Truly Lost.......

[Antonius_Lupus]

To my brethren who share my love of the “old ways.”

I am now lost. I am revert to the Catholic faith, coming from an evangelical background. I am currently going through a big struggle with the Pauline Mass. I can’t stand what I see as clear Protestant-like services. We have hymns I sung as a Baptist.

I came into the Church expecting to see the reverence of Holy Mass…what I see is something sickeningly similar to a Methodist service.

I have longed defended Mother Church’s changes of Vatican II. I have long defended the Pauline Mass as a restoration of the pre-medieval heritage of the Roman Rite. I have held out hope that Rome would oneday step in to make the Mass what it was meant to be…namely a traditionally performed Roman Rite. But after realizing that Rome seems to have approved of things like the Charismatic Catholic renewal and Lifteen, I am truly afraid.

It is not as if in my parish the Mass is abused either. The rubrics in the GIRM are followed to the letter. But even then the Ordinary form lacks the reverence that I had hoped to see. There is no way for me to attend a Tridentine rite regularly…but I have decided to regularly attend Divine Liturgy with the Melkite Byzantine Catholics (many of whom aided me in coming home to the Catholic Church).

I have discussed this perpetually with my spiritual father who aided me in coming home to Rome. However at this point he says that he doesn’t know what to say to me, simply telling me to trust in the collective wisdom of the Church. I fear though that the Roman rite is dying…so much diversification. I still believe that the Ordinary Form can be something beautiful and reverent, but I am losing faith that Rome will ever return to the “old ways.”

Suffice it to say that I am now experiencing the cross of sacrifice that is obedience to Mother Church’s judgement on what is timeless and what is changeable in the last bastion of liturgy still extant in Occidental Christianity. As I began my search for vocations information, I was told that the call to obediance is far more difficult to follow than that of chastity. While I accepted this intellectually, I now experience it. And it is a sickening feeling.

A traditionalists in a book I read warned that the ultramontanist position would one day dissapoint people like me on the personal level. He seemed to suggest that Rome is going somewhere where we who love the old ways, when push came to shove, couldn’t go. But if the judgement of Rome was good enough for St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Maximos, then Her judgement MUST be good enough for me (I hope). I do not like the fact that Rome allows some Catholic liturgies to be done where the laity appear to be imitating evangelical worship styles: Clapping, hand raising, etc. But I suppose if I were to speak with St. John Chysostom, he would fiercely command me to follow where Rome leads. Heck! It was his words (and the rest of the Eastern Fathers) that smacked me into steering clear of becoming Orthodox (which I seriously considered).

This, I believe, remains the the key ingredient in the Orthodox schismatic appeal that so often grips me. Orthodox Christianity’s worship is truly timeless, there is something there that is beyond words. . . . but, I suppose in the end all that beauty and majesty did not save them from themselves. Just the other day I listened to an Orthodox Christian openly say that contraception is acceptable in some cases.

The Holy Spirit is maddening! For whatever He is doing, He is calling me to a level of obedience that I cannot imagine. If He is truly at work in what I see in the Roman Rite (as I believe He is), then He must truly be a Comforter for me.

I don’t know what to do anymore. My faith in Rome has been shaken after seeing the Pauline Mass in the shape it is in…and since I have no alternative except the Byzantine Liturgy (not to mention my own love of Eastern Christianity and their theological perspective) I am now considering abandoning the rite of my Western heritage and embracing the Byzantine Catholic Church.

I still love the Roman Church, but my faith in the Church to truly restore the Roman Mass according to the Council is wavering…and with that wavering comes a shaking faith in the Second Vatican Council itself.

LORD HAVE MERCY!

I am hoping since my spiritual father cannot aid me, someone here can.

-Antonius Ioannes +

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Also…as a side note…

Did any of the StarWars fans out there catch the reference to Anakin in Episode III?

I have to try to keep up some spirit with all this.

 

[excaliber]

I am very interested in this.
what exactly did you see that was supporting any false teaching.
Or what hymn was not apropriate for a Catholic.

Where there any errors taught?

As far as the charismatic Catholics…was that not the OLD way? From 33ce?

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I am very interested in this.
what exactly did you see that was supporting any false teaching.
Or what hymn was not apropriate for a Catholic.

Where there any errors taught?

