Truth and Salvation

[Servant19]

Just believing in God is not enough. Even the demons believe in Him. We must accept Jesus Christ who paid our sin debt. But you must first believe the Bible is the Word of God.

What is the difference between a demon who believes in God and a Christian who believes in God?

What is the difference between a demon who belives in Christ (because they do you know ) and a Christian who believes in Christ?

.

 

[Augustine3]

I love this reason:

And your main reason is also the main reason why I believe Christianity ( at least after Nicea) deviated from the true monotheistic teachings of Jesus Christ to conform to the practices and beliefs of the Romans (gentiles and pagans).

What a typical Muslim convert way of thinking. I suppose with your line of thinking Judaism and Islam are by-products of Zoroastrianism? The ancient Egyptians were one of the earliest civilisations to circumcise boys. I suppose Jews and Muslims conform to their practices too?

Muslims come to know God by reflecting on His Lofty Names and Sublime Attributes, His amazing, diverse and beautiful creation

The problem here is Allah depends on his creation in order to communicate who he is. Allah is master. Master of what? His creation, human beings in particular. Allah is merciful. Merciful to who? To human beings. Allah is the sustainer. Sustainer of what? Of his creation. Is there one attribute Allah does not depend on creation to exercise his attribute?

God the Father. Father of who? His only begotten Son, the second person of the Trinity. God is love? Which love? Love from Father to Son and vice versa binded by the Holy Spirit. The Trinity’s does not depend on creation in order to excerise it’s attributes.

Anyway I’m not an apologist nor do I wish to debate. You’ve made your choice. You said you’re writing a series of books which is why you’re here. I hope you don’t plan to site these posts in your book

God’s grace and blessings be upon you.

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

Let me state here and unequivocally, there is so much MORE in Catholicism and so much MORE beauty and so MORE love for God and our neighbor if we follow Jesus’ words, especially IF we LISTEN more closely to Jesus’ teachings (we may have ears but do we really listen?). If we become Christ to others, we will find the real PEACE because Jesus is THE Prince of Peace.

That doesn’t mean this will be easy nor we will be perfect but we can try to attain HOLINESS to achieve our ultimate goal…Everlasting Life in Heaven to be with God.

I also want to state, even I was NOT really well Catechized, but there’s no one to blame really. But the more I studied history, and the Church I know Christ is the only way. We each have to answer to God eventually at the end of our lives on earth.

However, if one was born under another religion, I can’t say I would believe in Christ and all that he had done to redeem Mankind My parents also made me go through the motions of Holy Communion, Confirmation, Confession etc and I never really was sure why I needed to do it)

I used to say the Our Father not even knowing what it really meantuch:

However as for me, what opened my eyes to Christ was Matthew 5:7 (direct from Jesus’ mouth 2000 years ago) Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.

I could go on, but will end here by mentioning that only through prayer (pray at all times) and fasting and through the Sacrament of Reconciliation all things started making sense.

MJ

Thanks for sharing MJ,

So we have more in common than you first let on … I like how you stress the importance of following the commandments given to Jesus. As a catholic, these were the words of the New Testament that always meant the most to me - when Jesus spoke about the practical way to live a righteous life.

When I first embraced Islam and after knowing that the Quran confirms the truths of the previous Scriptures, I opened the Bible again and read the sayings of Jesus from my new viewpoint and I was really enlightened and pretty amazed at how many of the sayings of Jesus are in complete accordance with the teachings of Islam.

I would like to start a thread just to show the Islamic perspective on some of the sayings of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, but I think I would receive a lot of opposition for that so I will leave it for my own personal research.

Anyways, thanks again and I ask Almighty God to guide us all to the Straight Path ( the narrow gate - Matthew 7:13

 

[dzheremi]

Okay Dzheremi … are you from Eqypt so you speak Arabic?

No, I’m not from Egypt. I do speak some Arabic, but it is not my native language.

 

[Servant19]

Lakum deenukum waliya deen - to you be your Deen (religion and way of life), and to me my Deen. (Quran 109:6)

Ultimately we will all stand before God and be held accountable for what we believed in this worldly life and how we acted upon that belief . Thereafter we will finally know if we achieved Salvation or Damnation.

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I ask Almighty God to guide us all to our salvation.

Dearest Kate, thankyou for this post.

Upon reflection, I feel that this part suggesting that “we will all stand before God after death” is no longer a sufficient response to the problems of the world.

It is a duty for every human being to strain every nerve, to “bend their energies” to find a solution to the worlds’ disunity and spiritual segregation.

