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simple_soul
Guest
I could be wrong but now that you bring up this point I wonder if that is why this particular celebration was not done during a Mass or Liturgy.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
It is true that discerners were asked to leave before the Liturgy of the Eucharist. However, there are other liturgies and celebrations other than Mass. I have never heard of a ruling that said catechumens cuold be present for LOTH or Adoration or any other ceremonies.
The Friars of the Atonement are a very special case. They were founded as an Episcopalian order in 1898 with both friars and sisters. However within several years - within the founders’ lifetimes - they chose to convert to be a Catholic order. They were received into the Church as a body, not individually. They have worked for ecumenism ever since then. They are fully Catholic and yet regularly hold celebrations with those of other faiths or Christian practices. That is what God has called the order to do.
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clem456
Guest
The candidates are not asked to leave because they might defile the sanctuary by witnessing the celebration of the Eucharist. They leave to break open the word which has been proclaimed, to continue the process they have begun towards communion.
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Lormar
Guest
Funny you should mention that religious community. At this very moment, I am reading the biography of Mother Lurana A Woman of Unity.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
Amazing woman! Her journey into the Catholic church - and the level of faith she exhibited even as an Episcopalian - reminds me of St Elizabeth Ann Seton.
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Seamus_L
Guest
I just play it safe and avoid any and all ecumenical services.
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TimothyH
Guest
I prayed with a Methodist at his bedside in the hospital last night.
I also prayed last week with a Muslim who was born on the island of Mauritius (near Madagascar). He invited me into his home, made me a dish called Briani and mint tea and after my visit we invoked the name of God each in our own way. He said to me, “Most of the people don’t think of God. At least we think about God and these things”, smiled and gave me a great big hug.
I prayed with some young door-to-door Mormons while I was on a run a few months ago. I stopped to chat, asked them what they were doing and how it was going, and we prayed breifly, each in our own way. I asked that Mary keep them safe as they travel.
It’s not dangerous at all, especially for one who is strong in their faith. Here in the South, Baptists and Evangelicals are not afraid to pray in public and it is important for Catholics to be able to do so as well. You have to be able to pray publically down here, especially if you are the male head of a household or you will not be taken seriously as a Christian. Most Evangelicals are like, “Wow, that was a great prayer! Did you say that you were Catholic!?” Then the conversation can begin.
-Tim-
I also prayed last week with a Muslim who was born on the island of Mauritius (near Madagascar). He invited me into his home, made me a dish called Briani and mint tea and after my visit we invoked the name of God each in our own way. He said to me, “Most of the people don’t think of God. At least we think about God and these things”, smiled and gave me a great big hug.
I prayed with some young door-to-door Mormons while I was on a run a few months ago. I stopped to chat, asked them what they were doing and how it was going, and we prayed breifly, each in our own way. I asked that Mary keep them safe as they travel.
It’s not dangerous at all, especially for one who is strong in their faith. Here in the South, Baptists and Evangelicals are not afraid to pray in public and it is important for Catholics to be able to do so as well. You have to be able to pray publically down here, especially if you are the male head of a household or you will not be taken seriously as a Christian. Most Evangelicals are like, “Wow, that was a great prayer! Did you say that you were Catholic!?” Then the conversation can begin.
-Tim-
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Seamus_L
Guest
That’s a little different. I’m referring to those within a church or other house of worship.
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willie_duggan
Guest
I’m saying that by definition an ecumenical service cannot be a Catholic ceremony.
I fail to see how an ecumenical ceremony can be defined by you as a Catholic ceremony.
At the second time of asking can you explain to me your basis for defining an ecumenical service as being a Catholic ceremony?
Why are you refusing to define how you derive that an ecumenical service can be a catholic ceremony?
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Lormar
Guest
That’s wonderful for you. We are not, however, all endowed with the same gifts. Nor is the Holy Spirit inspiring every Catholic in the same way.I prayed with a Methodist at his bedside in the hospital last night.
I also prayed last week with a Muslim who was born on the island of Mauritius (near Madagascar). He invited me into his home, made me a dish called Briani and mint tea and after my visit we invoked the name of God each in our own way. He said to me, “Most of the people don’t think of God. At least we think about God and these things”, smiled and gave me a great big hug.
I prayed with some young door-to-door Mormons while I was on a run a few months ago. I stopped to chat, asked them what they were doing and how it was going, and we prayed breifly, each in our own way. I asked that Mary keep them safe as they travel.
