Trying again regarding beliefs on homosexual acts

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ToeInTheWater

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I was berated before for posting a hypothetical question of a woman choosing either to have a gay couple adopt her child or have an abortion, for not asking a straight forward question.

So, here is the straightforward question:

Does anyone believe that

(1) Homosexual acts are sinful and grave matter, possibly mortal sin

AND

(2) Such acts are not “MORE” sinful than heterosexual sexual sins, nor are “gays” necessarily worse sinners overall than “straights”.

It seemed that at one point, many on CAF believed this. And actually followed the Catechism regarding unjust discrimination against “gays”.

But recently, it seems there has been more polarization on the issue, and an idea that one either has to believe (1) Homosexual acts are sinful, and the vast majority of “gays” are selfish, promiscous, unrepentant sinners with no redeeming qualities or (2) There’s nothing wrong with homosexual acts, the Church is completely mistaken.

Or maybe it’s just that the “moderates” on this issue don’t feel passionately enough to argue a “middle way”?
 
Well, to some extent that is polemic you’re forced to choose between.

I have no knowledge that it is anywhere said (at least with binding authority) that homosexual sex is worse than heterosexual fornication/adultery (especially since the validation of heterosexual immorality in a society directly leads to the validation of homosexual immorality in a society), but they are both sins of a grave matter.

Committing sin of a grave matter cannot possibly ever be a good thing. The only thing that remains is the degree of culpability in an individual’s life. I’ll apply a relevant Bible passage instead of the Catechism, because it’s still by far what I know best (and as a teacher I’m very skeptical that short, to-the-point sentences are the best way to appreciate a concept anyway. The Catechism was published in '92 as a form of reference material):

Matthew 11: 21-24:
  • 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum,
will you be exalted to heaven?
No, you will be brought down to Hades.

For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that on the day of judgment it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom than for you.”*

There is also an opinion - which I am unable to grasp - where some Catholics are willing to accept Church teaching, and yet don’t believe that homosexual behavior has any sort of harmful effect in the temporal world… homosexual sex is gravely sinful, but this doesn’t have any impact on our temporal world. It’s just this free-floating violation against charity that doesn’t actually mean anything in our lives.

The idea of being able to maintain my faith seems inconceivable if I were to believe that. It means that as Catholics, we would be demanding something upon an entire group of people which will have no impact on their life or anybody else’s life. It would mean that we are indeed fools tyrants, and bigots for being against SSM (among other things), because we are excluding somebody from something without cause, which is textbook discrimination.

All things that are sinful, and have supernatural consequences, will likewise manifest in our world with temporal consequences.
 
I believe what Pope Benedict XVI said.
  1. It’s intrinsically disordered.
  2. It goes against nature.
  3. It’s a sin. It’s a worse sin than fornication among heterosexual people because of #2.
 
boomerang said:
I believe what Pope Benedict XVI said.
  1. It’s intrinsically disordered.
  2. It goes against nature.
  3. It’s a sin. It’s a worse sin than fornication among heterosexual people because of #2.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, does Benedict XVI specifically state the 3rd point? (That because it goes against nature, it is worse than fornication?) Do you have that reference handy?

This reasoning would also mean that masturbation is worse than physical adultery with a prostitute, as opposed to them both being sins of a grave matter.
 
I think most homosexuals on this forum (and there are a surprising number of us), all agree that acting according to our nature is wrong. But I don’t think it’s any worse than what heterosexuals get up to sometimes. But of course that’s just me. I don’t have any proof for that other than because it would be hard to think that one side of me doing something would be somehow worse than the other side of me doing it. I mean it’s still me. Still the same surrendering of my will to do wrong. Still the same problems. I don’t know.

-Trident
 
Fornication and sodomy are both intrinsically disordered despite many heterosexuals attempting to claim the former is not.
 
So this link does describe the sins that cry to heaven among which is sodomy:
catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-sins-that-cry-to-heaven-for-vengeance-and-sins-against-the-holy-spirit

That being said, I cannot agree with either of your descriptions:
But recently, it seems there has been more polarization on the issue, and an idea that one either has to believe (1) Homosexual acts are sinful, and the vast majority of “gays” are selfish, promiscous, unrepentant sinners with no redeeming qualities or (2) There’s nothing wrong with homosexual acts, the Church is completely mistaken.
Click to expand...
I do believe that sexual sins of any kind are selfish and turn us inwards which causes us to grow in more selfishness elsewhere. As a flight attendant I worked with many homosexuals who were selfish and many who were kind and selfless. I also know that for those who are not given much by way of formation or have been abused in some way, not as much will be expected of them. For this reason I am quite certain that many homosexuals will enter heaven before I do.

