"TRUTH" What is it and does it REALLY matter?

[HarryStotle]

And, when I ask “how can I ascertain the truth value of a statement?”, I am using me as a general person… colloquially asking “how can anyone ascertain the truth value of that statement?”

Now the question becomes how do we rigorously inspect the quality of reason? That step implies that truth itself can be both used to assess reason and reason to assess statements purporting to be the truth. In other words, truth seeking is a bilateral enterprise since to know the truth we as intelligent agents have to begin by being truthful and we can only be truthful by our proximity and correspondency to the truth.

The same issue re-emerges regarding moral truth. We have to be good moral agents in order to properly ascertain moral truths. So how is the quality of your own intellectual or moral agency assessed if you (or mankind in general) are the measure of all things? There’s your pickle.

I make no such claim, truth itself is the measure. It even measures the quality of our truth seeking. That does, admittedly allow a tension between truth and any agent who seeks truth, but in working through that tension a fuller awareness of truth by the agent is possible.

Your next step is even more problematic, since it entails that truth is simply relative to human minds, i.e., that you define truth as simply that which accords with the human mind and that no such thing as truth exists outside of our capacity to determine it. Is that where you will go?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Truth to me is both the absence of deception and the factual reality.

In the context of the Commandments’ prohibition on lying, I think in terms of the absence of deception, unless it is for the preservation of life or in some circumstances where the person seeking information is not entitled to have it. I am sorry that this edition of the Catechism removed the part about the person seeking information not being entitled to have it.

In the context of our faith, the truth is Jesus Christ. We are not privy to all of the truths of our faith simply because Jesus is God and we are not capable with our human minds of understanding all aspects of God. So what we can’t prove true, we have to just “know is true” by faith. This can be difficult. But if we use both our mind and heart to understand, we can achieve the nearest knowledge of truth that a human can have.

 

[pocaracas]

Your problem is that you have no source outside of yourself, with the possible exception of an exaggerated view of science with which to back your grounding view of truth.

Everything that you wrote and came after this stems from the mistake you made at the end of this sentence. Not truth, reality.
Truth is a sort of metadata about a statement. The statement “the Earth circles the Sun” is has its truth value set to true, nowadays… but, way back, a guy called Galileo was forced to retract this finding of his, so that the statement “the Earth is the center of creation” (with the Sun going around) would remain true in the minds of people.
From a human’s perspective, from the surface of the planet, it seems obvious that the Sun is what goes around. So it was true, like I said, to the best of our ability, that the Sun was circling the Earth. Reality turned out to be a bit more complex than what our simple exercise of looking up implied and, as our ability grew, our statement of what circles what changed - the previously true statement became false, while Galileo’s became true.
Reality, however, never changed.

Whether or not science is “mankind’s best tool” with regard to ascertaining truth is debatable. It may be the best tool that we have so far by which to come to know the truth about the physical world,

Yeah, you’re right, sorry about the imprecision. “the best we have so far” is a better way to put it.

but you would have to make an a priori assumption to the effect that the physical world is all there is

Why would I assume that there is anything else?

we cannot have arrived at full certainty with regard to the truth qua truth without arriving at what fully explains itself as well as explains everything else.

Oh… I see, you desire there to be something that explains everything and itself, so you made one up used the one readily available through millennia of superstitious belief by humans… the one that philosophers hijacked to incorporate that explanation and thus validate their pre-existing superstition. Gotcha!

Sound reason scaffolded by principles of formal logic is a better option

What about the events that science calls singularities? Logic may, for all we know, very well break in those… well… our logic. But we don’t know… you don’t know… you’re working under the assumption that our logic remains valid. Maybe it does… but maybe it doesn’t.
So, no… science is still, it seems to me, the best tool, certainly aided by reason where appropriate.

 

[pocaracas]

So how is the quality of your own intellectual or moral agency assessed if you (or mankind in general) are the measure of all things? There’s your pickle.

Simple, we do the best we can, given our history and nature and use lots and lots of trial and error.
Much of that trial and error has probably seeped into our subconscious behavior and is responsible for what you may call “moral truths”. Why would mankind not be the measure by which mankind should treat itself? Why would you wish there to be an external thing administering rules (and punishments)? Can’t mankind be responsible for itself?

As for everything else, you’re still mistaking truth for reality.

 

[PJM]

The pickle is that you don’t seem to be operating under the same concept of “truth” that I am (the one I outlined in my first reply on this thread).

And, when I ask “how can I ascertain the truth value of a statement?”, I am using me as a general person… colloquially asking “how can anyone ascertain the truth value of that statement?

LOVED YOUR COMMENTS

Truth: is what you choose to believe in alignment with realty; with facts.

Religious Truths: Do you’re beliefs align fully with those on Faith AND Morals taught by the CC who alone HAS the Holy Spirit and Jesus as the warranty of their teaching only GOD’S Truths on these two broad topics. Mt 16: 15-19; John 17:17-20 & Mt 28:18*20

God Bless my friend
Patrick [the OP]

 

[PJM]

PJM, The Nun’s said telling the truth was good and lying was bad. The only way of getting close to truth is to have the subject verified. So far scientific method of evaluation is the closest to truth as we have been able ge

From GREAT grandpa Pat:rofl:

I had nuns for grades 1-8 & Brothers of Holy Cross for High School

So for the sake of discussion [I’m the OP of this THREAD]

Are we to rely on science to prove or disprove religious TRUTHS?

Continued Blessings

Patrick

 

[Kts1816]

Sometimes i dont care gor historical truth,Truth according to science.
I prefer prefer perpetual virginity and such stuff…or we will be lost into our own evil

 

[PJM]

OK but’ can and who does who get to define God’s Words?

Blessings

Hmmmmm:blush:

Let me “guess” here [I’m the OP of this THREAD]

Could it be His One True Church and Faith which is historically and biblically proveable:slightly_smiling_face:

May God guide your path
Patrick

 

[GrandPaRay]

Hi Patrick, No, science only can verify facts. The history of religions which started over 4000 years ago for people is very interesting. I am interested in getting to the facts as historians continue to dig up how cultures developed their beliefs. Sometimes the facts go against what we were told. Like the theory of evolution.

 

[PJM]

Hi Patrick, No, science only can verify facts. The history of religions which started over 4000 years ago for people is very interesting. I am interested in getting to the facts as historians continue to dig up how cultures developed their beliefs. Sometimes the facts go against what we were told. Like the theory of evolution.

Many thanks my friend

Continued Blessings

Partick

 

[GrandPaRay]

Jared2914, There are so many fallacies in your statement it is impossible to answer. So might i suggest to viewers go to the web site yourlogicalfallacyis.com This would really help viewers.