Truth and Salvation

[ffg]

So what about BELIEF?

Let’s try again: **Most Catholics don’t understand the teachings they profess to believe in. ** HOW’S THAT?

Practicle examples:

• “I believe in Trinity but I can’t understand it.” (it’s a mystery)

“I believe that wafers and wine are actually transformed into flesh and blood of Christ who is God but I can’t understand how.” (it’s a mystery)*

We already established most Catholics don’t go to Mass, so we can’t argue those folks are professing a belief in the Mass’ truth. We could reasonably conclude other teachings are not professed, if the key prayer is not important to them. So the answer doesn’t change.

That also covers your second example pertinent to ‘most’ Catholics, though considering your example we could expand the %? Surely folks who attend, believe through faith.

Most would say Faith, in a most simple definition, is believing something we can’t see or prove. As we are called to use faith and reason in conjunction, I don’t see anything wrong with a ‘reasonable Faith’.

In the case of your second example, a quick study of the last supper, using other historical events prior to the last supper, could generate a reasonable faith in the matter.

Every time I get on a plane, I have reasonable faith in the pilot and engineers, mechanics, ground crew, flight staff, God to keep the atmosphere full of air, etc.

Sometimes in faith it’s important to understand that you will not understand, like with the Trinity.

God Bless.

 

[ffg]

I was meaning to answer another point after the last one, but I can’t find the post to reply to. It had to do with a statement that Jesus never says He is God.

In fact, doesn’t he tell Pilot " I Am". When questioned on this matter. I suppose specifically the question is ‘Son of God’. But obviously meaning was intended that portrayed blasphemy to the crowd.

But regardless of verbiage hunting in the bible, I haven’t specifically stated I’m on the internet here, but if my kids watch my actions, they see this to be true.

I’m sure the apostles noticed and took note while watching a man walk toward them on the sea.

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

I was meaning to answer another point after the last one, but I can’t find the post to reply to. It had to do with a statement that Jesus never says He is God. .

I think that post was deleted … I have three infractions here for being uncharitable - maybe that was one of my uncharitable posts?

In fact, doesn’t he tell Pilot " I Am". When questioned on this matter. I suppose specifically the question is ‘Son of God’. But obviously meaning was intended that portrayed blasphemy to the crowd.

But regardless of verbiage hunting in the bible, I haven’t specifically stated I’m on the internet here, but if my kids watch my actions, they see this to be true.

I’m sure the apostles noticed and took note while watching a man walk toward them on the sea.

When asked by Pilate if he is God, Jesus said “I am?” I’ll try to reference that since it is important to me. And regards the miracle of Jesus walking on water - well didn’t other prophets and righteous men in the Bible perform miracles also? They were not called God though.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[GaryTaylor]

But Jesus Christ=God is Coming. Look…

Revelation, Jesus is Coming
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.…’

answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/07/21/alpha-and-omega

The argument seems rather ill thought out as why would one argue the Bible doesn’t explicitly state something when the Church came before the Bible and was established by God, That’s a rather polemical point I would suggest.

 

[Trebor135]

Okay, so you (and FFG) see it as a matter of practicing faith with dedication. Not a matter of understanding the core pillars of catholic beliefs.

Well, picture it this way: to find answers about Islam, I shouldn’t go to a Muslim who says the five daily prayers only when it’s convenient; has no interest in going on pilgrimage to Mecca because they can’t be bothered to save up for the trip; doesn’t keep the Ramadan fast faithfully because their culture’s cuisine offers such enticingly savory dishes; and gives to charity only when they have nothing else on their wish list at the time.

Then let me ask, can a Christian practice his/her faith with dedication regardless if he/she understands (or comprehends) the foundation of Catholic teachings?

I’d like you to clarify what you mean by “understands” or “comprehends”.

If a Muslim doesn’t know that they’re required to pray five times a day, and mistakenly believes the number of prescribed daily prayers is three, can we say that this person “understands” or “comprehends” their faith?

One of the special gifts the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was graced with was jawami al-kalim – speech that was concise, yet comprehensive and full of meaning. A speech that suffices both the individual with a powerful intellect and the average person alike.

Great. How, then, did Muhammad explain the ostensible eternal preexistence of the Qur’an in the presence of Allah?

Studying the Quran is the most noble science of all Islaamic Sciences. Prophet Muhammad said: *“The best of you is he who learns the Qur’an and teaches it." * There are numerous books of Tafseer (exegesis) containing thorough explanations with chains of narrations going back to the Prophet and/or his companions.

Muslims World wide have the same copy of the Mushaf (Arabic Qur’an in book form) which they read, recite, memorize, study, and contemplate.

