Trump tries to smear Martin Gugino, Catholic Peace Activist

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VonDerTann said:
This is all just Monday morning quarterbacking - which is bad enough. Now you’re opining about the police’s training, surely without knowledge of what & how they were trained.
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Somebody failed in that chain of command. I don’t know who. But I recognize a failure when I see it. Apparently so do many others.
 
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neophyte said:
In this case those officers did exactly what they should have when they waited for someone with proper training to take care of him.
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I think you are wrong. Even if the officers are moving people back (which is questionable), officers do not leave a person prone on the sidewalk with blood leaking out of the person’s head. If it had been an officer, none would criticize them for stopping. Simple humanity demands that a sworn officer stop to help an injured individual.

Police protest control is not a Napoleonic army marching lockstep in a hollow square.
 
Nepperhan said:
I think you are wrong. Even if the officers are moving people back (which is questionable), officers do not leave a person prone on the sidewalk with blood leaking out of the person’s head.
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That’s not at all what happened. Not even close.
 
The point is:
Yes the man deserves respect.
Yes he was hurt.
Yes the police could have used more restraint.

The point is: his own common sense could have avoided this.
He personally confronted an armed column who’s purpose was to clear an area. That is not a recipe for a peaceful outing.

This is not an occasion for martyrdom and outrage.
 
The reality is you don’t know what training the officers received.

That’s highly relevant because lots of folks want to scream “the officers shouldn’t have done X!” but they invariably are opining as they would themselves act, without knowing what the officers have been trained to do,
AND with benefit of hindsight and not in the heat of the moment.

Many police departments disallow the “knee to neck” move Derek Chauvin used - but Minneapolis PD allowed its use and sanctioned it. That will IMHO be a problem for the prosecution in Chauvins eventual trial. Why? Chauvin likely acted as he was taught to act.

So unless someone can, say, cite to a training manual for exactly what Buffalo PD did wrong, this thread is largely just so much wind from random people lacking any detailed knowledge of how these police were supposed to act.
 
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Nepperhan said:
Police protest control is not a Napoleonic army marching lockstep in a hollow square.
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Please elaborate on this. From what little I know, that is exactly how they should be when confronting a mass of people when they are outnumbered and heavily restricted in what actions they can take.
 
Take a look at how many police officers have been murdered recently, and tell us that they ought to chill out when they are confronted by someone when they are in formation.
 
VonDerTann said:
Not true. The police were under orders to clear the square, and they were confronted with a man who accosted them and who was obviously doing something overtly hostile: photographing them; or using a scanner.

Police rarely have the luxury of doing what posters here do all the time, namely, endlessly debating, over their computers as they sip coffee, the finer points of what should be done in harsh and hostile circumstances the people here will never face.
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Taking a photograph is NOT of itself hostile and.by itself should not.be a problem - unless, of course, police are doing inappropriate things that they don’t want photographed. Same.with filming of having or using a phone.
 
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VonDerTann said:
The reality is you don’t know what training the officers received.

That’s highly relevant because lots of folks want to scream “the officers shouldn’t have done X!” but they invariably are opining as they would themselves act, without knowing what the officers have been trained to do,
AND with benefit of hindsight and not in the heat of the moment.

Many police departments disallow the “knee to neck” move Derek Chauvin used - but Minneapolis PD allowed its use and sanctioned it. That will IMHO be a problem for the prosecution in Chauvins eventual trial. Why? Chauvin likely acted as he was taught to act.

So unless someone can, say, cite to a training manual for exactly what Buffalo PD did wrong, this thread is largely just so much wind from random people lacking any detailed knowledge of how these police were supposed to act.
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‘I was just following orders’ is not good enough, nor should it be. Sometimes the orders or training are so problematic that any right thinking person should question them. If memory serves some of Chauvins colleagues did.
 
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Taking a photo certainly can be hostile in and of itself but, as the video above shows, the concern was that the agitator was scanning or jamming police communications, or maybe even reaching for the officer’s gun.
 
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This is NOT a case of “just following orders.” Rather it’s following training in how to respond. There is a very distinct difference. No one can say these officers responded incorrectly without stating exactly what they were trained aka expected to do. Everything else is just people giving uneducated opinions unburdened by facts.
 
blackforest said:
Some of the rhetoric in this thread reminds me telling rape victims that they “had it coming.”
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If it was a pro-life protester in an anti-abortion rally that was treated the same way by cops, would the rhetoric be the same?

Will the pro-lifer have it coming too?
 
VonDerTann said:
This is NOT a case of “just following orders.” Rather it’s following training in how to respond. There is a very distinct difference. No one can say these officers responded incorrectly without stating exactly what they were trained aka expected to do. Everything else is just people giving uneducated opinions unburdened by facts.
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I have to disagree strongly.

If your training is that it is appropriate to put your knee on the neck of someone.who is compliant and not resisting, under any circumstances, the training is the problem and not a justification.

If your training is that it is fine to keep your knee on that person’s neck while they AND everyone around them are repeatedly telling you they can’t breathe and they end up dying, then the training is the problem.and.not a justification.

There has to be room for both common sense and proportionality in policing, and if George Floyd’s case is an example of ‘training’ then that training seems to have achieved nothing except removing all common sense and all proportionality out of the response of that police officer.
 
VonDerTann said:
Taking a photo certainly can be hostile in and of itself but, as the video above shows, the concern was that the agitator was scanning or jamming police communications, or maybe even reaching for the officer’s gun.
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How on earth is taking a photograph hostile? A camera is not a weapon! Nor is a photograph threatening in any way.
 
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VonDerTann said:
Everything else is just people giving uneducated opinions unburdened by facts.
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So we should just sit quietly by and allow police brutality to take place?

We know what we saw.

Brutality is brutality no matter how “good” the reason.

We, the public, pay their salaries. They are not our lords and masters. We should call for an explanation of their actions.

They should answer for what they do and if they have a good reason, then they should give it.
 
Antifa thugs and various agitators are always taking pictures of officers, whether to doxx them or for other nefarious purposes (such as to assault them on camera; film the police response; the edit out the attack and scream “brutality!”

If you watched looters on TV, what did essentially all of them have? Their phones out, recording.
 
LilyM said:
If your training is that it is appropriate to put your knee on the neck of someone.who is compliant and not resisting, under any circumstances, the training is the problem and not a justification.
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I think you’re replying in the wrong thread. The man was pushed and fell. Nobody kneeled on his neck.
 
VonDerTann said:
Antifa thugs and various agitators are always taking pictures of officers, whether to doxx them or for other nefarious purposes (such as to assault them on camera; film the police response; the edit out the attack and scream “brutality!”

If you watched looters on TV, what did essentially all of them have? Their phones out, recording.
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If police have (which they always should in a protest/riot situation) body cameras switched on, then it is easy enough to debunk doctored/partial footage. I work with criminal lawyers and see it happen all the time.
 
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