Trying again regarding beliefs on homosexual acts

[ToeInTheWater]

I think this quote from a pastor in the UK (not Catholic, but holds to traditional Christian rejection of homosexual acts) expresses the false dichotomy I see some Christians falling into:

thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/sexuality_and_silence

The recent Independent article on Vicky Beeching’s sexuality is just the latest in a long line of similar articles in the popular media, each of which assumes that there are two camps when it comes to Christians and sexuality:

On the one hand, retrograde bigots who hate gays, troll, write abusive emails, perpetuate homophobia, and assume all same-sex attraction is demonic, and on the other hand, courageous heroes of compassion who are either gay themselves or are sure that God is absolutely fine with gay sex.

If those in the middle – those who love gay people, pastor gay people, care for gay people, and continue to preach the gospel and teach biblical truth to gay people – sit this one out, then the dominant narrative is simply reinforced.

As for those asking “who on CAF condones gay sex” – I don’t think they post in Moral Theology often, and I doubt it’s within forum etiquette to call them out. However, I can think of some Catholic posters who are regulars on other subforums, who make it clear that they dissent from Catholic Church teachings about this topic.

 

[Rau]

I think this quote from a pastor in the UK (not Catholic, but holds to traditional Christian rejection of homosexual acts) expresses the false dichotomy I see some Christians falling into:

thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/sexuality_and_silence

As for those asking “who on CAF condones gay sex” – I don’t think they post in Moral Theology often, and I doubt it’s within forum etiquette to call them out. However, I can think of some Catholic posters who are regulars on other subforums, who make it clear that they dissent from Catholic Church teachings about this topic.

To be ok with two men (say) engaged in a sexual relationship makes for a very sizable departure from the tenets of Catholicism. I can well understand the compassion that may prompt one in that direction, but how it can be rationalized as “a good thing, about which the Church is in error”, is beyond me.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

To be ok with two men (say) engaged in a sexual relationship makes for a very sizable departure from the tenets of Catholicism. I can well understand the compassion that may prompt one in that direction, but how it can be rationalized as “a good thing, about which the Church is in error”, is beyond me.

I think the whole idea of “Gay Marriage”, though unthinkable even in most secular circles even, say, 10 years ago, actually has a strange appeal to some Christians (and I suppose others from religious traditions that frown on homosexual acts), who want to be both compassionate and uphold “traditional values”

The reasoning seems to go along the lines of. “Well of course I don’t support promiscuous gay sex, the kind that can spread AIDS, But it’s unfair that those born straight have a legitimate outlet for their sexuality, while those born gay don’t!” And apparently their “compromise” is to allow for same-sex marriage, but also to hold gays to the same standards as straights when it comes to sex outside of marriage,

Not saying I agree with this line of reasoning, but it somewhat understandable.

 

[Rau]

I think the whole idea of “Gay Marriage”, though unthinkable even in most secular circles even, say, 10 years ago, actually has a strange appeal to some Christians (and I suppose others from religious traditions that frown on homosexual acts), who want to be both compassionate and uphold “traditional values”

The reasoning seems to go along the lines of. “Well of course I don’t support promiscuous gay sex, the kind that can spread AIDS, But it’s unfair that those born straight have a legitimate outlet for their sexuality, while those born gay don’t!” And apparently their “compromise” is to allow for same-sex marriage, but also to hold gays to the same standards as straights when it comes to sex outside of marriage,

Not saying I agree with this line of reasoning, but it somewhat understandable.

I guess one could say it ticks some boxes, such as compassion and monagamy, but these are not unique to Christians. And then there is all that it ignores…

In today’s world, there is s great unwillingness to accept that bad breaks can beset any of us. Thus, the right to pursue ones desires becomes paramount.

 

[Kurisu35712]

No it is not necessarily helpful with regards to the fact that all mortal sin cut us off from the life of grace. But it is helpful insofar as how gravely the sin offends God. And that is something that has been entirely absent from this discussion. The saints did not avoid sin for fear of hell, but because they loved God above all else and abhorred sin because of their love for Him. While we can content ourselves by saying “all mortal sins cut off the life of grace - end of discussion”, we fail to take into account how gravely we have wounded Our Lord by the particular sin we have committed. So really it is helpful to “rank mortal sins”, because or main concern should not be whether the sin cuts off the life of grace, but how deeply the sin offends Our Lord (think of the Act of Contrition:* O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee,and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven,and the pains of hell, but most of all because they offend Thee, my God,Who are all good and deserving of all my love*.). And the Church has always taught that some sins do indeed offend Him more so than others. For example, as has already been pointed out, homosexual sins are objectively more offensive to God than their “corresponding” heterosexual sins.