I personally believe that unless you have strained every nerve to work towards this end, “in this earthly life”, then there is no salvation…

.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thanks for sharing MJ,

So we have more in common than you first let on … I like how you stress the importance of following the commandments given to Jesus. As a catholic, these were the words of the New Testament that always meant the most to me - when Jesus spoke about the practical way to live a righteous life.

You’re welcome Kate. Just keep in mind the commandment is by Jesus and not given to Jesus. He is being authoritative because he is God.

When I first embraced Islam and after knowing that the Quran confirms the truths of the previous Scriptures, I opened the Bible again and read the sayings of Jesus from my new viewpoint and I was really enlightened and pretty amazed at how many of the sayings of Jesus are** in complete accordance with the teachings of Islam.**

This a good thought. Keep in mind though that Jesus’ words were uttered 2000 years ago.

I would like to start a thread just to show the Islamic perspective on some of the sayings of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Gospels, but I think I would receive a lot of opposition for that so I will leave it for my own personal research.

Ah. I wouldn’t say opposition technically. We will as Catholics must speak up for any misconceptions about Jesus, and we will clarify what has been passed on to us to those who lived with and experienced Jesus first hand and saw his mighty works.

Anyways, thanks again and I ask Almighty God to guide us all to the Straight Path ( the narrow gate - Matthew 7:13

Appreciate it. Although Matthew 7:13 is not complete. There’s more…For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

The straight path is right, but few find it as it is so narrow. However by choosing Jesus and following his precepts, the path to Salvation is assured (leading to ever lasting life).

MJ

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

I love this reason:

What a typical Muslim convert way of thinking. I suppose with your line of thinking Judaism and Islam are by-products of Zoroastrianism? The ancient Egyptians were one of the earliest civilisations to circumcise boys. I suppose Jews and Muslims conform to their practices too?.

Hey what’s with the sarcasm?!

Anyways, what would you say if I told you that Islam in its essence has been God’s True religion on earth since Adam and Eve? You scoff right?

Islam simply means submitting ones will to the Creator and worshiping Him Alone in the way that He has ordained without attributing any partners (not a wife or a son or an angel or anything else) to Him in His Divinity or right to be worshiped.

Islam (in its essence) was the religion of Adam and Noah and Abraham and Moses and David …and every prophet and Messenger sent to every nation on the earth - including the Zoroastrians.

***Verily! We have sent you with the truth, a bearer of glad tidings, and a warner. And there never was a nation but a warner had passed among them. (Quran 35:24) ***

The fact that the Zoroastrians held fast to the covenant that Almighty God made with Abraham doesn’t mean that Jews and Muslims conformed to their religion. Just like many nations before them, the Zoroastrians fell into worshiping the created (fire worship I believe) instead of or along with worshiping the** Creator**. Muslims don’t worship fire, Muslims don’t worship anything that is created. I don’t know about the ancient Egyptians and circumcision - but I do know that it is a sign of Gods covenant with His *Khaleel *(beloved friend) Abraham and part of His Law that was not to be changed.

There is the anthropologists’ theory that monotheism evolved from polytheism - but Islam teaches that God created every human being on an upright nature with the inherent inclination to worship Him alone (practice Monotheism). Polytheism occurred after that when the Satan whispered and enticed humans to worship the creation instead of the Creator. Don’t we all agree that the goal of Satan is to lead as many people astray to their destruction as he possibly can?? Oh but the plot of Satan is ever feeble! Feeble indeed! Look at how he has played the same story out all over the world just changing the names of the characters in his sordid little plot …but this is my opinion and I digress…

The problem here is Allah depends on his creation in order to communicate who he is. Allah is master. Master of what? His creation, human beings in particular. Allah is merciful. Merciful to who? To human beings. Allah is the sustainer. Sustainer of what? Of his creation. Is there one attribute Allah does not depend on creation to exercise his attribute?.

***O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of all praise. (Quran 35:15) ***

Allah does not depend on His creation. Through knowing Him by His perfect attributes, we come to realize how much we are in need of Him and then we will devote all of our worship to Him Alone. This is why He created us. - to worship Him. I am sure that there is a scholarly answer to your question but I would have to search for it, That is all I can say about it right now because I don’t want to speak without sure knowledge on the Nature of God. (When I say “sure Knowledge” I mean what Allaah has revealed about Himself to us through His Book and on the tongue of His Messenger Muhammad.)

God the Father. Father of who? His only begotten Son, the second person of the Trinity. God is love? Which love? Love from Father to Son and vice versa binded by the Holy Spirit. The Trinity’s does not depend on creation in order to excerise it’s attributes. .