As for the comparison to masturbation or promiscuity, God was more angered by Onan for spilling his seed than committing adultery. This shows that God is not pleased by sexual acts which thwart the procreative nature for which they were designed. That would include many heterosexual sins (contraception…etc) as well as homosexual. This is why Mother Theresa said that contraception is a greater evil than abortion; it denies the soul it’s creation where abortion will still allow for the soul eternal life.

I’m sorry if people were rude to your posturing of the question about homosexual adoption vs abortion. I find it to be an interesting dilemma. I can’t say I find it really feasible that the only couple available to adopt would be homosexual. However since abortion is a sin for which people have been excommunicated, I would say that most definitely saving the life of the child is the paramount consideration. Plus we never know if a homosexual couple is in the process of repenting from their acts and pursuing a path to greater holiness behind the scenes. It would also be necessary to know if they are Catholic or how much knowledge (or misinformation) of the faith they have in order to judge. That is why it’s best to assume the best of people and leave the judgement to God unless you have absolute certainty of all the facts.
 
Joie_de_Vivre said:
Fornication and sodomy are both intrinsically disordered despite many heterosexuals attempting to claim the former is not.
Click to expand...
Why would you say fornication is disordered? Grave sin, yes, but it is ordered in that there is male and female complimentary.
 
A mortal sin is a mortal sin regardless of the person committing it is homosexual or heterosexual. A mortal sin puts us outside a grace-filled connection with Christ, and only sacramental confession can repair that.

I dont try to “rank order” all the different types of mortal sins---- I just concentrate on if my sins are mortal or venial. If mortal, I get to confession asap.
 
TK421 said:
This reasoning would also mean that masturbation is worse than physical adultery with a prostitute, as opposed to them both being sins of a grave matter.
Click to expand...
Don’t quote me, but I’m pretty sure Aquinas was of that point of view precisely because of the disordered nature of that particular sin.
 
anonymous_in_fl said:
A mortal sin is a mortal sin regardless of the person committing it is homosexual or heterosexual. A mortal sin puts us outside a grace-filled connection with Christ, and only sacramental confession can repair that.

I dont try to “rank order” all the different types of mortal sins---- I just concentrate on if my sins are mortal or venial. If mortal, I get to confession asap.
Click to expand...
All mortal sin has the same effect on the soul, but the Church has traditionally said that some mortal sins are objectively worse than others. See the “sins that cry to heaven for vengeance”.
 
anonymous_in_fl said:
A mortal sin is a mortal sin regardless of the person committing it is homosexual or heterosexual. A mortal sin puts us outside a grace-filled connection with Christ, and only sacramental confession can repair that.

I dont try to “rank order” all the different types of mortal sins---- I just concentrate on if my sins are mortal or venial. If mortal, I get to confession asap.
Click to expand...
Exactly.
Attempts to "qualify " certain sins because we feel badly for a particular group…doesn’t change anything.

Sin outside of heterosexual marriage is wrong.
For anyone. A teen, and adult, gay or straight.
 
ToeInTheWater said:
I was berated before for posting a hypothetical question of a woman choosing either to have a gay couple adopt her child or have an abortion, for not asking a straight forward question.

So, here is the straightforward question:

Does anyone believe that

(1) Homosexual acts are sinful and grave matter, possibly mortal sin

AND

(2) Such acts are not “MORE” sinful than heterosexual sexual sins, nor are “gays” necessarily worse sinners overall than “straights”.

It seemed that at one point, many on CAF believed this. And actually followed the Catechism regarding unjust discrimination against “gays”.

But recently, it seems there has been more polarization on the issue, and an idea that one either has to believe (1) Homosexual acts are sinful, and the vast majority of “gays” are selfish, promiscous, unrepentant sinners with no redeeming qualities or (2) There’s nothing wrong with homosexual acts, the Church is completely mistaken.

Or maybe it’s just that the “moderates” on this issue don’t feel passionately enough to argue a “middle way”?
Click to expand...
  1. Yes, homosexual acts are gravely wrong. In almost all cases, they are mortally sinful.
  2. In many cases, homosexual acts are a more serious type of sin than heterosexual sins such as fornication. They are both sex outside of marriage and disordered acts. Of course, some heterosexual sins involve disordered acts as well. Homosexuals are not necessarily worse sinners than heterosexuals. We all sin in various ways and cannot be classified solely on the basis of any sexual sin we may commit.
  3. No one should be subject to unjust discrimination due to sexual orientation. The sticky point to this is how to define unjust discrimination. Most orthodox Catholics would not consider it unjust discrimination to resist same-sex marriage or to require that teachers and parish ministers be living according to Church teaching. Others might consider that quite unjust. I would say that the latter are incorrectly trying to apply a secular/civil law definition to a theological concept.
 