This is an important point. None but God Himself can say whether a person will be held mortally culpable for a given sin, but the argument between whether a mortal sin is worse than some other mortal sin is only useful insofar as it gives us more perspective on the damage done to our souls. Our goal should not be “graduate life with no mortal sins so that we can go to Heaven and avoid Hell,” that’s how we end up with a mediocre life. The reason we avoid sin is not to avoid punishment, but rather we avoid sin because we do not want to cause God pain, metaphorically speaking. Every unrepented mortal sin is a direct denial of the sacrifice of Jesus’s Passion. He died for us so that we can join Him in Heaven despite our sins. To commit mortal sin is literally to actively communicate that His Love and sacrifice are not worth as much as our own temporal pleasure.

Often when we commit a sin, whether mortal or venial, we do not think of the consequences in terms of “by doing this, am I harming someone I love?” And yet, by choosing to sin, we are hurting the one Person… three Persons? Who love us more than anyone or anything will ever be able to do. We will go out of our way to avoid doing harm to our best friends, and will go to great lengths to repair damage to our relationships with them, and yet when we think of our relationship with God, we tend to think in very clinical terms of whether or not we’ve broken the rules and what steps we need to take in order to reverse that. We should choose not to sin out of love for God and because we cherish our relationship with Him, rather than fear of punishment or a sense of obligation.

To answer the OP, I do mostly agree with your premise. Homosexual acts are a grave matter, and if the other criteria are present, constitute a mortal sin for those who commit them. I can’t say whether they’re more sinful than heterosexual sins, as they are different sins despite both being sexual; however, I do not believe that gay people are worse sinners than straight people. All of us sin, and all require reconciliation and the understanding that God, in fact, does not want to punish us, but on the contrary wants to be able to spend eternity with us and provide for us everything that is good.

 

[truetofaith]

A mortal sin is mortal …I doubt one will send you to hell and another will not!

If someone has homosexual feelings, it’s not a sin unless he/she acts on them.

If 2 homosexuals have sex…it’s a mortal sin.

If 2 homosexuals get married & have sex …it’s still a mortal sin. The same as 2 non - married heterosexuals…mortal sin!

I wanted to repeat my #18 post.

Remember God condemns homosexuality in Leviticus 20 : 13.

 

[1990Domer]

I think the whole idea of “Gay Marriage”, though unthinkable even in most secular circles even, say, 10 years ago, actually has a strange appeal to some Christians (and I suppose others from religious traditions that frown on homosexual acts), who want to be both compassionate and uphold “traditional values”

The reasoning seems to go along the lines of. “Well of course I don’t support promiscuous gay sex, the kind that can spread AIDS, But it’s unfair that those born straight have a legitimate outlet for their sexuality, while those born gay don’t!” And apparently their “compromise” is to allow for same-sex marriage, but also to hold gays to the same standards as straights when it comes to sex outside of marriage,

Not saying I agree with this line of reasoning, but it somewhat understandable.

Sex is a privledge, not a right. And more people need to learn that SSM is often an open marriage. A close relative is on his third. I won’t exactly number his sex partners, as it makes my stomach turn to think…but it is in the triple digits. It’s a tough cross to bear, but I know many more with, what I would argue, are heavier ones. God bless.

 

[1990Domer]

I guess one could say it ticks some boxes, such as compassion and monagamy, but these are not unique to Christians. And then there is all that it ignores…

In today’s world, there is s great unwillingness to accept that bad breaks can beset any of us. Thus, the right to pursue ones desires becomes paramount.

