Truth about the Talmud

[jgmes2001]

I have noticed many people on this board claiming that the Talmud says evil things about Jesus. Now, I am by no means an expert on the subject (I’ve never even placed eyes upon the Talmud) but I have read works by others who have, particularly this one: angelfire.com/mt/talmud who make a good argument that in fact Jesus is not even referenced once in the Talmud.

(Note: this link may not be the best one, as the author as a Jew does have some problems with the idea of Jesus Christ, but his argument that Jesus does not appear in the Talmud are still valid, I believe).

 

[Valke2]

The belief that Jesus is referenced in the Talmud goes something like this. Out of fear of angering Christians, the name of Jesus was changed in the Talmud, and some of the historical facts intentionally changed.

But as I’ve said before, even if one were to believe every word in the Talmud that has at one time been viewed as discussing Jesus, it would take up less than two or three pages in a multi-volume work.

To say that the Talmud is not concerned with the story of Jesus would be a great understatement.

The link you provided is a pretty good one, IMO. I wish I saw it when I was responding to some nonsense about the Talmud saying Jesus had sex with a donkey (the Balaam quote).

 

[pprimeau1976]

Interesting. I have heard of such claims but thought nothing of it. I often use the Talmud as a way of asking people who claim that Jesus was fictional why he was mentioned at all in the Talmud. My reasoning always is that If Jesus was a fictional character, why wouldn’t the Talmud and Jews for that matter just say so?

BTW, Is there any truth to the Talmud saying that the scarlet thread remained scarlet on Yom Kippur for 40 years prior to the Temple’s Destruction and did not turn white?

 

[Valke2]

Interesting. I have heard of such claims but thought nothing of it. I often use the Talmud as a way of asking people who claim that Jesus was fictional why he was mentioned at all in the Talmud. My reasoning always is that If Jesus was a fictional character, why wouldn’t the Talmud and Jews for that matter just say so?

BTW, Is there any truth to the Talmud saying that the scarlet thread remained scarlet on Yom Kippur for 40 years prior to the Temple’s Destruction and did not turn white?

My opinion is that there are indeed references to Jesus in the Talmud and that it is pretty obvious he existed. I did some brief research on the scarlet thread thing. This seems to be a favorite topic for messianic jews and christians, but there’s not much I’ve been able tofind from traditional jewish sites. I’ll keep looking. The short answer is that it does appear in the Talmud. The long answer is a bit more interesting. I’ll get to you.

 

[pprimeau1976]

My opinion is that there are indeed references to Jesus in the Talmud and that it is pretty obvious he existed. I did some brief research on the scarlet thread thing. This seems to be a favorite topic for messianic jews and christians, but there’s not much I’ve been able tofind from traditional jewish sites. I’ll keep looking. The short answer is that it does appear in the Talmud. The long answer is a bit more interesting. I’ll get to you.

Thanks. I read about it in Roy Schoemann’s book, Salvation is From the Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Ok. Here’s what I’ve found out. It was a bit odd to wade through a bunch of messianic and christian websites that was truing to prove Jesus was the Messiah by quoting Talmud! I always thought such people/websites dismissed our Talmud/Oral law as being a mere work of man.

Now on to the main course.

Tractate Yoma in the Talmud deals with Yom Kippur. Yoma 39b (there is always an “a” and “b” for each folio/page in the Talmud. “a” is the front page and “b” would be the back of the page). quotes a Baraista (a later commentary on the Talmud), which discusses a bunch of miracles that occurred in the Temple during Yom Kippur. It does state here that there was a strip of scarlet-dyed wool tied to the head of the scapegoat which would turn white in the presence of the large crowd gathered at the Temple on the Day of Atonement. We preceived this as a sign that the sins of the community were forgiven.

The Talmud does in fact state that the wool didn’t turn white 40 years before the Temple’s destruction. Here’s what it says:

The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the high priest’s right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white . . . ."

Missionaries say that this started the year Jesus was crucified, 30 CE. They believe that the wool things is proof of God abolishing animal sacricices and that the only way to atone for sin would be to ask Jesus for forgivness.In other words, since animal sacrifices could not attone for sins, the wool not turning white proved our sins were not forgiven, I guess because we reject(ed) Jesus as God.

Such an explanation makes little sense from a Jewish perspective. And since this argument relies on a central Jewish text that is more difficult to understand than a Joseph Conrad noveal, it really should be viewed from a Jewish perspective.