As far as the charismatic Catholics…was that not the OLD way? From 33ce?

Nothing in particular. It just seemed to Protestant, too similar to what I had known before and not in keeping with the spirit of reverence and awe that accompanied the Mass for so many centuries.

 

[excaliber]

Nothing in particular. It just seemed to Protestant, too similar to what I had known before and not in keeping with the spirit of reverence and awe that accompanied the Mass for so many centuries.

I understand.
I was raised Jehovahs witness and
Did not get any authentic christianity other then the bible.

Right now to be honest I struggle with Catholic and Orthodox…but me personaly…while the beautifull
masses are ausome.
They all proclaim the same truth.

I admire your zeal for pure worship. but the tone of your post leads me to believe that, you are experiencing something NEGATIVE

I think back to the time before we had these beautifull churches. When Mass was done at tombs and Christians were in persecution.

Mabey its not where we have Mass. but That Christ makes sure we are feed spiritualy.

So I hope you find balance.
Keep your zeal, while at the same time apreciating ANY spiritual food you are givin to eat.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jacafamala]

The Holy Spirit is maddening! For whatever He is doing, He is calling me to a level of obedience that I cannot imagine. If He is truly at work in what I see in the Roman Rite (as I believe He is), then He must truly be a Comforter for me.

Perhaps Our Lord also calling you to a love for our traditions that, were it not for lack of them you wouldn’t have ever been able to know. This is what I’ve learned recently. Don’t despair; you’re not alone. There are many here who feel the same pains. Tradition isn’t dead.

 

[Cinette]

I am now lost. I am revert to the Catholic faith, coming from an evangelical background. I am currently going through a big struggle with the Pauline Mass. I can’t stand what I see as clear Protestant-like services. We have hymns I sung as a Baptist.

I came into the Church expecting to see the reverence of Holy Mass…what I see is something sickeningly similar to a Methodist service. Ouch - sickening? You cannot be serious!

I have longed defended Mother Church’s changes of Vatican II. I have long defended the Pauline Mass as a restoration of the pre-medieval heritage of the Roman Rite. I have held out hope that Rome would oneday step in to make the Mass what it was meant to be…namely a traditionally performed Roman Rite. But after realizing that Rome seems to have approved of things like the Charismatic Catholic renewalHey, wait a minute - you don’t realise how very important and beneficial the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is. I have seen it transform people and their prayer life has been enriched and the Mass has more meaning for them. You may not be comfortable with certain manifestations of the Charismatics but don’t criticise them and call them sickening. I just do not agree. Although I do not manifest my faith in the same way as the Charismatics I will defend them as I have learned so much from them and I believe that the Renewal is very important. The Church has to be continually renewed. and Lifteen, I am truly afraid.

It is not as if in my parish the Mass is abused either. The rubrics in the GIRM are followed to the letter. But even then the Ordinary form lacks the reverence that I had hoped to see. There is no way for me to attend a Tridentine rite regularly…but I have decided to regularly attend Divine Liturgy with the Melkite Byzantine Catholics (many of whom aided me in coming home to the Catholic Church).:yup: :yup: :clapping: You do that!

I have discussed this perpetually with my spiritual father who aided me in coming home to Rome. However at this point he says that he doesn’t know what to say to me, simply telling me to trust in the collective wisdom of the Church. I fear though that the Roman rite is dying…so much diversification. I still believe that the Ordinary Form can be something beautiful and reverent, but I am losing faith that Rome will ever return to the “old ways.” You should be open to both old and new - “different strokes for different folks”

Suffice it to say that I am now experiencing the cross of sacrifice that is obedience to Mother Church’s judgement on what is timeless and what is changeable in the last bastion of liturgy still extant in Occidental Christianity. As I began my search for vocations information, I was told that the call to obediance is far more difficult to follow than that of chastity. While I accepted this intellectually, I now experience it. And it is a sickening feeling.Offer this “sickening feeling” to the Lord and pray for guidance!