I had to respond to this post. My poor son is on the autism spectrum…specifically, high functioning or Aspergers Syndrome. I don’t know the difference. The kid is smart enough to know that he is quirky, his social skills are off and that his intelligence can match kids in college, especially in science (chemistry and physics). He is constantly teased. Two years in Catholic school left him severely depressed, suicidal, and self-injuring himself. If I even encountered the parents of these kids, I can’t say I would have anything holy or dignified to say. Their lack of parenting, despite all our attempts to provide resources to the school, has led us to keep our child inexpensive mental therapies.

There is no compassion for him…even false compassion. He still has scant friends. I don’t see droves defending his sadness or cause, except for his parents and grandparents and his parents, of course. If nothing else, at least the SSA community has a conglomerate of friends and politicians willing to take their sides. Heck, the POTUS has made this his pet project. Can the same be said for special needs kids? No, because they are throw away children due, in part, because they cannot function like the rest of us.

If their life less sacred and beautiful in the eyes of God? No way! Do they show heroic virtue in how they and their families live their lives? You bet.

I would live a celibate like if I could trade off my son’s pain–even for a day.

Sorry for the rant, but there are way more people suffering out there from church rejection than those with SSA. The self-centered views that all the needs of a small select group of people is, I’m sorry to say, selfish.

 

[Rau]

I had to respond to this post. My poor son is on the autism spectrum…specifically, high functioning or Aspergers Syndrome. I don’t know the difference. The kid is smart enough to know that he is quirky, his social skills are off and that his intelligence can match kids in college, especially in science (chemistry and physics). He is constantly teased. Two years in Catholic school left him severely depressed, suicidal, and self-injuring himself. If I even encountered the parents of these kids, I can’t say I would have anything holy or dignified to say. Their lack of parenting, despite all our attempts to provide resources to the school, has led us to keep our child inexpensive mental therapies.

There is no compassion for him…even false compassion. He still has scant friends. I don’t see droves defending his sadness or cause, except for his parents and grandparents and his parents, of course. If nothing else, at least the SSA community has a conglomerate of friends and politicians willing to take their sides. Heck, the POTUS has made this his pet project. Can the same be said for special needs kids? No, because they are throw away children due, in part, because they cannot function like the rest of us.

If their life less sacred and beautiful in the eyes of God? No way! Do they show heroic virtue in how they and their families live their lives? You bet.

I would live a celibate like if I could trade off my son’s pain–even for a day.

Sorry for the rant, but there are way more people suffering out there from church rejection than those with SSA. The self-centered views that all the needs of a small select group of people is, I’m sorry to say, selfish.

I sympathize and have no issue with what you write, though I dont see the connection to my post, to which you addressed these remarks.

 

[Trident_H]

I had to respond to this post. My poor son is on the autism spectrum…specifically, high functioning or Aspergers Syndrome. I don’t know the difference. The kid is smart enough to know that he is quirky, his social skills are off and that his intelligence can match kids in college, especially in science (chemistry and physics). He is constantly teased. Two years in Catholic school left him severely depressed, suicidal, and self-injuring himself. If I even encountered the parents of these kids, I can’t say I would have anything holy or dignified to say. Their lack of parenting, despite all our attempts to provide resources to the school, has led us to keep our child inexpensive mental therapies.

There is no compassion for him…even false compassion. He still has scant friends. I don’t see droves defending his sadness or cause, except for his parents and grandparents and his parents, of course. If nothing else, at least the SSA community has a conglomerate of friends and politicians willing to take their sides. Heck, the POTUS has made this his pet project. Can the same be said for special needs kids? No, because they are throw away children due, in part, because they cannot function like the rest of us.

If their life less sacred and beautiful in the eyes of God? No way! Do they show heroic virtue in how they and their families live their lives? You bet.

I would live a celibate like if I could trade off my son’s pain–even for a day.

Sorry for the rant, but there are way more people suffering out there from church rejection than those with SSA. The self-centered views that all the needs of a small select group of people is, I’m sorry to say, selfish.

I’m so sorry to hear about your pain. It’s a good thing for some of us to find out about what troubles others of us here have. I mean I feel so badly for your son. I know what it’s like in a way. I was bullied a lot at school because I was ‘different’. But I mean I at least had a few friends who would hang with me and understand a bit.

I just wish that insight into what we were doing to each other as kids would come a lot sooner. I mean why does it have to take getting all the way into adulthood before we realize this stuff? And now it’s too late to change anything. And the next generation goes through it.

