative that bishops encourage this type of prayerful gathering in our churches. It is also part of the teachings of the current Magisterium.
821c - prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'
It has also been a long standing custom that Catholic cathedrals have doubled as places of worship and centers of culture and beauty. Thus, they have been and continue to be used for concerts, plays, and the presentation of other art forms. This goes back to the Middle Ages, probably before then since most communities did not have theaters or museums. Until Bl. John Paul constructed the Paul VI Auditorium, the Basilica of St. Peter itself served as a concert hall, theater and a museum. This is why most basilicas and cathedrals keep the tabernacle in an adjacent chapel and not on the main sanctuary or they may have a place of repose for the Blessed Sacrament, which is moved from the main sanctuary.
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vames
Guest
If a Catholic church hosts a concert where Jewish, Catholic, Protestant and Muslim musicians gather together to perform the Matthaeus Passion, a religious musical composition by the Protestant composer Bach, how is this allowed?
How come that the SSPX people don’t attempt to disrupt such concerts and shout “We cannot accept the presence of another faith in our church”?
So were they upset purely because it was an ecumenical event or because they couldn’t bear the idea that it was a commemoration of Kristallnacht?
Here’s a guy who thought he could “call a spade a spade”
popefrancisthedestroyer.blogspot.com/2013/11/sspx-expulsion-of-jew-moneychangers.html
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Timothysis
Guest
Since you are new here, I think it pertinent to inform you that Brother JR is a Franciscan and a credentialed theologian. What he tells you is not his view, it is the view of the Church. If there is just one thing that I have learned here it is that it does not matter what you, I or even Brother JR “think” is right or wrong; what matters is what the Church, the authoritative body, teaches. Brother JR can (and has) backed up everything he has said. Until you can do the same, perhaps it would be best to appreciate what he has said.
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Timothysis
Guest
That article is truly disgusting. These are the people who think they defend the Catholic faith?Here’s a guy who thought he could “call a spade a spade”
popefrancisthedestroyer.blogspot.com/2013/11/sspx-expulsion-of-jew-moneychangers.html
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vames
Guest
Too bad he’s not alone.
Here’s a group of “Traditionalist Catholics of Argentina” denouncing “the Judeo-Modernist armies who want to destroy everything that is Catholic”. And who is the chief Modernist? Pope Francis, obviously! A Pope who is mocked and defied daily on such sites (this is the site which inspired those bloggers). “Didn’t he say that young people should ‘make noise’? Here are young people ‘making noise’!” What a shame.
T
Thomas_Casey
Guest
FINAL ADVISORY
I’ve cleaned up this thread. Any more antagonistic posts and the thread will be closed.
As I said before, you may not contradict the Holy See or current Church law. You may express your opinion, provided that you do not dictate to others contrary to what the Church allows or encourages.
I’ve cleaned up this thread. Any more antagonistic posts and the thread will be closed.
As I said before, you may not contradict the Holy See or current Church law. You may express your opinion, provided that you do not dictate to others contrary to what the Church allows or encourages.
- Status