A traditionalists in a book I read warned that the ultramontanist position would one day dissapoint people like me on the personal level. He seemed to suggest that Rome is going somewhere where we who love the old ways, when push came to shove, couldn’t go. But if the judgement of Rome was good enough for St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil, and St. Maximos, then Her judgement MUST be good enough for me (I hope). I do not like the fact that Rome allows some Catholic liturgies to be done where the laity appear to be imitating evangelical worship styles: Clapping, hand raising, etc. But I suppose if I were to speak with St. John Chysostom, he would fiercely command me to follow where Rome leads. Heck! It was his words (and the rest of the Eastern Fathers) that smacked me into steering clear of becoming Orthodox (which I seriously considered).Have you watched the Pope say Mass on TV? Do you object to it?

This, I believe, remains the the key ingredient in the Orthodox schismatic appeal that so often grips me. Orthodox Christianity’s worship is truly timeless, there is something there that is beyond words. . . . but, I suppose in the end all that beauty and majesty did not save them from themselves. You said it!Just the other day I listened to an Orthodox Christian openly say that contraception is acceptable in some cases.

The Holy Spirit is maddening!WHAT are you saying?? Or have you made a typing error??!!~ For whatever He is doing, He is calling me to a level of obedience that I cannot imagine. If He is truly at work in what I see in the Roman Rite (as I believe He is), then He must truly be a Comforter for me

I don’t know what to do anymore. My faith in Rome has been shaken after seeing the Pauline Mass in the shape it is in…and since I have no alternative except the Byzantine Liturgy (not to mention my own love of Eastern Christianity and their theological perspective) I am now considering abandoning the rite of my Western heritage and embracing the Byzantine Catholic Church.That might be best for you.

I still love the Roman Church, but my faith in the Church to truly restore the Roman Mass according to the Council is wavering…and with that wavering comes a shaking faith in the Second Vatican Council itself.

LORD HAVE MERCY! I am sure that what you are experiencing is not as bad as the people in Portugal where part of the liturgy is left out and there are no Confessionals. Are you aware that the Vatican is presently revising the Missal and there will be some minor changes to the Mass I understand.

I am hoping since my spiritual father cannot aid me, someone here can.

-Antonius Ioannes +

 

[strugglingalong]

Your post brought tears to my eyes because it resonates so very much within my own soul and in my own thoughts. Right now, honestly, the Church is in a very difficult situation and very many Catholics are suffering. Dissent and heresy are rampant while our Shepherds fear taking a stand against them, not realizing that excommunication and refusing Sacraments is an act of charity in hopes of true repentance. Regardless, to the liturgy…

I attend a Traditional Latin Mass and I have to say that I am very sorry there is not one you can attend. When you speak of the timeless Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox, it reminds me that the traditional Roman Rite liturgy incited the same aspirations and had the same effect. The introduction and indeed, at times, enforcement of the Pauline New Mass has been detrimental. It is quite Protestant in many ways (see Card. Ottaviani’s arguments on this issue), which makes sense since Protestants were involved with the concilium. There is a lack of reverence and mystery in the New Mass. There is also a watering down of what we believe as Catholics: the language as not as explicit and clear of Catholic beliefs.

It’s a very difficult time. Keep in mind that just because a liturgy has been approved by the Pope that doesn’t mean that liturgy is prudent or the best for the life of the Faithful. Alcuin Reid speaks of the ultramontanism that started to show up around the time of Pius XI (I think?). It’s a danger. Have you read Reid’s book on the organic development of the Roman Rite? The problem with the New Mass is that it’s development was largely inorganic and disregarded the historical development of the Roman Rite liturgy. It introduced novelties and made wholesale changes. That is the problem and we’re seeing the effects of it. I also cannot say that those who lead the concilium didn’t have their own agenda, sadly.

I must agree with Dr. Dietrich von Hildebrand, that our obedience to the Pope and the Ordinary Magisterium does not mean we have to sit and say that every decision is good for the life of the Church. He states that we can speak our objections to liturgical changes while stating our true fidelity to the Magisterium. Yes, we must always remain in obedience to the Church but the New Mass is damaging to the life of the Church and of the Faithful. Happily our current Pontiff has stated was has always been true, the traditional liturgy never was and never could be abrogated. He has cleared the way for its wider use. There are new translations coming for the New Mass which I think will at least help.