On that basis alone, it is a huge leap to say that the Reason the thread didn’t change colors is because of Jesus. Such an argument takes a christian belief and attaches it to a Jewish text. It would be just as valid, for example, to argue that the reason the scarlet strip of wool did not turn white was due to the fact that masses of wayward Jews had followed the false messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. The logic works for both answers (as pointed out in the Outreach Judaism website. This second explanation has the advantage of being consistent with the rest of the Talmud. But, both explanations are incorrect.

Antoher thing to consider. IF animal sacrifices are no longer needed, then why are they going to return when the Temple is rebuilt? The book of Exiekal would be about 9 chapters shorter if this were not the case. Now I can see how such an argument would be refuted by Christians, based on their own dogma and doctrine. But I don’t see how Messianic Jews get around this.

Next post will explain what the Talmud is talking about. (hopefully)

 

[Valke2]

(cont).

Tractate Yoma is only concerned with laws pertaining to Yom Kippur. Page 39a is talking abou the decline of Israel’s spiritual condition during the Second Temple period. Things like the thread changing color are an indicator of the spritual condition. When it’s good, miracles happen (red to white). When it’s not so good, then red to… red. Kind of like Bush’s terror alert. This time period is broken into two periods of time, the earlier being when Israel was more meritorious (and we went downhill from there).

The discussion starts with the miraculous events that repeatedly occurred during the forty years when Shimon HaTzaddik officiated as high priest (the good times). The Baraisa then continues to relate how the appearance of these miracles progressively diminished in the years that followed his death. These events are as follows:

1. The lot inscribed “LaHashem,” would always appear in the right hand of the high priest6 during the Yom Kippur service.
2. The strip of scarlet-dyed wool which was tied to the head of the scapegoat always turned white during the Yom Kippur service.
3. The western-most lamp of the Temple menorah remained lit until the priest would use its fire to kindle the next day’s lamps.
4. The pyre on the altar did not require any additional wood to sustain a strong fire.
5. There was a blessing upon the first fruits of the Omer, the two loaves offered on Shevuoth, and on the loaves of the showbread so that each priest was satisfied with a portion no larger than the size of an olive.

We have to remember that Shimon HaTzaddik was a mensche’s mensch. He’s the guy who said: “The world exists on three things: the Torah, divine worship, and acts of kindness.” His extraordinary character affected the people deeply, and this manifested itself with a host of miraculous phenomena in the Temple, the House of Shimon’s dedication.

After he died, we were unable to remain at the spiritual heights which they we achieved during Shimon HaTzaddik’s lifetime. The Baraisa therefore relates that after the death of Shimon HaTzaddik the occurrence of these miracles became sporadic; there were some years when these miraculous signs occurred, and there were other years when they did not. This spiritual decay plunged to its lowest point during the last 40 years of the second Temple period. The Baraisa records that none of the above miracles occurred during these last four decades of the second Temple.

Fortunately, we don’t need to guess as to what we Jews did during those last 40 years that stopped the events altogether. They are set forth in the Talmud.

Keeping in mind that the events did not just stop immeidately in 30CE, but rather graudually lessened after Shimon’s death. the big sin of Israel was hatred for each other. which we believe was the reason for the Second Temple’s desturction. There was an increase of violence against each other. The Sanhedrin didn’t even bother to impose capital punishment for murder because it was so prevelant.

unfortuantely, the cessation of this miracle is tied to the fact that Jews turned against each other in great numbers during htis time.

Finally, what is the meaning behind this mysterious ritual of tying a scarlet ribbon to the head of the scapegoat with the hopeful anticipation that it would miraculously turn white? Why was the wool of the ribbon dyed scarlet? Why didn’t they color it blue or green? Why would it turn white? Moreover, how could the nation know that the marvelous transformation from scarlet to white was a clear indication that their sins had been forgiven? In essence, how do the colors scarlet and white relate to social justice and brotherly kindliness? What is the connection?

Social Jusitce is a biggie in Judaism. Oppressing the poor and doing violence to the weak is frowned upon. It is enough to warrant the destruction of our Temple. It’s not just here that we see this. Isaiah compares Israel to the people to Sodom and Gomorrah. He says if you are going to treat your neighbor so poorly, then God’s not interested in how you keep the Sabbath. You can’t keep a Sabbath holy if you’re going to treat people like garbage. That’s a central message of Isaiah and that’s the central reason why the miracles in the Temple ceased.

