Trying to be Catholic

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Michaeljc4 said:
Again, more thanks for all of your comments, thoughts, and advice. What I miss about the Catholic Church is the familiarity of it all: it’s comfortable (and God knows it’s convenient! There are Catholic Churches all over having masses constantly…you can go anytime!) Also, I miss the focus on the poor and the needy; it is a central part of Catholicism, and the church’s teachings on social justice are, for me, the most powerful part of Catholicism.

I do not believe, however, that homosexuality is a sin. I’ve read the most recent statement by the bishops, and while I salute their kindness toward people who are gay, they are–in my opinion–wrong in categorizing homosexuality (or homosexual acts, to split semantic hairs) as sinful. I am not in any way, shape, or form, wishing to debate this; that’s not my intention in these postings. I already know how the argument will go, and I promise you: it will lead no where.
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Same-sex attraction and homosexual acts are very, very different. It would be wrong to say that seperating the two terms is hair-splitting because it most certainly is not. **

I can’t raise my daughter in a church that treats people in the way that gays are treated in the Catholic Church. I just can’t, nor can I sit quietly in the pews and listen to the Church rant and rail against gay marriage, gay adoption, and gay priests and seminarians. It pisses me off (please excuse my language), and I don’t go to church to be angry.
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Perhaps some people approach this issue in a non-charitable way. That is unfortunate. It is important to remember though that the Church does not have anything against the attraction in itself. However, it is the acts. I would certainly hope that this isn’t all you parish talks about at mass. That seems rather unhealthy if it is the case. This issue only comes up in the homily once or twice a year at my parish.

Also, you aren’t mad at us, or you don’t seem to be. However, you realize that most of the people posting here are against gay “marriage” and homosexual acts. You disagree, but you are not angry. Perhaps you should approach your disagreement with the Church in a similar manner. Perhaps easier said than done, but still worth a shot.**

I’ve thought a lot about all of this since yesterday (and before, too, but it came up again yesterday for reasons I won’t bore anyone with). I am going to participate in the parts of Catholicism that speak to me, and stay away from the parts that make me sad and angry. I know that makes me a “cafeteria Catholic,” but so be it. That seems like the only way I am going to make peace with this whole thing.
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I hate the term Cafeteria Catholic. It alienates people who are given the title, and is only used mostly by people who see themselves as holier than thou. Everyone has their struggles. Yours happen to be in this area. Mine might be elsewhere. Maybe a better title is struggling Catholic. We can all call ourselves that because none of us are perfect. **

Again, thanks to all for your help. I know I am kicking a hornet’s nest, and I apologize if I’ve angered anyone. That wasn’t my intention. You are all very kind to speak with me at all on this issue. God bless you. No matter what…next week is Advent! Let’s all celebrate the coming of the King! Hope is born again into this dark world…thanks be to God!
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I hope you are not angering anyone. We are all here to help each other follow Christ. I don’t see a reason for anyone to be angry for someone who is trying to follow the Lord. At most we just feel badly for you that this is causing you so much agony.**
Michaeljc4 🙂
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I would let these two things go and try not to look at them for a while. The time that you would spend in agony over these issues, instead devote that much more time to prayer. I have struggled with these two teachings, and I realize how idiotic they might appear. Just pray though and eventually God will lead you to Truth. Peace be with you!
 
Well, I hate to put it this way, but I think the problem may be that you don’t quite believe that Jesus truly is the Son of God.

But let me explain before anyone gets upset.

If Jesus is the Son of God – if he IS Divine, then his teachings cannot be wrong.

If his teachings cannot be wrong, then the tradition he affirmed and modified (the Old Testament) cannot be incorrect.

So, if you are saying that you can’t abide what the Catholic Church teaches about homosexuality, you are choosing your own personal ideas over what is written in the Bible.

And if you think that the Bible is basically wrong, then frankly you have no business being a Catholic. It doesn’t really make sense.

In fact, if you think that the Bible is basically wrong, then why adopt any version of Christianity at all? Surely, if the teaching in the Bible on homosexuality is wrong, then the teaching on everything else is suspect as well.

God CAN’T be wrong.

So, if you think the Bible is wrong, then you clearly don’t think it is the Word of God.