Pray. It’s a difficult time and I empathize with you entirely. I find myself longing for the days when the Church recognized her identity, when she made the truth known fearlessly and called all men to Christ; when she wasn’t so lax in her proscriptions and when the traditional Mass was available to all. Now in the name of charity heresies are allowed to run free and dissenting priests remain pastors of parishes. Personally I often feel like an outcast as one who holds to the traditional understanding of the Faith and who sees the superiority of the traditional Mass (a sediment which I think is growing among many in Rome and with many influential theologians). I find that I myself am often at odds with those who are considered orthodox but who love the New Mass and often also love more modern conceptions of what it means to be a Catholic believer.

Those are all the thoughts I can offer.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[ChadS]

I came into the Church expecting to see the reverence of Holy Mass…what I see is something sickeningly similar to a Methodist service.

I must disagree with your assesment of the Pauline mass. Our Mass clearly states that it is a sacrfice and at each and every Mass the priest celebrates Jesus Christ becomes truly present in the Eucharist on the altar.

Try finding that at a Methodist service.

ChadS

 

[strugglingalong]

I must disagree with your assesment of the Pauline mass. Our Mass clearly states that it is a sacrfice and at each and every Mass the priest celebrates Jesus Christ becomes truly present in the Eucharist on the altar.

Try finding that at a Methodist service.

ChadS

But the appearance of it is different. Even the words. It says maybe once or twice that it is a sacrifice but it doesn’t really emphasize that aspect. The traditional liturgy spoke of the sacrifice repeatedly and spoke of it being offered to the Father. At very least the sacrificial aspect is downplayed in the Pauline Mass. With the priest facing forward (not liturgical east), the intercessions with the people, and the watered down prayers it does appear more Protestant.

Here’s a quote I found at a traditional site:

"
Catholic churches often sing Protestant hymns. Also, the content has changed. I once made a comparison of the Tridentine Catholic Mass with the Novus Ordo Mass. I tallied the deletions from the Tridentine Catholic Mass of gestures and references to the real Presence of Christ’s Body and Blood and the allusions to the real sacrifice of the Cross that is truly realized in the Holy Mass. I found more than 50 deletions after I reckoned in the non-use of the Roman Canon, a prayer rich in references to the real Presence and Sacrifice. Priests nowadays usually skip the Roman Canon, having chosen a shorter one. This is an enormous “appeasement” (your word) to Protestant doctrine." (From traditioninaction.org/Questions/E020_NewMassNotProtestant.htm)

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

But the appearance of it is different. Even the words. It says maybe once or twice that it is a sacrifice but it doesn’t really emphasize that aspect. The traditional liturgy spoke of the sacrifice repeatedly and spoke of it being offered to the Father. At very least the sacrificial aspect is downplayed in the Pauline Mass. With the priest facing forward (not liturgical east), the intercessions with the people, and the watered down prayers it does appear more Protestant.

Here’s a quote I found at a traditional site:

"
Catholic churches often sing Protestant hymns. Also, the content has changed. I once made a comparison of the Tridentine Catholic Mass with the Novus Ordo Mass. I tallied the deletions from the Tridentine Catholic Mass of gestures and references to the real Presence of Christ’s Body and Blood and the allusions to the real sacrifice of the Cross that is truly realized in the Holy Mass. I found more than 50 deletions after I reckoned in the non-use of the Roman Canon, a prayer rich in references to the real Presence and Sacrifice. Priests nowadays usually skip the Roman Canon, having chosen a shorter one. This is an enormous “appeasement” (your word) to Protestant doctrine." (From traditioninaction.org/Questions/E020_NewMassNotProtestant.htm)

Pax Christi tecum.

EXACTLY!

 

[RyanML]

While the Mass of Paul VI is perfectly Catholic and beautifully expresses the faith when celebrated according to the mind of the Church, I must agree that in many cases, we find more Catholic expressions of worship in Methodist or Anglican churches than in many modern Catholic Churches. But it seems to me the pendulum is swinging. More and more churches are using latin and Gregorian Chant and many of the novelties and abuses of the 60’s and 70’s are becoming more rare. Summorum Pontificum has opened the door to bring back all of our liturgical traditions that should never have been discarded in the first place. But from personal experience I would caution those who find themselves leaning to the more traditional side. It’s wonderful, don’t get me wrong, but if you fall in with the wrong crowd, you’ll end up leaving the Church in the misguided pursuit of being “truely” Catholic. I’ve seen too many people start out just wanting a beautiful, reverent liturgy and in the end, they denied the validity of the New Rite and questioned the validity of all the popes from the time of Blessed John XXIII. Personally, I would go to protestantized Mass before going back to an SSPX chapel. For me, the latter is a greater danger to my faith. By the way I do not mean this towards any approved group within the Church, but even at those chapels you have to watch for the laity. I would LOVE it if latin were a requirement in certain parts of the Mass and i would be ecstatic if they brought the altar rails back and the priest went back to the altar ad orientum, and I do not think it’s wishful thinking to say that it might happen someday soon.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It is quite Protestant in many ways (see Card. Ottaviani’s arguments on this issue), which makes sense since Protestants were involved with the concilium.