I’m sorry for your son. And for you guys as you watch him suffer this.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[SuperLuigi]

Exactly.
Attempts to "qualify " certain sins because we feel badly for a particular group…doesn’t change anything.

Sin outside of heterosexual marriage is wrong.
For anyone. A teen, and adult, gay or straight.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I had to respond to this post. My poor son is on the autism spectrum…specifically, high functioning or Aspergers Syndrome. I don’t know the difference. The kid is smart enough to know that he is quirky, his social skills are off and that his intelligence can match kids in college, especially in science (chemistry and physics). He is constantly teased. Two years in Catholic school left him severely depressed, suicidal, and self-injuring himself. If I even encountered the parents of these kids, I can’t say I would have anything holy or dignified to say. Their lack of parenting, despite all our attempts to provide resources to the school, has led us to keep our child inexpensive mental therapies.

There is no compassion for him…even false compassion. He still has scant friends. I don’t see droves defending his sadness or cause, except for his parents and grandparents and his parents, of course. If nothing else, at least the SSA community has a conglomerate of friends and politicians willing to take their sides. Heck, the POTUS has made this his pet project. Can the same be said for special needs kids? No, because they are throw away children due, in part, because they cannot function like the rest of us.

If their life less sacred and beautiful in the eyes of God? No way! Do they show heroic virtue in how they and their families live their lives? You bet.

I would live a celibate like if I could trade off my son’s pain–even for a day.

Sorry for the rant, but there are way more people suffering out there from church rejection than those with SSA. The self-centered views that all the needs of a small select group of people is, I’m sorry to say, selfish.

Sent PM

 

[1990Domer]

I sympathize and have no issue with what you write, though I dont see the connection to my post, to which you addressed these remarks.

The bad breaks got me…and yes, it is paramount to strive for what they wait…good, bad or indifferent. Our kids don’t have that ability or that voice or a unified multi-billion dollar play book/lobbying interests.

 

[1990Domer]

I’m so sorry to hear about your pain. It’s a good thing for some of us to find out about what troubles others of us here have. I mean I feel so badly for your son. I know what it’s like in a way. I was bullied a lot at school because I was ‘different’. But I mean I at least had a few friends who would hang with me and understand a bit.

I just wish that insight into what we were doing to each other as kids would come a lot sooner. I mean why does it have to take getting all the way into adulthood before we realize this stuff? And now it’s too late to change anything. And the next generation goes through it.

I’m sorry for your son. And for you guys as you watch him suffer this.

Peace.

-Trident

Well, this is why I am giving a bullying talk on 10/3 to a large deanery of churches…to shake some people up that business as usual is leading to mental illness. I will not let myself be silent anymore!

 

[Trident_H]

Well, this is why I am giving a bullying talk on 10/3 to a large deanery of churches…to shake some people up that business as usual is leading to mental illness. I will not let myself be silent anymore!

That’s the way. Don’t sit idly by. Good for you.

 

[edlinked]

In my understandings abortion is so evil in any circumstance because it cuts any of the possibilities that life gives (including life itself, so it cuts it from the “start”). So in my opinion in any case it can’t be an option. Meaning, that you can be and decide to act good even If you are between “wolves” (you can decide to do good even if you are raised in a bad “environment”). We don’t believe in the power of God, but God made everything, but of course this is hard to “grasp”.

We need to keep in the conscience that in the bad that we can do, God can change it to right. By stopping the incorrect actions and starting the correct ones. The act of abortion is always evil but the person that decides to act it, always has hope. You see that we ourselves in everything that we do are the ones that make despair a way, but “the hope” is always there even if we don’t “see” it or don’t want to see it. Detest the sin not the sinner, for we sinners are “ignorant” and we don’t see true good were it stands. Good only stands at the “Alpha and Omega”.