Millions of Muslims all over the world from young to old, of different tongues and nationalities, have memorized the Quran in Arabic (and in totality) word for word, living by its Commandments and abstaining from all that it forbids.

And just for the record, the act of pursuing religious knowledge is very commendable in Islam. It is not at all absurd to reject a doctrine that is illogical, if said doctrine is one from which we will form the foundation of our belief. Muslims don’t need to wait for some individual with high caliber intellect and silver tongue to make the understanding and beauty of the Quran accessible to us. It is the easily accessible, ultimate authoritative guide by which we structure our daily lives in total submission to the will of the Creator - a submission born out of deep love and yearning to meet Him while He is pleased with us.

If we act upon the precepts of the Quran with sure knowledge and sincerity to God, it will lead us to our salvation.

Of what good is it to Indonesians, Bangladeshis, Iranians, Turks, Somalis, and Guineans to “have the same copy of the Mushaf (Arabic Qur’an in book form) which they read, recite, memorize, study, and contemplate”? The language of Islam’s holy book is not at all indigenous to any of these national groups. How can the Qur’an be an “easily accessible, ultimate authoritative guide by which we structure our daily lives in total submission to the will of the Creator” when “living by its Commandments and abstaining from all that it forbids” is an impossible task for all the Muslims not fluent in classical Arabic and without access to well-educated imams or the writings of Islamic scholars? Please see “Flexibility” and “The question of authentication”.

Edit: Additionally, what benefit does the Qur’an provide to Muslims if it can’t make up its mind on a topic like the status of Christians and Jews? Such waffling leaves me confused rather than enlightened.

 

[ffg]

Katie,

You are doing a good job hashing all this out.

There is a lot of information. I wish I saw your efforts more often among all us Christians.

Thank you.

With regard to miracles, what you find with prophets, or others is ‘by the power of God’, the unexplained occurs.

With Jesus, this is not seen, or heard, because it is not necessary. He just does.

For instance, Moses parting the sea, was instigated by and through a prayer.

Jesus’ miracles are simply happenings. He gave blessings, never needing to receive them for ordinary or extraordinary work.

The one key time we note Jesus praying, is in the garden after the last supper ( kind of, can be explained later) when He asks God the Father to allow the 4th cup of Passover to pass Him by. He was sweating blood, I would be too if I knew my future and it included torture and crucifixion.

As we follow through the actual events, it was necessary to complete Passover, and doing so from the cross bridged the old covenant with the new.

God Bless

 

[Tom_Baum]

So what about BELIEF?

Let’s try again: **Most Catholics don’t understand the teachings they profess to believe in. ** HOW’S THAT?

Practicle examples:

• “I believe in Trinity but I can’t understand it.” (it’s a mystery)

“I believe that wafers and wine are actually transformed into flesh and blood of Christ who is God but I can’t understand how.” (it’s a mystery)*

I have met Who is referred to as God the Father, I have met Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

I believe that Jesus Is God-Incarnate and one of the reasons that I believe, is because I “know” that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus.

Do I “understand” the Trinity, of course not, but I “know” that it is true that God Is a Trinity, I, personally, believe that it is beyond our human ability to “understand”.

Do I know “how” the Eucharist becomes Jesus, don’t have a clue even tho I “know” it to be true, didn’t have a clue “how” when I just believed it either.

I also believe that God created absolutely everything out of absolutely nothing, do I know “how”, don’t have a clue, do you?

Even when someone “knows” something, as opposed to believing something, doesn’t necessarily mean that they “know” the “how”.

I believe that God knew that I needed to know at least a little, as opposed to believing, and therefore in God’s Way, God let me “know”.

I would say that “knowing” some with God-given knowledge lets one know that knowing the “how” is really not even important to know.

It is enough to “know” that one need not be a “know-it-all”, there is only One know-it-all (Omniscience) and that One is God.

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

Well, picture it this way: to find answers about Islam, I shouldn’t go to a Muslim who says the five daily prayers only when it’s convenient; has no interest in going on pilgrimage to Mecca because they can’t be bothered to save up for the trip; doesn’t keep the Ramadan fast faithfully because their culture’s cuisine offers such enticingly savory dishes; and gives to charity only when they have nothing else on their wish list at the time.

You know this discourse with you is a bit tense - Your hostility towards Islamic faith is palpable, and although I did not come to CAF with the intention to debate ( I’m not checking the links you posted ) or even defend my faith and beliefs, I see this as an opportunity to act on the Commandment of my Lord thereby earning His good pleasure inshaa’Allaah:

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him.” (Quran 29:46)

Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. (Quran 2:109)

In response to your comment, I never said I wanted to or was trying to find out about Christianity from luke warm Catholics so I don’t see how your comparison to a weak Muslim makes sense. The question only required a simple yes or no answer - with perhaps a little proof from catholic teachings to back it up.