**Please see Cardinal Ottaviani’s LATER words.

Read the entire site, but to get to Card. O’s words, read section III.

matt1618.freeyellow.com/novusordo.html**

<<The first thing to note that this criticism was leveled before the final version of the Pauline Rite Mass was completed. However, few of those in the schismatic circles who circulate the “Ottaviani Intervention” , publish Cardinal Ottaviani comments on the final version of the Pauline Rite Mass AFTER IT WAS OFFICIALLY PROMULGATED. Pope Paul VI gave two general audiences in regards to the Pauline Rite Mass. Cardinal Ottaviani responded to this by writing:

“I have REJOICED PROFOUNDLY to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and ESPECIALLY THE DOCTRINAL PRECISIONS CONTAINED IN HIS DISCOURSES at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26, after which I believe, NO ONE CAN ANY LONGER BE GENUINELY SCANDALIZED. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your ‘Doctrinal Note’ [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae WIDE DIFFUSION AND SUCCESS.” (Whitehead, 129, Letter from his eminence Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani to Dom Gerard Lafond, O.S.B., in Documentation Catholique, #67, 1970, pages 215-216 and 343)

Cardinal Ottaviani published later yet another very relevant public statement in which he said: “The Beauty of the Church is equally resplendent in the variety of the liturgical rites which enrich her divine cult-when they are legitimate and conform to the faith. Precisely the LEGITIMACY OF THEIR ORIGIN PROTECTS AND GUARDS THEM AGAINST INFILTRATION OF ERRORS. . . .The PURITY AND UNITY OF THE FAITH is in this manner also UPHELD BY THE SUPREME MAGISTERIUM OF THE POPE THROUGH THE LITURGICAL LAWS.”(In Cruzado Espanol, May 25, 197>>

 

[strugglingalong]

It is quite Protestant in many ways (see Card. Ottaviani’s arguments on this issue), which makes sense since Protestants were involved with the concilium.

**Please see Cardinal Ottaviani’s LATER words.

Read the entire site, but to get to Card. O’s words, read section III.
**

We’ve been over this time and again on here. No one can prove Card. Ottaviani did retract his statements and it is in fact surprising that if he did retract why Bugnini himself doesn’t note it in his own memoirs? Bugnini knew of Card. Ottaviani because he singles him out as one of the major dissenters against the New Mass in Bugnini’s own memoirs. One would think he’d also note that later Card. Ottaviani was reconciled to it. There is scant evidence that the retraction is genuine and in fact many believe it is not genuine at all.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[EasterJoy]

I can’t stand what I see as clear Protestant-like services. We have hymns I sung as a Baptist.

I came into the Church expecting to see the reverence of Holy Mass…what I see is something sickeningly similar to a Methodist service…

Relax. You are in a Catholic Church. There are no Bibles in the pews.

Seriously, though, I bet you see the same dress that drives the poor old ladies over at the Methodist church into cardiac arrest, too. I’ll bet you see behavior in restaurants that would not have been tolerated in your parents’ times, and clothing in department stores that would make your grandmother faint. You probably can’t watch what the networks have put into Ed Sullivan’s time slot.

It is not just that the Catholics have changed. Nearly everyone else has, too. Having said that, this is why the EF is being made more widely available: there are good Catholics who need it, and there is good reason to believe that any influence that carries from it to the OF will be a good one.

As long as the EF never becomes a bastion for the Sister-Bertha-Better-Than-You types, and assuming that it has the effects that the Holy Father reasonably hopes it will, I think the bishops will only make greater and greater efforts to widen its use.

In the meantime, look for a stable EF group in your area, and join them!