I think there are many references in the bible to other righteous men as being called “son of God” and I think it was David - peace be upon him - who was referred to as begotten son in one of the Old Testament books … The Trinity really doesn’t make sense to me - and I know, it’s not supposed to because it is a mystery … but where is the proof behind those statements you made? That is another reason why I embraced Islam - when you are presented with the proofs and reasons for every aspect and facet of the religion - by the upright and erudite scholars of Islam of course, it just makes sense.

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

Dearest Kate, thankyou for this post.

Upon reflection, I feel that this part suggesting that “we will all stand before God after death” is no longer a sufficient response to the problems of the world.

It is a duty for every human being to strain every nerve, to “bend their energies” to find a solution to the worlds’ disunity and spiritual segregation.

I personally believe that unless you have strained every nerve to work towards this end, “in this earthly life”, then there is no salvation…

.

Excuse me, nobody said anything about solving the problems of the world!

You know what Serve - I already saw that zinger you threw at me in the other thread - about the raafidhah (shia) and sufis etc… I’m going to reply you there,

This here thread is for understanding the concept of truth and salvation according to Muslim beliefs and catholic beliefs. Muslims and Catholics believe there is one truth and that acting on that truth following that Straight PAth - will gain them salvation
Unlike Bahai-ers who seem to believe in everything and nothing and expect everyone to “bend thier energies” i.e. change their beliefs as much as they change their underwear - for the “greater good” - Hah! what a bunch of one world order hoo-ey! So your comments here mr./ms. serve are irrelevant.

Don’t your worry though - I’m going to give you plenty of fodder when I reply you over in that other thread! - be patient.

 

[Servant19]

Excuse me, nobody said anything about solving the problems of the world!

You know what Serve - I already saw that zinger you threw at me in the other thread - about the raafidhah (shia) and sufis etc… I’m going to reply you there,

This here thread is for understanding the concept of truth and salvation according to Muslim beliefs and catholic beliefs. Muslims and Catholics believe there is one truth and that acting on that truth following that Straight PAth - will gain them salvation
Unlike Bahai-ers who seem to believe in everything and nothing and expect everyone to “bend thier energies” i.e. change their beliefs as much as they change their underwear - for the “greater good” - Hah! what a bunch of one world order hoo-ey! So your comments here mr./ms. serve are irrelevant.

Don’t your worry though - I’m going to give you plenty of fodder when I reply you over in that other thread! - be patient.

Dear Katie, I’m not sure what you feel I threw at you, my intentions is not to insult (so please throw it back at me and tell me to grow up and dialogue in an adult manner, throwing is childish…)

The reason I wrote about the problems of the world is because that has a lot to do with salvation.

What is the role of religion in this world?

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[Servant19]

The problem here is Allah depends on his creation in order to communicate who he is. Allah is master. Master of what? His creation, human beings in particular. Allah is merciful. Merciful to who? To human beings. Allah is the sustainer. Sustainer of what? Of his creation. Is there one attribute Allah does not depend on creation to exercise his attribute?

Just a quick note to humbly put forward a perspective that none of the attributes you list above Augustine are in reality attributes of God. They are attributes of the Kingdom, through which emanates this physical universe.

God is far removed from the human description of attributes. The only reason these attributes have been assigned to Him through history in all the Holy Texts is so as not assign on Him any imperfections…

.

 

[Augustine3]

I think there are many references in the bible to other righteous men as being called “son of God” and I think it was David - peace be upon him - who was referred to as begotten son in one of the Old Testament books … The Trinity really doesn’t make sense to me - and I know, it’s not supposed to because it is a mystery … but where is the proof behind those statements you made? That is another reason why I embraced Islam - when you are presented with the proofs and reasons for every aspect and facet of the religion - by the upright and erudite scholars of Islam of course, it just makes sense.

It’s obvious you need to do more study on the Catholic position. I suggest you take advantage of this forum and ask how Catholics reconcile the “sons of God” topic rather than raise your proud ex-Catholic banner.

 

[FierceDefender]

In order to ascertain which religion holds the true faith, we need to investigate the credentials of the claimant of each faith.

Please explain why you believe Muhammad is a prophet. What are his credentials?

What are the credentials of Moses, David, Adam, Noah, Jesus? (peace be upon them all) …
I need to know what credentials you are after …

The prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a trustworthy person among the Arab tribes before he was even a prophet!