Now if homosexuals were to adopt they would state that their union is ok, therefore stating that marriage is ok between homosexuals. And this idea goes against everything the church teaches. Homosexual ways are not the way, even if they might feel so right (for “some” of course). The same way that an alcoholic feels that alcohol is a necessity for him (this is just an example, some things can “feel” so good but be so bad).
But love, goodness, righteousness are not subjective, meaning they do not depend on the person, they depend on the one that is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."” Revelation 22, 13

A homosexual like any person has the power to decide what he takes up as good or bad. Sometimes things are harder of course. That’s why the standard is love, the standard is God, for we need to become perfect, we are all called for sainthood. With this I am just stating that everyone has difficulty to achieve sainthood, for it is denying ourselves for Gods ways. Sainthood as a decision is not meant to be easy, in its difficulty we show the sincerity of our ways (meaning the “purity” of following the commandments).

Marriage is the union of man and a woman that through love (true “catholic” love with the subjective and primarily the objective profile (affirming the value of the person)) embark in helping the Creator in creating, in other words procreating, and creates a commitment (from the free will) that they will always love each other until they die (they need to make a decision, and there is no “timeframe” with love of persons, they need to continue to love each other, keeping that commitment, for it to be true love (God is love, then love defined from God is “eternal”. In humans it is “while” we are “alive”)). The primarily end of marriage objectively speaking is procreation, secondly comes the relationship of the man and the woman (their “union” as persons), and tertiary comes the correct direction of concupiscence.

Now that we know this, marriage as in a Catholic marriage, it cannot be performed by two people of the same sex, because of these ends.

Apart from this you have what the Catholic Church states as the meaning of love and its integration In the relation of a man and a woman. A man and a woman can only have sexual intercourse in marriage where the love (if built correctly) is fully mature. When this love is fully mature, the sexual intercourse between them, evolves to a personal level where there is no using. The only way that the sexual act can stop or cut out its utilitarian property, is the common end of procreation. Then pleasure stops being the end of the actual act. Why is this important, because a person cannot be used as tools for an end, as persons are ends by themselves and because of the nature of their specific creation. We are created under the image of God, where everyone has the final end of God. (We are top ends, this means that using for pleasure or for anything else would be degrading, to the essence of persons).

I believe the Church understand that two homosexuals can “love” each other, because Gods commandment to love is universal, so that’s not the problem (love thy neighbor as you love yourself, or the complete one: love others as I love you). Where the problem resides is that bodily love and sexual love, the one needed for procreation can only be performed by persons of different sex. This type of love is only permitted between a man and a woman, if not, the act or the sexual acts are mainly for pleasure leaving pleasure as the final end. This is the same case as in masturbation or any sexual act, even heterosexual ones, were both sexual organs do not join, and the hope of procreation is not possible, or not given a chance. It would be “using” as experiencing pleasure because of the other, or because of stimulation.

 

[edlinked]

Finally (to some degree) I believe (personal conclusion) that an “egocentric” tendency exists in homosexuality. Meaning that I believe that an objective (finality) of procreation is to unite the two persons of the human species (male and female), this goes with what the Gospel states of the creation of the world when God made Adam and Eve. I explain myself further. Love is not found in “I”, so for procreation it needs two, and it doesn’t need any two, it needs a man and a woman. This means that man is not greater than the woman and the woman is not greater than the man. Objectively speaking one cannot be without the other, because of this existential property or rule. Is not a matter of just feelings, subjectively speaking, it is with responsibility, with duty, as I said to love is something everyone should aspire to do (in respect to justice toward the Creator). So the proper union of marriage that God intended was that a man and a woman became one, this is where in some sense, the we becomes an “I” again, but what happens; a new person comes out, changing that “I” to “us” or “we”. Keeping love not only in “I”. But keep in mind that spousal love is the reciprocal self giving of each others “I” (that’s the beauty of true personal love). With this thought, homosexuality in a sense cuts the existential property of marriage and with it, it cuts the union of the male and the female person, and “states” that adam or eve for “me” is not that important, tossing the creation that God intended for each other, away. This is important because then, homosexuals want offspring, and this offspring does not come from the spousal love that heterosexuals have, because homosexuals will see the additional partner just as a means to an end. So we see the utilitarian property in full mode, and people cannot and must not be used. Finally homosexuals cannot give a child the full grasp of humanity as they are one “species” short, they can give him “love”, but not the love that God intended, the one that comes from “adam” and “eve”. Marriage is responsibility as it needs love (it is created by Gods ways), it cannot be subjective, it has to be done the way God wanted it to be. That is the only right and correct way. Gods way is the only way.