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Here’s what I got after mulling over it for a while:

I did not embrace my Catholic Christian identity because it was easy. No, I became Catholic because I wanted the Truth, and I found it only in the Catholic Church. I still remember when I went to my first real Mass. It was a Saturday morning in July, 2006. My spiritual father was serving as deacon and my pastor (who administered to me Confirmation and First Holy Communion) was the celebrant. In that liturgy my heart found Christ, yes even in that liturgy. For a whole year I loved Mass, without qualm. Why? Because I had found the true faith. I had found Christ in a way I never had before, and so nothing else mattered. Since that time I am ashamed to say that I think I am losing sight of this.

There are two key points that I cannot ever let go of. Should ever let go of either one of these truths, then there is nothing to live for. And each of these shed light on the situation.

1. No matter what happens, Christ is in charge of His Church.
2. No matter what happened, the Holy Spirit was at work in the Second Vatican Council.

Now with regard to the Liturgy, there comes a question that is inescapable: what are pretty liturgies to Christ?

“What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind? What then did you go out to see? Someone dressed in soft robes? Look, those who wear soft robes are in royal palaces. What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.” (Matthew 11:7-9)

The origin of aesthetically beautiful Masses and Liturgies originated with the explosion of Christian culture after St. Constantine the Great. The Church wanted to make her little services tantamount to Imperial pomp and circumstance with the objective that since Christ was King, He should be treated like the Emperor.

No, the earliest liturgies were incredibly simple as the Didache shows. The early Masses in Rome were almost identical to the current Pauline Mass and St. Justin Martyr’s description of the Mass does not look so much like the Divine Liturgy or the Tridentine Rite…it looks much, much more like the Mass of Paul VI.

So, I had to ask myself: what is the heart of Catholic Christianity. It simply could not have been the power of majestic liturgies…else we wouldn’t even have majestic liturgies. No, the heart was the Eucharistic Christ who empowered the Early Church to be a Church of mighty saints.

Also aesthetical beauty has limits to its power. The Eastern Orthodox have been doing the same Liturgy since the year 402 A.D. and possibly earlier. Yet despite the incredible power and majesty of the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Orthodox have become both partial schismatics and in some cases heretical (cf. contraception, divorce). Also we must look at the Tridentine rite in places like Africa and China. No matter how powerful it may have been aesthetically it probably had little effect on newly converted peoples from heathenism.

Also, despite my love of the old ways…I am NOT a judge of what is Holy Tradition. The Fathers of the Council and current Magisterium, including Arinze, have the authority to judge what is timeless and changeable in the realm of liturgy. I do not have this right, nor should I, as I know very little compared to them.

Lifteteen and the Charismatic renewal have had powerful effects on Catholics of all ages. I see this in the teens who I worship with on the Lord’s Day. Who am I to say that this is wrong? I am a son, and an unprofitable one at that. Sons must obey what their Father says and does, trusting that their Father knows what is best for His family. My Father has decided that Lifeteen and the Charismatic Renewal is not just acceptable, but also beneficial to the members of His family. And we say: “Yes, Abba.”

Now comes the big question: Why do I go to Mass? This question will lead to a deeper question:

What is the heart of Orthodox Catholic Christianity. When I ask this question, it is clear that things like Liturgy, ritual pomp, aesthetical beauty, and ossified views of Tradition are NOT the heart(s).

The heart is Jesus Christ.

I do not go to Mass to see pretty liturgies, or get the undeniable “high” of aesthetics…and if I do then I should be ashamed of myself…and looking back at recent days, I am a little ashamed.

To be a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ means a total giving of my whole life. This love of Liturgical pomp and this insensitivity to anything not like it, is something that must be handed over. He is in charge, and He is TRUSTWORTHY. Everything that has happened legitamately since Vatican II, even the approvals that I disagree with, have been HIS DOING.

And as one who claims Christ as Savior and Lord, I must follow where He leads.

So, the next time I feel myself “suffering” through Mass, then I need to humble my arrogant heart and recognize that the feeling I experience means that my focus is NOT on Christ, but on wordly things. The feeling means that I am getting wrapped up in externals. I need to learn to let go of these inhibitions and SURRENDER them to Christ. I need to embrace the things that may “hurt” and focus on the same Jesus who spurred the backwater churches of Early Christianity into being a church of saints: the Eucharistic Christ and Him alone.

