Truth: is it relative or not?

[EndTimes]

Truth is objective. A thing is true or it isn’t, and the church thinking a thing is not what makes it true.

Without truth, can anyone actually argue for or against any thing?

 

[Poet]

I think you misunderstood. I was simply saying that the belief system a Catholic holds prevents them from being convinced by argument or evidence. I’m not mad about this, just pointing it out.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Poet:

I’m curious what your goal is

A few thoughts: Might someone else, an atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Hindu, another Christian of a different denomination, conclude from your posts that your beliefs also prevent you being convinced by evidence? I’m not saying it would be fair or right, but pointing out that it’s human nature to think that if someone doesn’t agree with our beliefs, they’re refusing to see the evidence that is so obvious to us.

Let’s say your brother has in objective truth fallen into error–that error is believing our works impact our post-earth destination? Some other false doctrine? What if he believes works are part of our salvation? What bad thing will happen to him as a result of believing that, from which you need to rescue him? Will he go to Hell for believing that our works are part of our salvation–ie, that our actions on earth impact our eternity? Is there a possibility he could believe that and do good works out of that belief and still get to Heaven?

On good works being ‘an obsession.’ : How do you define obsession? How do you know that all Catholics, or any Catholic is ‘obsessed’ with good works? Why do you think Catholics are ‘obsessed’ with good works? Do you have an example of someone who did good works that they should not have done because it was ‘obsession?’ How does doing good for others interfere with a relationship with God?

The reasons for doing good works: this is another issue on which entire books could be written. I can only speak for myself and say I’m not trying to ‘impress’ God with good works. I do them because I want to be more like Christ AND I believe that my choices impact my eternity. I can be more like Christ or more like Hitler and I personally do not believe that being more like Hitler as I believe Jesus died for my sins will end with me in Heaven. Why is this belief so upsetting to Protestants?

 

[EndTimes]

A few thoughts: Might someone else, an atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Hindu, another Christian of a different denomination, conclude from your posts that your beliefs also prevent you being convinced by evidence?

Excellent point.

Committment and Consistency…

Honesty and Openness? Is the ticket for positive internal Growth…

 

[Poet]

He has fallen into error and I’m trying to return him to the Truth.

I’m especially curious about this. Thank you for such a straight forward answer. I already asked, what is going to happen to him if he falsely believes that doing good works matters (or whatever other doctrine you believe is false?) What are you trying to save him from?

But I’m also curious about your purpose in posting here. If your goal is to save him from Catholic error, how is you posting questions on a Catholic forum going to save him? Was the expectation that you would ask your questions, a bunch of Catholics would respond, “Because the Church said so,” with absolutely no other grounds for believing as they do, and you would show your brother that not one single Catholic can back up their beliefs, and he would leave the Church?

I’m asking genuinely. I’m really curious how posting your questions here helps your goal of getting him to leave the Catholic faith.

 

[Poet]

A church in India couldn’t possibly communicate regularly with a church in Rome. There just wasn’t the infrastructure necessary to do so.

Sorry, it’s a detail, but my work involves a lot of research. I’m fairly well versed in several eras of history, medieval and BC. One of the first things that began to amaze me, the deeper I dug into history, was how well-traveled they were. Certainly communication wasn’t as quick as email, but yes, he absolutely could have been in regular communication with Rome.

As to the rest of your post, don’t you think you’re sitting in judgment? How do you KNOW if any particular person really knows Christ or not? How do you know another person’s heart, let alone the hearts of the majority of Catholics all in one fell swoop?

 

[EndTimes]

Thomas founded the Church in India circa 52/54 AD

He had sufficient time to know all what Peter asked of him - before he arrived.

And yet. He could have traveled back to whereever
or have delivered // received messages from a “messenger”

Thing is? Those days were not the days of Instant Gratification
How long would it take to sail to India from say - the Red Sea?
It’s not exceedingly far…

_

 

[TK421]

And they all acknowledged the primacy of Peter, and of his successor Linus.

I’m sorry man, this betrays a basic misunderstanding of history. A church in India couldn’t possibly communicate regularly with a church in Rome. There just wasn’t the infrastructure necessary to do so. Thomas built his church as he was guided to do so by the Holy Spirit. If there was some acknowledgement of the church in Rome as above them, it occurred hundreds of years later.

