Trump tries to smear Martin Gugino, Catholic Peace Activist

[Nepperhan]

I just really really want to know how a policeman “holds the line,” or is supposed to “chill out” when a Molotov cocktail is tossed at him/her. I don’t even know what “hold the line” even means.

Well, you see I was asked if a policeman should do x. Then you pretty much demand that I define x and say how it applies to extreme circumstances. I just had replied that yes, a policeman ought to do x. If you did not have a good handle on what x meant then I don’t know why you asked me if a policeman should do x. Your inquiry sounds facetious.

 

[VonDerTann]

It’s most definitely bona fide.

Look, one of the questions I’m trying to lead up to is this: are there ever circumstances where the police can lawfully shoot protesters?

I’d say absolutely yes, particularly if lethal force is about to be used on them.

Would you agree? See my bona fides now?

 

[Nepperhan]

See my bona fides now?

A rhetorical question does not need a response.

Would there ever be such an occasion? Of course.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

THANK YOU! I keep seeing this “pro-life” nonsense about him, but he’s not. He’s whatever will pander to his base or be politically expedient in a given moment. And I do mean moment, no person in the oval office has ever acted with such rashness.

The Pro-Life movement among others got on board with 45 and made a literal deal with the devil.

I am getting so much push back on this forum for stating his support for unborn babies does not extend to the most vulnerable. If we as Catholics started to raise this voice as one, instead of the halo polishing patsmon the back for other ‘accomplishments’ and showed him these babies need him to go the extra mile on this,

Would he listen? Would he act?
We are Catholics, we are the voice of those who do not have a voice, time to use it.

 

[petra22]

I resent this bolded part of your statement…

Do CAF Catholics actually take their Church teaching seriously?

I would say yes, generally speaking.

Do they apply it to US politics (outside the abortion-in-law issue)?

Generally no, unless doing so advances their political argument (sadly).
**

**

Since you don’t know me and you are making broad assumptions about CAF Catholics, possibly just because they don’t see things the way you do…

 

[petra22]

The Pro-Life movement among others got on board with 45 and made a literal deal with the devil.

Don’t you mean made a deal with God who said Thou shall not kill? Be honest… And even the US constitution reveals our human rights… the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do other countries have these rights? Just wondering… I haven’t studied other countries’ constitutions…

 

[RobertAdams]

“these animals”

I see you. And disapprove.

To everyone else, yeah, I think the elderly should be treated more gently, not roughed up, not pushed down, and certainly picked up if they fall.

I am aware though (and I am guessing most everyone else is too) that a long standing protest culture exists among catholic workerish catholic activists who intentionally try to initiate encounters with the authorities in order to be taken away. So while I hardly think he’s a terrorist or dangerous radical, and think what Trump said is wrong, it’s not out of bounds to notice that he’s not necessarily within the “norm” for elderly marchers either.

 

[VonDerTann]

I chose my words deliberately and I said what I said for a reason. The following actions were on full display for all the world to see all across US cities last week:

–People spitting at, swearing at, and hurling bricks and bottles at police;

–People burning down and befouling their own neighborhoods;

–People looting and stealing, including everything from liquor and sneakers to every Rolex at Rolex’s flagship New York City store, $2.4 million worth.

–Murders and attempted murders, including at least 2 separate Molotov cocktail attacks and another attack on police in New York City yesterday called an “assassination attempt.”

…and you say you “see me?” And you “disapprove” of my word choice?

 

[Randolph]

As I have commented before as a non-believer I am always astounded at how threads on CAF dealing with US politics seems to go on forever with no one ever mentioning relevant Catholic teaching. Do CAF Catholics actually take their Church teaching seriously? Do they apply it to US politics (outside the abortion-in-law issue)?