As Christ would no doubt say to me:

“Antonius, Antonius…You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

-Antonius Ioannes

 

[RyanML]

To the charge that the New Rite, according to the liturgical decrees of Vatican II and the promulgation of the New Rite itself, is “protestant” my question would be “how?”. There is no doctrine that is denied or avoided to be more ecumenical. If there is then please inform me as I have yet to find it. I will agree that the number of doctrinal references has been reduced and one could make a case that this was not the best thing but that does not make it protestant. And as i said in my first post, there are certainly many Masses that could pass for protestant services but that is the fault of the priests, music ministers, so called liturgical experts and the like, not the fault of the Mass or the Church. I would encourage anyone interested to visit www.cantius.org to see what the New Rite of Mass should look like in every parish. God willing, maybe someday it will, along with the Traditional Rite.

 

[BSHoop96]

To my brethren who share my love of the “old ways.”

I am now lost. I am revert to the Catholic faith, coming from an evangelical background. I am currently going through a big struggle with the Pauline Mass. I can’t stand what I see as clear Protestant-like services. We have hymns I sung as a Baptist.

I came into the Church expecting to see the reverence of Holy Mass…what I see is something sickeningly similar to a Methodist service…But after realizing that Rome seems to have approved of things like the Charismatic Catholic renewal and Lifteen, I am truly afraid…I do not like the fact that Rome allows some Catholic liturgies to be done where the laity appear to be imitating evangelical worship styles: Clapping, hand raising, etc… I don’t know what to do anymore. My faith in Rome has been shaken after seeing the Pauline Mass in the shape it is in…
LORD HAVE MERCY!

-Antonius Ioannes +

While I am an OF rather than EF person I **totally sympathize **here. My suggestion…stay and get involved. Don’t clap, don’t raise your hands, and don’t hold hands at the Our Father if you really don’t want to. Be an example. With kindness of course. And while I do not like modern liturgical music I will say there are some old “protestant hymns” I do love.

 

[EasterJoy]

Here’s what I got after mulling over it for a while:

I did not embrace my Catholic Christian identity because it was easy. No, I became Catholic because I wanted the Truth, and I found it only in the Catholic Church. I still remember when I went to my first real Mass. It was a Saturday morning in July, 2006. My spiritual father was serving as deacon and my pastor (who administered to me Confirmation and First Holy Communion) was the celebrant. In that liturgy my heart found Christ, yes even in that liturgy. For a whole year I loved Mass, without qualm. Why? Because I had found the true faith. I had found Christ in a way I never had before, and so nothing else mattered. Since that time I am ashamed to say that I think I am losing sight of this…

So, the next time I feel myself “suffering” through Mass, then I need to humble my arrogant heart and recognize that the feeling I experience means that my focus is NOT on Christ, but on wordly things. The feeling means that I am getting wrapped up in externals. I need to learn to let go of these inhibitions and SURRENDER them to Christ. I need to embrace the things that may “hurt” and focus on the same Jesus who spurred the backwater churches of Early Christianity into being a church of saints: the Eucharistic Christ and Him alone.

As Christ would no doubt say to me:

“Antonius, Antonius…You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

-Antonius Ioannes

Maybe you’ve gone from being a little hard on the Church to being a little hard on yourself?

There is a place for ritual solemnity, and there is nothing shameful in desiring a liturgy that is more prayerful or aesthetically pleasing. Do not berate yourself for wanting a reverent Mass, full of unmistakeably Catholic music, and so on. These are good gifts from God, and there is nothing wrong with wanting them.

In reading your second “mulling”, though, I am reminded of St. Therese of Liseux. One of the sisters had the habit of rattling her rosary in chapel, which St. Therese found extremely distracting. Although the prayer of quiet which she desired was rendered impossible, she turned her attention to making that little sound a part of her prayer. As you imply, she was grateful and prayerful in the actual circumstances she got, rather than wasting the time with the Lord that she had in complaining or resentment. On that count, I could not agree with you more.

 

[strugglingalong]

But Antonius I would add that we don’t need to merely humble ourselves and say, “Well this is what God wants.” Not every decision is what God wants. The Pope can promulgate a liturgy that is not the best for the Church. See Alcuin Reid on that issue. He’s got a very good book on the organic development of liturgy where he discusses it.

Pax Christi tecum.