It’s not dangerous at all, especially for one who is strong in their faith. Here in the South, Baptists and Evangelicals are not afraid to pray in public and it is important for Catholics to be able to do so as well. You have to be able to pray publically down here, especially if you are the male head of a household or you will not be taken seriously as a Christian. Most Evangelicals are like, “Wow, that was a great prayer! Did you say that you were Catholic!?” Then the conversation can begin.
-Tim-
I don’t think that we should be questioning the strength or weakness of anyone’s Catholic Faith just because we do not see things the same way.
Try to understand that some of us simply do not feel comfortable with the present ecumenism - such as it is - anymore than we would feel comfortable at a charismatic meeting.
That’s just the way it is. And it doesn’t make us less Catholic.
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simple_soul
Guest
I am not refusing anything. All I know is that it is my understanding that the Church teaches that we should practice ecumenism and should be ecumenical. What other explanation would or could there possibly be for having an ecumenical celebration other than the Church teaching us to be ecumenical and to practice ecumenism?
I have no other explanation and I do not believe I need any other explanation at this time.
Not sure what you are looking for me to say. Does not the Church teach us that we need to be ecumenical and should practice ecumenism? If she does then what other explanation is needed?
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TimothyH
Guest
I was not accusing anyone of being less Catholic. I was responding to someone who said that they avoid ecumenical services in order to “play it safe.”
My point was that it is not unsafe to pray with anyone anywhere for one who is strong in their faith.
-Tim-
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JReducation
Guest
Willie, Catholic is anything that the Church embraces as her own or that flows out of her mission. In the CCC the Church makes it very clear that ecumenism is natural to her mission. Tradition tells us that even though the word “ecumenism” is fairly new, the practice can be traced back to St. Francis of Assisi and the Friars Minor in Jerusalem as early as 1219. There may be earlier examples from the Carmelites who were there before the Franciscans. But the Franciscans were the first to be formally commissioned on a mission to serve people of several faiths, without making any overt attempt to convert them, but always welcoming those who came on their own.
Yes, this service is Catholic, if we believe what the Church teaches in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the documents of Vatican II that ecumenism is a natural and essential ministry to the Church and that all ecumenical actions are part of her outreach to people of other faiths, not to proselytize to them, but to offer them her friendship and encourage mutual respect, peace between peoples, and growth toward the fullness of truth.
This service is one of many actions that the Church encourages Catholics to undertake. The Church, by her nature cannot encourage Catholics to undertake anything that is contrary to the Catholic faith. That which is not contrary to the Catholic faith is either consistent with the Catholic faith or neutral.
In this case, it is consistent, because the Church has declared that ecumenism and such services are necessary and should take place. Canon Law tells us that the bishop must consider those of other faiths as part of his duty.
When he extends to them an invitation to pray for those who died at the hands of violence, be it Nazism, abortion, crime, or war, and to pray that this will never happen again, the bishop is exercising his Catholic ministry.
If this had been a gathering to pray for the end of abortion, I wonder if people would be as upset to have Jews and Protestants attend.
I respect that you say that this is your opinion. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. You have a right to be respected, regardless.
I would tell anyone who is reading through this thread that the official belief of the Catholic Church is
- The Church has as part of her mission to extend herself to people of other faiths through every ecumenical means possible that is compliant with Church law.
- A bishop is the head of the local Church and every church building in the diocese belongs to him. Therefore, he has the right to invite anyone he pleases to pray in our churches and we have no right to protest. We are not the Church. The Church is where the bishop is.
- This particular service was a memorial service for people who died at the hands of violence. These people were as innocent of crime as the child in the womb. Evangelium Vitae (Gospel of Life) commands all Catholics to take an active part in every event and action to promote the sanctity of Life form conception to death and to include people of other faiths.
- It has never been the practice of the Catholic Church not to allow non-Catholics to pray in our churches. The ancient practice in the Latin Church, which is still in place in some Eastern Catholic Churches, of asking the catechumens to leave after the liturgy of the Word, is only to be applied in the celebration of the mass or Divine Liturgy. It is not about the building. It is about the liturgy of the Eucharist. The catechumens were not allowed to be present for the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This does not apply here, because this is neither a mass nor a Divine Liturgy.
- At the birth of the 20th century the Holy Father approved the erection of the Franciscans of the Atonement (friars and sisters). This branch of the Franciscan family was commissioned with the work of ecumenism. It was the Franciscans of the Atonement who started holding ecumenical prayer services in Catholic Churches, with the approval of Pope Pius XI. This is their sole reason to exist. They do not exist to convert non Catholics, but to promote unity and fraternal charity.