Corki said:
  1. Yes, homosexual acts are gravely wrong. In almost all cases, they are mortally sinful.
  2. In many cases, homosexual acts are a more serious type of sin than heterosexual sins such as fornication. They are both sex outside of marriage and disordered acts. Of course, some heterosexual sins involve disordered acts as well. Homosexuals are not necessarily worse sinners than heterosexuals. We all sin in various ways and cannot be classified solely on the basis of any sexual sin we may commit.
  3. No one should be subject to unjust discrimination due to sexual orientation. The sticky point to this is how to define unjust discrimination. Most orthodox Catholics would not consider it unjust discrimination to resist same-sex marriage or to require that teachers and parish ministers be living according to Church teaching. Others might consider that quite unjust. I would say that the latter are incorrectly trying to apply a secular/civil law definition to a theological concept.
Click to expand...
Yes. Well stated.
 
I think the issue is more about private sin versus legalizing homosexual behavior. Homosexual people are people. In the past, we all got along at the major hospital where I worked. I did not think for a moment about what they did on their free time. I certainly did not fear them. But privacy has also been abandoned by certain LGBT persons and groups, leading to the creation of ‘gay marriage.’

Here is what the Church tells us:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

We’re all sinners.

Ed
 
It would be better for a gay couple to adopt a child, than for the child to be aborted. But that answer does not imply approval for gay relationships or adoption by a gay couple.

The more disordered the act, the greater the sin. If one lie is a venial sin, the same lie accompanied by malice, is more sinful (perhaps mortal).

For sexual sins, the greater the disorder, the greater the sin. Generally, homosexual sexual acts are more sinful than, say, heterosexual sex outside of marriage, because of the greater disorder. But in specific cases, heterosexual sins may be worse. For example, heterosexual rape is more gravely immoral than consensual homosexual sex. Rape of a child is graver still.

But I don’t think it is necessarily helpful to rank all the mortal sins, in order of sinfulness.
 
Ron_Conte said:
But I don’t think it is necessarily helpful to rank all the mortal sins, in order of sinfulness.
Click to expand...
No it is not necessarily helpful with regards to the fact that all mortal sin cut us off from the life of grace. But it is helpful insofar as how gravely the sin offends God. And that is something that has been entirely absent from this discussion. The saints did not avoid sin for fear of hell, but because they loved God above all else and abhorred sin because of their love for Him. While we can content ourselves by saying “all mortal sins cut off the life of grace - end of discussion”, we fail to take into account how gravely we have wounded Our Lord by the particular sin we have committed. So really it is helpful to “rank mortal sins”, because or main concern should not be whether the sin cuts off the life of grace, but how deeply the sin offends Our Lord (think of the Act of Contrition:* O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven,and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,Who are all good and deserving of all my love*.). And the Church has always taught that some sins do indeed offend Him more so than others. For example, as has already been pointed out, homosexual sins are objectively more offensive to God than their “corresponding” heterosexual sins.
 
A mortal sin is mortal …I doubt one will send you to hell and another will not!

If someone has homosexual feelings, it’s not a sin unless he/she acts on them.

If 2 homosexuals have sex…it’s a mortal sin.

If 2 homosexuals get married & have sex …it’s still a mortal sin. The same as 2 non - married heterosexuals…mortal sin!
 
If you steal $100,000 from a bank, it’s a mortal sin & will send you to hell if you don’t repent.

If you shoot & kill the bank teller, it’s a mortal sin & it will send you to hell if you don’t repent, but although it’s worse than stealing, you go to the same place…maybe the murder will cause you to suffer more intensely? 🤷
 
truetofaith said:
If you steal $100,000 from a bank, it’s a mortal sin & will send you to hell if you don’t repent.

If you shoot & kill the bank teller, it’s a mortal sin & it will send you to hell if you don’t repent, but although it’s worse than stealing, you go to the same place…maybe the murder will cause you to suffer more intensely? 🤷
Click to expand...
While both sins are mortal (presuming for this scenario that the stealing is mortal), the murder of another human being objectively offends God much more so than the act of steal $100,000. We should always be foremost concerned with how greatly our actions offend Our Lord, with the fear of punishment being a secondary reason.
 
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