So how do we address this?:

“Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord, “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land.”

The miracle of the scarlet ribbbon was tied into kindness to others, not blood atonement.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I have noticed many people on this board claiming that the Talmud says evil things about Jesus. Now, I am by no means an expert on the subject (I’ve never even placed eyes upon the Talmud) but I have read works by others who have, particularly this one: …

Here is the talmud online, take the time to look up the following,
come-and-hear.com/talmud/

**Ben Pandera **

“The Talmud refers to Jesus several places, typically as ‘Ben Pandera’, where Pandera is sometimes taken to be the name of a Roman soldier who was Jesus’ illegitimate father. It may also be a play on words, since the Greek word for virgin is ‘parthenos’.”
- McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict

“The story of Mary’s seduction by Pandera was in circulation around 150 C.E., when it was cited by Celasus [Origen (ca. AD 185-254), Contra Celsum]; and the Toldot Yeshu was quoted by Tertullian in 198 C.E. Almost certainly its author did not intend his work to be taken seriously, but was rather riduculing Matthew by writing a parody. Nothing else could explain his making Jesus huios pantherou (son of a panther), a transparent pun on huios parthenou (son of a virgin).”
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

Biblical scholar Morton Smith disagrees that Pandera was based on a pun.

The word parthenos “depends on a Greek translation of Isaiah 7.14; it cannot be derived from the Hebrew with which the rabbis were more familiar. Jesus is never referred to as ‘the son of the virgin’ in the Christian material preserved from the first century of the Church (30-130), nor in the second -century apologists. To suppose the name Pantera appeared as a caricature of a title not yet in use is less plausible than to suppose it [was] handed down by polemic tradition.”
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 61

The name Pandera, Pantera or Panthera “is an unusual one, and was thought to be an invention until [a] first century tombstone came to light in Bingerbrück, Germany. The inscription reads: ‘Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera of Sidon, aged 62, a soldier of 40 years’ service, of the 1st cohort of archers, lies here’.”
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence

“…Panthera was a common name in the first two centuries of the Christian era, notably as a surname of Roman soldiers…There is no proof that Jesus was referred to by the title bo buios tes parthenous ‘son of the virgin’] this early on. It is possible, though, that the accidental similarity of the Infancy Narratives’ parthenos to ‘Panthera’ …caused ‘Panthera’ to be picked as the name of the adulterer, once the theme of an adulterous soldier arose in the tradition.”
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

“Eusebius, about 300, tried to explain ‘their’ [the Jews] Panthera story as a misunderstanding of scripture, and Epiphanius, a century later, actually gave Panther a legitimate place in the Holy Family - he became the Savior’s ‘paternal’ grandfather! Later Christian writers found other places for him in the same genealogy.”
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 80

…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I have noticed many people on this board claiming that the Talmud says evil things about Jesus. Now, I am by no means an expert on the subject (I’ve never even placed eyes upon the Talmud) but I have read works by others who have, particularly this one: …

Here is the talmud online, take the time to look up the following,
come-and-hear.com/talmud/

Ben Stada, Born of an Adulteress?

“Jesus said, ‘Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore.’”
- Gospel of Thomas 105

“I found a genealogical roll in Jerusalem wherein was recorded, Such-an-one is a bastard of an adulteress.”
- R. Shimeon ben Azzai (ca. 100 C.E.)

“Current editions of the Mishnah [the ‘oral’ traditions of the rabbis in the Talmud] add: ‘To support the words of R. Yehoshua’ (who in the same Mishnah, says: What is a bastard? Everyone whose parents are liable to death by the Beth Din).’ That Jesus is here referred to seems to be beyond doubt…”
- Joseph Klausner, “Jesus of Nazareth”

“Gustav Dalman objects that the whole context is simply a debate over the correct definition of ‘bastard’, with various opinions appealing to various passages in the OT.”
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

“‘But is it not [the case that] Ben Stada brought magic spells from Egypt in the scratches on his flesh?’ They said to him, ‘He was a madman and you cannot base laws on [that action of ] madmen.’ Was he then the son of Stada? Surely he was the son of Pandira? Rabbi Hisda [a third-century Babylonian] said, ‘The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira.’ [But was not] the husband Pappos ben Judah? His mother was Stada. [But was not] his mother Miriam (Mary) the hairdresser? [Yes, but she was nicknamed Stada] - as we say in Pumbeditha, ‘s’tat da (i.e., this one has turned away] from her husband’.”
- Rabbi Eliezer