- It is the desire of the popes, including Benedict XVI and Francis that every Catholic cooperate with the local bishops and parish priests in every ecumenical effort.
An opinion of a Catholic and a Catholic opinion are not the same thing. The later carries authority; the former does not and usually is of little interest to the Holy See.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
The monks at Camaldoli were specifically commissioned by the Holy Father(s) to “do” ecumenical outreach.
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willie_duggan
Guest
Thanks for your considered reply.
I rejoice at the thought that non-Catholics attend the Mass and hear the Good News.
Both are the Church. That is not an opinion, that is fact.
For clarity, no one on this thread stated to disallow non-Catholics from praying in our church.
Some of us Catholics hold the view that our place of worship ought to be just that, a place of worship.
A place of Catholic worship, where Catholic rites are practiced exclusively and not a place where non-Catholic “ecumenical” services ought to be staged.
My own view is that if ecumenical services are required to be held that they be not staged within the confines of the church building, on sacred ground, where we Catholics worship.
Unity is the declared mission of the church and it is her wish to see all of those who have are not part of the Church currently to come back to the Catholic church in which the deposit of faith solely subsists.
I have no difficulty whatsoever with non-Catholics attending our Church to attend Catholic ceremonies such as Mass.
I rejoice at the thought that non-Catholics attend the Mass and hear the Good News.
The Church comprises both Laity and Clergy (Hierarchy).
Both are the Church. That is not an opinion, that is fact.
Where does it say that a church should be used to stage an ecumenical service?
Agreed.
For clarity, no one on this thread stated to disallow non-Catholics from praying in our church.
Hmmm.
Some of us Catholics hold the view that our place of worship ought to be just that, a place of worship.
A place of Catholic worship, where Catholic rites are practiced exclusively and not a place where non-Catholic “ecumenical” services ought to be staged.
My own view is that if ecumenical services are required to be held that they be not staged within the confines of the church building, on sacred ground, where we Catholics worship.
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willie_duggan
Guest
I won’t be posting to this thread further.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Well, there it is, then. After 7 pages and 98 posts we have the crux of the matter. It seems to have boiled down to an “agree to disagree” point, because it doesn’t seem like it can end any other way.
Presumably that means no wedding rehearsals, no choir concerts, no alter server training, no tours…
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JReducation
Guest
I didn’t know that about them. Thanks for the info.
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JReducation
Guest
This is true; this is dependent on a hierarchical relationship where everything flows from the bishop. That’s how the Greeks arrived a the term hierarchy. It’s the Church governed by the Heiros, The Priest, meaning the bishop. Without a bishop, there is no Church, because there is no Apostolic Succession. It is for this reason that we Catholics and Orthodox pay close attention to the wishes of the bishop, because without him we are not Church.
Everyone needs to understand that the Church would never say this, because in her mind, this is prayer, not a staging. A staging is a performance.
In Roman Law there is a principle. If the law does not prohibit it, one can assume that it allows it, unless the Church or another competent authority prohibits it. In this case, the local bishop is not in conflict with the law. We cannot create a scenario pretending that he is in conflict with a non-existent prohibition. No individual can prohibit what the Church allows or allow what the Church prohibits, unless he meets certain criteria. Which are not being met by those who are protesting.
This is fine. The Church gives you the freedom to hold this position.
For the rest of us. The Church does not allow us to embrace this position as authoritative or representative of her mind. If we choose to embrace this position, we may do so as long as we admit to ourselves and to others, that the Church does not believe this.
Actually, I’m not sure if we agree to disagree. I think that Willie has courageously and politely admitted that this is his position and that his position dissents from that of the Magisterium. I don’t disagree on this point. Do you?
One can argue that these are “Catholic events”.
They certainly can be, even the concert. For something to be Catholic it simply needs to be embraced by the Church or flow out of the Church. There are some things that the Church endorses, but does not embrace. Those things are neutral, not Catholic. She can never endorse or embrace what is contrary to her faith.
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on_the_hill
Guest
If his point is that he dissents, then no, I don’t disagree that he disagrees.
Yes, with that I agree. But he seemed to be drawing a distinction between Catholic Rites, which I interpret to specifically Rites with a capital R (Holy Communion, Mass, Reconciliation, Matrimony), and Catholic events.
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