It’s quite rich for you—a self described non-believer—to lecture what Catholics should/not do. So far, on this thread, people from many sides have voiced their ideas and opinions. Facts in this case are still being uncovered and revealed. People are genuinely trying to debate facts and catholic principles and teachings. This is not a matter of doctrines or dogmas. It probably will never reach a point where the Church will have to step in and declare it.

In the meantime, exercise some decency and refrain yourself from mocking members on this forum for not living up to their catholic faith.

 

[blackforest]

It doesn’t matter what intentions you speculate on - people have every right to record the police. And thank God for that. Without this ability and technology, we may have never known the truth about George Floyd.

To be honest, I thought that choke holds had been prohibited years ago.

Alas, no. https://time.com/5849144/minneapolis-bans-police-chokeholds/

Don’t answer for him/her, please, and stop trying to redirect me away from legitimate questions.

This is a public forum, and you’re publicly accountable for what you post. Your comments are fair game. If you want an exclusive conversation with him/her, move it to private messaging. Also, I’m not answering for anyone - just calling you out for deflecting from the thread topic by bringing up bombs and bullets, something Martin Gugino wasn’t even close to doing.

Could you please explain exactly how a police officer is supposed to “chill out” when shot at?

When a gasoline bomb is thrown at their vehicle?

When a brick is hurled at them?

 

[StudentMI]

Also, I’m not answering for anyone - just calling you out for deflecting from the thread topic by bringing up bombs and bullets, something Martin Gugino wasn’t even close to doing.

He’s giving context for why police aren’t exactly calm right now at protests. You know that.

 

[VonDerTann]

Interesting that my comments are “fair game” for you…but when I ask questions you (and he) can’t answer, that’s me “deflecting the thread.”

For that matter, he never did answer them, because he manifestly couldn’t. How can a police officer “chill out” when attacked by bullets or gasoline bombs? They can’t. His answers stopped, and he began accusing me of facetiousness, because I probed him in a direction that was exposing his statements as unhelpful.

For what it’s worth, any lawyers in the peanut gallery saw exactly what I was doing: Employing a law school questioning tactic called the “socratic method” of asking questions as a means of making a point: Which I did, namely, no one can “chill out” in the face of such conduct.

Finally he admitted that police can in fact shoot rioters under some circumstances - which is most assuredly not “chilling out.”

 

[FiveLinden]

It’s quite rich for you—a self described non-believer—to lecture what Catholics should/not do. So far, on this thread, people from many sides have voiced their ideas and opinions. Facts in this case are still being uncovered and revealed. People are genuinely trying to debate facts and catholic principles and teachings. This is not a matter of doctrines or dogmas. It probably will never reach a point where the Church will have to step in and declare it.

In the meantime, exercise some decency and refrain yourself from mocking members on this forum for not living up to their catholic faith

I am not mocking, nor am I saying what people ought to do. I am asking why they do not apply Catholic teaching as often as I think would be expected in matters of US politics. I have no opinion one way or the other about what Catholics should do. But I am interested in what they do.

 

[Randolph]

Do CAF Catholics actually take their Church teaching seriously? Do they apply it to US politics (outside the abortion-in-law issue)?

Members and participants at CAF do take the teachings of the Catholic Church seriously. The many topics and threads should easily prove this point. I have run across many good, knowledgeable and intelligent Catholics on this very forum, and I have learned a lot from them.

Catholics do have differences in opinions regarding politics, economics, social issues, etc… The Church does allow room for disagreements.

 

[LilyM]

Could you please explain exactly how a police officer is supposed to “chill out” when shot at?

When a gasoline bomb is thrown at their vehicle?

When a brick is hurled at them?

Seriously, to you…what does “chill out” mean, exactly? Can they draw their weapon? Can they say “hey you! Please don’t do that again!” Can they duck? Must the police run away?

Can the police permissibly return fire? In your world…does a police officer actually need a gun? I mean, they’re supposed to chill out when shot at, so why carry a gun at all?

How about YOU, a non-police officer? Could YOU allowably do those things? What exactly would you do if so targeted?