I’d like you to clarify what you mean by “understands” or “comprehends”.

Has an understanding of their church teachings - comprehends their church teachings - I don’t know how else to clarify it except by the definition:

1.To perceive and comprehend the nature and significance of; grasp.

2.To know thoroughly by close contact or long experience with.
.
3.To grasp or comprehend the meaning intended or expressed by (another).

Again Im not asking in order to debate the answer or say that “my way of understanding my faith is better than your way of understanding your faith.” As I stated in my greet and meet post - I would like to do a comparitive study of the two faiths - **“catholics believe this way because their sources (church teachings and Bible) teach them this way - Muslims believe this way because their Sources (Quran and Sunnah as understood by companions) teach them this way.” ** It’s not about which way is correct - so I don’t understand why you are grilling me and trying to refute my comments.

If a Muslim doesn’t know that they’re required to pray five times a day, and mistakenly believes the number of prescribed daily prayers is three, can we say that this person “understands” or “comprehends” their faith?

Every adult same muslim is required to seek knowledge (of their deen) to the best of thier ability and to act on that knowledge to the best of their ability. The foundations and pillars of Islam are pretty simple and clear, However if for whatever reason a Muslim is ignorant of the teachings by no fault of his own, he wouldn’t be held accountable. It’s hard to imagine that there would be a Muslim out there who was mistaken about the number of prescribed daily prayers, uness he lived in total isolation with no access to authentic resources. But anyways in that case he would not be held accountable.

Great. How, then, did Muhammad explain the ostensible eternal preexistence of the Qur’an in the presence of Allah?

The Quran is the Speech of Allaah - not created, transmitted through the Angel Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad. All of the companions and their followers believed this and the chains of narration ( so and so heard on the authority of so and so who heard it on the authority of so and so…) are authentic and reliable. (Another very honorable science of the Islaamic sciences is the study of the Isnaad and the reliabilty of narrators) Around the time of the great reformer and scholar of Islaam - Imaam Ibn Hanbal (d. 855 CE) the heretical sects of Mutazilah and Ashari deviated from this belief both saying that the Quran was created. They were refuted by the upright scholars. I don’t have enough knowledge about it to say much more except if you are interested you may read more about it HERE or HERE.

CONTINUED NEXT POST

 

[Katie_Kilbane]

Of what good is it to Indonesians, Bangladeshis, Iranians, Turks, Somalis, and Guineans to “have the same copy of the Mushaf (Arabic Qur’an in book form) which they read, recite, memorize, study, and contemplate”? The language of Islam’s holy book is not at all indigenous to any of these national groups. How can the Qur’an be an “easily accessible, ultimate authoritative guide by which we structure our daily lives in total submission to the will of the Creator” when “living by its Commandments and abstaining from all that it forbids” is an impossible task for all the Muslims not fluent in classical Arabic and without access to well-educated imams or the writings of Islamic scholars? Please see “Flexibility” and “The question of authentication”.

Well firstly, the meanings of the Arabic Quran have been faithfully translated in just about every language - defintily in the languages of all the groups you mentioned above and it is easy to comprehend the commands and forbiddances from the translations. Secondly the fact that the Quran itself is in Arabic is only an added assurance that it will not be corrupted or adulterated. Arabic is not my native tongue but as soon as I embraced Islaam I began learning Arabic and its meanings so I would be able to recite the faatihah and other shorter surahs in my five daiy prayers. Indonesians are among the most eager to learn and recite the Quran in Arabic. Learning Arabic is very easy for whoever Allaah has opened their heart for that and memorizing Quran is even easier. I’m not very goos at conversational Arabic but I have memorized a fair portion of the Quran, recite it with ease (in Arabic) and am able to grasp the meanings of what I am saying. I am currently enrolled in Arabic Sarf and nahw classes (Morpholgy and Grammar) and my teacher uses examples from Quran and explains to us the finer meanings of some of the words. It is really beautiful experience learning the language of the Quran

Edit: Additionally, what benefit does the Qur’an provide to Muslims if it can’t make up its mind on a topic like the status of Christians and Jews? Such waffling leaves me confused rather than enlightened.

I dont understand what you mean about waffling on the status of Ahlul Kitaab? If you are unclear about a certain verse and the context in which it was revealed, then why don’t you follow it up with reading a Tafseer on it? You are familiar with the early Mufassireen - If you still have a misunderstanding you could post your specific concerns and I would do my best to assist with whatever knowledge I had about it.

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