“The original Ben Stada seems to have been a Jew who advocated some cult involving the worship of deities other than Yahweh. He was entrapped by Jews in Lydda, condemned by a rabbinic court, and stoned. Since Jesus also was accused of introducing the worship of other gods - notably himself - he was nicknamed Ben Stada.”
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) p. 62

“The Tosefta mentions a famous case of a woman named Miriam bat Bilgah marrying a Roman soldier. The idea that Yeishu had been born to a Jewish woman who had had an affair with a Roman soldier probably resulted in Yeishu’s mother being confused with this Miriam. The name ‘Miriam’ is of course the original form of the name ‘Mary.’ It is in fact known from the Gemara that some of the people who confused Yeishu with ben Stada believed that Yeishu’s mother was ‘Miriam the women’s hairdresser’.”
- Hayyim ben Yehoshua, “Refuting Missionaries, Part 1: The Myth of the Historical Jesus”

Hanged as a Sorceror

“…Rabbi Joshua was reciting the Shema when Jesus came before him. He intended to receive him and made a sign to him. He [Jesus] thing that it was to repel him, when, put up a brick and worshipped it. ‘Repent’, said Rabbi Joshua to Jesus.
Jesus replied, ‘I have learned this from you: He who sins and causes others to sin is not afforded the means of repentance’.
And a Rabbi has said, ‘Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and led Israel astray.’”
- Babylonian Sanhedrin 107b

The Talmudhas “accounts of Jesus ben Pandira, who was tricked into trial, then executed as a sorcerer and blasphemer during the days of Roman occupation of Jerusalem (Sanhedrin 67 a.and Shabbath 104 b.)…”
- Discussion about Hyam Maccoby’s Revolution in Judea (NETCOM)

“On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover.”
- Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a. Yeb. IV 3; 49a:

(Note that “hanged” here means "hanged on a cross " - crucified.)

This account “agrees with the whole tendency of ancient Jewish sources, which do not deny the existence and execution of Jesus. Indeed, not even the miracles of Jesus are denied, but are rather interpreted as acts of sorcery. The reference to the herald seeking out defense witnesses for forty days may be an apologetic thrust against the canonical Gospels’ depiction of arrest, trial, and execution, all in one twenty-four-hour period.”
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/sources.html

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I still suspect that Mary is granddaughter of Antony and Cleopatra.

Mark Antony was a Roman politician and general.

With this military purpose on his mind, Antony sailed to Greece with his new wife, where he behaved in a most extravagant manner, assuming the attributes of the god Dionysus (39 BC).

Dionysus is often shown riding a leopard, wearing a leopard skin, or in a chariot drawn by panthers…

The queen of Egypt lent him the money he needed for the army, and after capturing Jerusalem and surrounding areas in 37 BC, he put in Herod the Great as puppet king of Judaea.

31 BC — Judea suffers a devastating earthquake. Octavian defeats Mark Antony, so Herod switches allegiance to Octavian, later known as Augustus.

---

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jesus in the Talmud (Hardcover)
by Peter Schafer (Author)

Jesus in the Talmud: His Personality, His Disciples and His Sayings (Paperback)
by Bernhard Pick (Author)

The Jews And Their Lies (Paperback)
by Martin Luther (Author)
humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (Paperback)
by R. Travers Herford (Author)

Jesus Christ in the Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, and the liturgy of the synagogue.
Author: Dalman, Gustaf, 1855-1941, comp.

Jesus in the Mishnah and Talmud /
Robert A Morey

Rabbinic literature & the New Testament :
what we cannot show, we do not know /
Jacob Neusner

The Talmud unmasked :
the secret rabbinical teachings concerning Christians /
I B Pranaitis; E N Sanctuary

Jesus Christ in the Talmud /
Gustaf Dalman; Randolph Parrish; John Lightfoot

Rabbinic essays.
Jacob Zallel Lauterbach

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Or maybe Joseph of Arimathea was.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

I’m pretty sure there’s something there in all this, regarding the great historical figures that existed at the time of Jesus. But I think maybe people interested in covering it up, maybe Jews against Jesus and Christians alike, all have churned out so many mythologies and stories about all of them that it’s impossible to untangle now.