Just trying to understand what “chilling out” means…

Sorry? As far as I am aware, neither Mr Gugino nor anyone in his vicinity was shooting at police, throwing gasoline bombs at them or hurling bricks at them, nor showing any signs of doing so. Unless you can show me evidence that they were, I would have to say that is an especially poor argument in this instance.

By the way, even an armed response can happen in a calm, thoughtful and rational.way.

You know there ARE police forces that are largely unarmed - UK and Australia among them. They seem to do at least as good a job of fighting crime in general and riots in particular, including facing armed criminals, as American police officers.

And yes, police, like soldiers, can expect as part of the job to be sometimes in situations where their lives are endangered. There are psychological techniques that they can use to learn to stay calm.in such situations.

Like soldiers, they cannot afford to be anything less than calm.and rational (which is how I would define “chill”) under pressure, even presuure of bullets,.bricks and Molotov cocktails being lobbed their way.

A policeman who cannot handle such things is as poorly suited to his or her job as a doctor who faints at the sight of blood or a trial lawyer who is deathly afraid to stand up and speak in court.

 

[twf]

I would think these descriptions could apply to many of his tweets… and I say objectively, without implying I know his personal culpability.

 

[pnewton]

–No, police didn’t “start this.” Really, George Floyd “started this” by being a career criminal who had multiple arrests and who had done hard time;

Yea? And rape victims are “asking for it.” At the time he was murdered, George Floyd was not even charged, much less convicted, of the crime involving the $20 bill. Likewise, the police that pushed this man to the ground causing tramauntic head injury had no reason to suspect the man of any crime. How can you, as a lawyer, forget the most basic legal tenet that one is not guilty of a crime until convicted, or that past crimes do not justify arrest?

–Interesting that to you, it’s somehow legitimate for people to throw bricks at police and burn down their precinct house, but if the police - who are spit one; cursed out, and repeatedly provoked - shoot these animals

Likewise, how do you hold out the crimes of others as justification for police action taken against a third party?

Prosecuter: The defendant is clearly from Milwaukee, home of Jeffrey Dahmer and as such, we cannot allow these cannibals to roam free!

Defendant: I am just here for running a red light.

 

[commenter]

I don’t think anyone who has been injured or killed in the course of the protests is lacking for love and respect, though some people may just not know about every incident. The man who shot that officer is in custody, rightly charged with attempted murder among other things, and it is unclear whether he was actually part of the protest.

Catholic and Protestant clergy have been competing to honor and be honored by demonstrators, but police have no backup from the churches.
No pope or bishop seems willing to call out anti police officer violence as the hate crime it is now.

The media presents the “Protest” as one distinct event, with one group of (highly respectable) people…
Compared to the totally separate un related event (riot and looters) which happens to take place immediately after, in the same location.

Every action by a police officer anywhere is labeled part of a pattern “systemic”. Every verbal or physical violence against a police officer is an "isolated " action, whether it be online attacks by a Gugino, or physical, like the woman who ran over a few police in Buffalo.

Her family is claiming she is held as a Political Prisoner. I bet she will get eventually convicted of a minor traffic offense.

The implied threat is “more police will get hurt, more riots, unless we get more money for our programs”.

 

[Donkey]

You are being redirected...

It looks like Gugino is elderly with balancing issues. I can’t imagine being as defiant as he was. His actions were in defiance of the law and abusive to the cops…provoking action by poking at the officer with his cell phone. Bad bad behavior Gugino.

 

[pnewton]

But common sense?

He was probably under the misconception that the police had a modicum of common sense and/or humanity. This type of incident is why there is a clamor to demilitarize the police. They put on a vest, grab a shield, then forget that they are police and supposed to protect and serve citizens.

My priest put out a letter that he made a donation to Casa Juan Diego in the name of Martin Gugino, as it is a local organization associated with the Catholic Workers Movement.