The TRUE CHURCH is the worldwide group of people who are united by the love of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many Catholics who jump through all the proper Catholic hoops and do all the proper penances are not a part of this church because they don’t KNOW HIM (Matthew 7:23), and many non-Catholics who love the Lord and serve him through their relationship with God and Jesus Christ and the prompting of the Spirit ARE a part of the true church (Malachi 1:11). It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Rome.

You get to determine what the “True Church” is? Why? Are you God?

And why are you using a canon of scripture that was established by a Council of Catholic bishops in union with the Bishop of Rome? The Bible as we know it today would not exist without the Catholic Church.

How do you know who does or who doesn’t “know him”? Are you omniscient?

How do you know who does or who doesn’t serve him through a relationship “with God and Jesus Christ and the prompting of the Spirit?” Thousands of branches of Christianity claim that they do this but they all disagree with each other over all sorts of things.

The church in India acknowledges the Bishop of Rome. A church can be cut off from the Pope because of unfortunate circumstances but they can still retain their Catholic identity. There were Catholic Christians in the kingdom of Japan who went without priests after the violent persecutions there killed them all, but they continued to give baptisms and give Christian burials. The Church in Japan is - happily - back in contact with Rome.

 

[philophoser]

But I’m also curious about your purpose in posting here. If your goal is to save him from Catholic error, how is you posting questions on a Catholic forum going to save him ?

I’m not especially worried about him. I’m worried because he has six children and I don’t want him indoctrinating them (and by extension, future generations) into a belief that in addition to loving God and having a relationship with Him, you have to do all these extra acts to prove or gain your salvation. Or that Jesus is an unhappy judge staring angrily down from heaven at you because you haven’t said enough Hail Mary’s or properly repented from specific sins. I don’t think that is a proper understanding of Jesus’ relation to His followers.

Secondarily, I’m hoping to talk to Catholics who know the ins and outs of their faith and can tell me exactly where doctrines like the Treasury of Merit and Papal Infallibility originated. I’ve scoured through the church fathers looking for answers and I haven’t been able to find them, but I know some people on here will have the answers.

Finally (as stated in this post, not by order of importance), I believe that iron sharpens iron, and by pushing people on here about their beliefs it will force them to question the beliefs they hold, and the same holds for me as well. Disputing these issues with my brother has strengthened my faith and taught me a bunch, and I’m looking to continue that.

As to the rest of your post, don’t you think you’re sitting in judgment?

I’m certainly not sitting in judgment. In fact, I’d imagine many would accuse me of being too liberal (see below). I have no idea exactly which people are saved. I just believe that there are Catholics who are saved, Protestants who are saved, Jews who are saved, reformed Muslims who are saved, etc. Rather than “sitting in judgment”, I’m sure many denominations would accuse me of being too liberal in my views.

he absolutely could have been in regular communication with Rome.

If there is ANY evidence of Thomas subjecting himself to Rome or Peter, please educate me on this. From what I read, there was no documented communication with Rome until 1600 years later, but I could be wrong. I believe (and I think the evidence shows) that Thomas went to India and preached to the inhabitants of India the Gospel he believed through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[philophoser]

How do you know who does or who doesn’t serve him through a relationship “with God and Jesus Christ and the prompting of the Spirit?”

I don’t know exactly which people know God and serve him. I know that I do because of my personal experience of saving grace and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and I’ve never set foot inside of a Catholic church. I assume my brother does, because I’ve seen evidence of this relationship. I assume Muslims do, because I’ve read experiences of reformed Muslims where Jesus spoke to them in a dream and led them to a saving faith, without ever setting foot in a Catholic church. Why do you think that the only true believers are ones who ascribe to a certain seven beliefs that the bishop of Rome happens to hold (other than that that specific church says they must)?

Christians in the kingdom of Japan who went without priests after the violent persecutions there killed them all

Were these people damned to hell because they couldn’t confess and receive communion for their sins from a priest who had been properly ordained, as defined by the church in Rome?

Does the physical proximity of the nearest Catholic priest condemn billions of people to hell each generation?

 

[Crocus]

Papal Infallibility

Saying you haven’t found satisfactory information on the internet have you read the following?

From this site:

Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers Tract

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm

 

[TK421]

Were these people damned to hell because they couldn’t confess and receive communion for their sins from a priest who had been properly ordained, as defined by the church in Rome?

Does the physical proximity of the nearest Catholic priest condemn billions of people to hell each generation?

Huh?

Philophoser, respectably, I think a good place to start would be to read or watch some of the materials available on this website, because you have some pretty big misconceptions about what Catholics believe.