Secondly, and most importantly, he (peace and blessing be upon him) called all of mankind to worship the One and only true God, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala like the messengers before him…

And another interesting thing you might want to know, when his son, Ibrahim, died, there was an eclipse and people were amazed and a rumor was going around that the sun was eclipsed in sadness over the death of his son…

He replied to these rumors with the following words

“The sun and the moon are signs of God. They are eclipsed neither for the death nor birth of any man. On beholding an eclipse, therefore, remember God and turn to Him in prayer.”

Is that something a “liar” would say? wouldn’t a liar seize this opportunity to say that it is a proof that he was a messenger?

Can you tell me one man who has his actions followed by the masses?

The way he sat? He drank, he ate? He fasted, he prayed? which foot to enter first when entering specific areas and buildings?

Who has been so influential?

Do you want more credential?

 

[FierceDefender]

And as always

For any mistake I have said is of my fault and anything correct is from the King of kings, Master of masters, Leader of leaders, your creator and my creator, ALLAH subhana wa ta’ala …

 

[Servant19]

And another interesting thing you might want to know, when his son, Ibrahim, died, there was an eclipse and people were amazed and a rumor was going around that the sun was eclipsed in sadness over the death of his son…

He replied to these rumors with the following words

“The sun and the moon are signs of God. They are eclipsed neither for the death nor birth of any man. On beholding an eclipse, therefore, remember God and turn to Him in prayer.”

Is that something a “liar” would say? wouldn’t a liar seize this opportunity to say that it is a proof that he was a messenger?

This is indeed beautiful

Thank you for sharing!

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We must believe Jesus is God, and be baptized. By doing so, we become part of the Body of Christ, and become part of the family of God. (For those who are ignorant of this, God can choose to save them if they follow Him as they know how to).

After baptism, we must follow His Commandments, and take up our cross daily. The Bible gives us great knowledge about God, but Christ never commanded us to read, but He did command us to follow Him, and obey His commandments.

God has spoken through the prophets and they must be consistent with the prophets that went before. The Holy Bible says that Jesus is the seal of revelation, and that all prophets that come after him must speak in his name or authority and preach the eternal Gospel of Christ

“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” John 6:27

“For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 19:10

We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:9-

According to my comprehension front to back, there is no-name in which Salvation Comes, save Jesus Christ. May He be Blessed Forever… I guess its no surprise some don’t come to this conclusion. My prayers are with them, I believe they will come to know this either here or shortly after that last breath. Jesus Christ comes to judge the quick and the dead, for that is an affirmative.

You don’t have to wait to meet Jesus Christ, you don’t have to read the Bible or anything He wrote for He didn’t write anything, but He gave a once and for all public revelation, yet you can still have a personal relationship with Him now, you can communicate with Him in your prayer, and worship Him in His Church, and you are invited to share eternity with him, and He is always with you now. The Spiritual laws have never changed though, instead of taking his shoes off as Moses did, you have to remove the sin attached to the spiritual law. I guess this has more to do with NT, how everyone feels the spiritual law affects them otherwise, I do not know, its in Gods hands.

Peace

 

[ffg]

Being raised a Catholic, I can say that I have some knowledge of the Catholic Creed, the Sacraments, Commandments and of course prayers and mass rituals.

These types of lines, seen so often, tell so much.

As many of us went through a similar process, some not entirely leaving the Church, but abandoning it.

I think a common theme for those who found their way back, would be that we understand now that what we thought we knew was not accurate, complete, or both.

The key to entering into a new learning process is to enter it, not fight it with what is probably incorrect or incomplete knowledge of the past.

In this place, you will not have a shortage of answers, it is not necessary to lay a foundation that shows a false understanding before asking a question.

Just ask away and you will rebuild an understanding!

Always good to doublecheck answers against official Church sources though.

 

[GaryTaylor]

More than 50,000 people gathered in St Peter’s Square under unseasonably warm blue skies yesterday to pray the Angelus with Pope Francis. Before the prayers, the Holy Father reflected on the day’s Gospel reading in which Jesus addresses the question of His relationship to the Law of Moses.

“Jesus does not want to erase the commandments that the Lord gave through Moses,” explained Pope Francis. “Rather, He desires to bring them to their fulfilment and He immediately adds that this ‘fulfillment’ of the Law requires a higher justice, a more authentic observance."