 

[philophoser]

I apologize if the answer to this question is obvious. If you could link me to a thread that discusses this or tell me what keyword to search, I’d appreciate it.

 

[Crocus]

I apologize if the answer to this question is obvious. If you could link me to a thread that discusses this or tell me what keyword to search, I’d appreciate it.

For anything you want know, with footnotes to scripture and documents, here’s the full version:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[philophoser]

Would you mind telling me which section deals with people or groups of people who don’t have a priest in their general vicinity?

 

[Poet]

I’m not especially worried about him. I’m worried because he has six children and I don’t want him indoctrinating them…

… hoping to talk to Catholics who know … their faith and can tell me … where doctrines … originated. I’ve scoured through the church fathers looking for answers…

… iron sharpens iron, and by pushing people on here about their beliefs it will force them to question the beliefs they hold, and the same holds for me as well…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Poet:

As to the rest of your post, don’t you think you’re sitting in judgment?

But you ARE worried about his children. What do you think is going to happen to them if he ‘indoctrinates’ them with the idea of doing good works? Are they going to go to Hell if they believe this or if they do good works? What is your concern for them?

I will most gently add: they ARE his children to raise. And my experience of the Catholic faith is not as you describe it (ie, angry Jesus, enough Hail Mary’s etc)

I agree with you on iron sharpening iron and Iwelcome the incentive to dig deeper into my faith. I wonder, if Church Fathers had those answers, would someone biased against Catholic faith recognize that? Ie: You asked why the Catholic church thinks a verse applies to them? Likewise, why wouldn’t it since the Catholic Church WAS the Christian faith for 1500 years? Why would Joe Who Opened a Church or Martin Luther think it applied to them?

I agree: people who love God and strive to do His will are saved (isn’t doing His will sort of like ‘works?’) But it seems that saying a Catholic doesn’t know Jesus is judgment of another’s heart.

Thomas: I’m no expert on this. My comment was strictly that historically, travel and communication were not only possible, but common.

Further, that you don’t have proof Thomas spoke with Rome is not proof he DIDN’T. Atheists have for years mocked Christians, claiming no archaeological evidence of certain names in the Bible. THEN ONE DAY…an archaeologist found the king named in the Bible existed. As scientific unfolds, we find that more and more things the Bible stated are true.

Again, I know nothing about Thomas/ India, but that you aren’t aware of him having communication with Rome (which would 't have been ‘Rome’ in that time) doesn’t prove he wasn’t in communion with Peter and the teachings of the original Catholic Church.

I appreciate the incentive to study. I suggest you meet your brother in love, not in an effort to prove him wrong. I have a recent story where a born again believes he and his family are right in their Christianity but their bigotry against me has made it certain I will never join their church.

 

[Frankenfurter]

I understand that the official view of the Catholic church is that the Catholic church and the Pope never falls into error, correct?

No that is not right but a common misunderstanding.

 

[Crocus]

Would you mind telling me which section deals with people or groups of people who don’t have a priest in their general vicinity?

If you know someone like this you can do an internet search for Catholic Church near me and contact the priest there. That priest can advise them.

Have you read at least the article from this website, linked above? Papal infallibility? One of your main issues I believe.

 

[philophoser]

Yes I read that article. It doesn’t describe who came up with the idea, which was my primary question. I don’t think the verses in Matthew 16, John 16 and 1 Timothy 3 have anything to do with papal infallibility. And again, I’m asking what does the Catholic church believe about people who are born in an environment where they have no priest to confess to and no way to receive priestly absolution. Can you please direct me to a place where I can find an answer to this question?

I searched “what do catholics believe about people who are born in a society where there is no priest” and I didn’t find an answer.

 

[Crocus]

I’m on a cell phone so it could take a while.

You mean people like in a remote place who have never heard of Jesus?

Maybe this helps:

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[philophoser]

So, according to the article you linked, as it pertains to the Japanese, people who had been baptized as Catholics prior to the expulsion of priests would be saved, but would undergo additional time in purgatory because they couldn’t confess their sins to a priest and receive absolution?
And regarding their children, it would seem that if they were taught about Catholicism, they would go to hell because they weren’t ignorant of the faith but hadn’t received sacraments from a priest, but if they were not taught about Catholicism, then they it would be possible for them to be saved as members of the “invincibly ignorant” class? Or are they not “invincibly ignorant” because their parents knew the truth but did not teach it to them?