The Holy Father went on to note the words of Jesus to His disciples: “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

The Pope explained that Jesus does not give importance to rote observance and outward conduct. “He goes to the root of the law, focusing above all on the intention and therefore on the human heart,” which is the source of our actions for good and for evil. Pope Francis said that profound motivations, the expression of a hidden wisdom, of God’s wisdom, are needed in order for us to act well – not merely good rules and legal norms. “The Wisdom of God,” he said, “can be received through the Holy Spirit: and we, through faith in Christ, open ourselves to the action of the Spirit, which enables us to live God’s love.”

The Holy Father concluded: “In light of this teaching of Christ, every precept reveals its full meaning as a requirement of love, and all come together in the greatest commandment: love God with all your heart and love your neighbour as yourself.”

indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=24173

 

[Della]

Thanks for the nice welcome and feedback Della,

I did not say Catholics finagle the truth. I only quoted what another poster had said.
Being raised a Catholic, I can say that I have some knowledge of the Catholic Creed, the Sacraments, Commandments and of course prayers and mass rituals.

You’re welcome. I wanted to be sure that you didn’t take the word of one person over that which the Church says for herself.

I am familiar with the Catholic Catechism and use it as a resource occasionally, however I am also interested in the personal perspectives of actual Catholics who are living their faith and talking about why they believe what they believe - the CAF seems like the perfect place for that!

We believe what we believe because reason, history, Sacred Tradition, and faith tell us they are true. We love God because he is God and we believe in Christ because he fulfilled the prophecies made about the Messiah and which he made about himself by rising from the dead, thus proving his claims of divinity to be true.

I think here you are referring to the Apostles Creed. I know that the church considers it to be a faithful summary of the apostles faith and that Catholics accept it to be so, but I don’t accept it because the creed itself was not formalized until the Council of Trent and there is no proof whatsoever that the 12 apostles actually said all that it contains much less wrote it.

No, not the Apostles Creed or indeed any of the creeds of which there are several, including the Nicene Creed which was formulated much earlier than Trent, in the 4th century. I am referring to the NT writings of the Apostles.

What I have learned is that popes in the past asserted that non-Catholics were not saved. Such belief is stated in papal documents from the middle ages and up. And when you refer to the “all” who have been redeemed, I think you mean only those who have not heard the Catholic teachings, because if someone hears of the Catholic teachings but doesn’t accept them, then such a one is considered lost - not saved, right?

Such documents need to be read in the context of their times and who the popes were addressing. They were referring to those who deliberately, and with full knowledge reject Christ not those who have never heard or do not understand. The language used is that of theologians and scholars not that of ordinary people who have little to no training in theology. And no, redemption covers all men, saved or not. Salvation is given to those who cooperate with God’s grace thereby applying Christ’s redemptive act to their souls.

Other than that, if you could point my other misconceptions about Catholic beliefs then I would appreciate it.

Thank you, Katie Kilbane

You’re welcome. :tiphat: Please ask any questions you like. We encourage people to start new threads for each new topic so that the discussion can be focused on that topic and not be scattered and thus unhelpful.

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

It’s obvious you need to do more study on the Catholic position. I suggest you take advantage of this forum and ask how Catholics reconcile the “sons of God” topic rather than raise your proud ex-Catholic banner.

Proud Ex catholic banner? Sorry that you see it that way. Since I refused your invitation to empty my heart and open it for a new understanding of Catholicism, you start to belittle me with sarcasm and accusations. No problem. This is a Catholics forum and not a Muslims forum so I uderstand that my views will not always be welcome here.

I think for the most part I have been respectful - not insulted Catholic beliefs, simply stated why Muslims believe what they believe and why I am convinved that Islam is the truth while striving to follow the command of my Creator:

***And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” (Quran 29:46)

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So Augustine - can I ask you how you reconcile the “sons of God” and “begotten son of God?”

Thank you, Katie

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

The key to entering into a new learning process is to enter it, not fight it with what is probably incorrect or incomplete knowledge of the past.

.

Are you telling me (as Augustine did), to empty my heart of the “wrong understandings” you say I have so I can open it to a new understanding ? How can you prove that my understandings are wrong? Who are you to say that they are?

In this place, you will not have a shortage of answers, it is not necessary to lay a foundation that shows a false understanding before asking a question.

Just ask away and you will rebuild an understanding!

.

So by saying that I have some knowledge of Catholic rites and rituals, this is laying a foundation of false understanding? I have asked away, and the answers were not satisfying! So I asked the same elsewhere and found the satisfying answers in Islam. That simple.

Always good to doublecheck answers against official Church sources though.

Sure, as I mentioned elsewhere, I resource the catechism.

Anyways, thanks for your advice but I find it misguided so I will kindly refuse.

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