I think you might be putting the cart before the horse. You need to figure out if you believe in Christ’s divinity or not. If you do, then your disagreement with him is your problem, not his. If you don’t – and that’s a perfectly legitimate position – then you shouldn’t be putting yourself through misery trying to pick and choose his teachings. Just live your life.

Either way, I’ll pray for you.
 
Many, many Catholics have troubles with certain teachings. I, myself, had a very difficult time accepting the teaching on birth control for married couples. Then I came to understand what sacramental marriage is (thanks to Scott Hahn and a few others). I also came to understand that the Church has the teaching authority of Christ. If the Church proclaims something I disagree with, it is something I have to mull over and think about, but in the end I am always obedient to the Church because I know that Christ speaks through her. Sometimes we don’t like what He has to say… it doesn’t fit with the world we live in. But then again, we were warned not to conform to the world around us, right?

Now, just a couple side comments. Homosexual acts are specifically condemned in the Bible. They are offensive to God, this is not something the Church made up. The Catholic Church is the only Church I am aware of that is upholding God’s word on homosexual acts. Same sex attraction is not condemned. The fact that some Catholic treat homosexuals badly is terrible and un-Christian. We should love all our brothers and sisters in Christ. But we cannot advocate their choice to participate in acts that highly offend God. People with same sex attraction are called to celibacy. That is not the curse everyone seems to think it is. It is an opportunity to turn to God, and turn over your whole life to Him. However, many people with same-sex attraction do not turn to God and they commit acts that offend Him. By the way, through prayer, a homosexual can become a heterosexual. Sorry,but if you have been told otherwise it is not true. With God, all things are possible. There is a member of this forum who has a very powerful testimony on this issue.

Personally, woman in the clergy is not the least bit difficult for me to accept. A priest must act ‘in persona Christi’ during his duties. Christ was a man, it is impossible for a woman to act in the person of Christ in these situations.

I will be praying for you. I concur with the other poster… go sit in front of the Blessed Sacrament and pray (often!). He will guide you… but keep your mind open to what He has to say.
 
Dear Michaeljc4,

Oh how I hear you. I too struggle with the catholic church. Different reasons, but I understand your struggle. For me I have left the church, being told to leave didn’t help, but it is a decision that had to be made.

The church has not given alot of attention to those who are in struggles and ultimately leave the church or feel so alienated by it that they are miserable. They teach that we must submit to what Rome says, but where is Rome when people need help? No where to be found. You wrote to your bishop did he reply?

As for that tug, yes I feel that too. I too am miserable because of that tug. I questioned for awhile what it really was, but I know that it is God calling me, telling me I am in need of him and he will heal my hurt. Problem is his so called church doesn’t want to heal it, it wants to critized and hurt people, it wants to blame people tell them to go away.

I hope you find peace, so that your little one will know peace.
Until the church stands up and recongizes that there are people that are being hurt because of what is being said people like you and I will feel miserable and still feel that tug.

scared
 
I would like to thank everyone, once again, for taking the time to discuss this with me. I know that a lot of people come on these forums, say wicked, uncharitable things, and act like jerks when talking about the teachings of the Church. I hope I haven’t done that.

While I feel myself being sucked into a point-by-point argument on many of the comments others have made, I am going to take a pass on it, although much of what’s been said is thought-provoking, and much of it I would enjoy challenging. In the end, though, it would be for nothing.

I’ll keep working at my faith, and keep praying to Jesus, and to the Blessed Mother, for guidance. Who knows? I’ve changed a lot in my life, going from atheism to faith (which was a very big shift, believe me!) Perhaps someday I’ll return to the Catholic Church, but right now, I just can’t. The last time I was at mass, it felt like a desert to me. It made me sad. Very sad. That was months ago; I haven’t been back since.

On Saturday, though, I was dropping off some clothes to a homeless shelter, and when I couldn’t find the place, I took it all instead to a St. Vincent de Paul box behind a local parish. This particular church has built, and is operating, a soup kitchen for the poor, and I have been helping to raise funds for them over the past year or so (despite my not going to mass). I went inside the building, looked around, met the director, and I thought to myself, “This is what I miss. This is, to me, what being a Catholic is.”

So for now, that’s what I’ll do. Keep helping the poor, keep supporting the ministries that speak to me. Keep praying…and keep an open heart.

God bless you all, and again, thank you.

Michaeljc4
 
Michaeljc4 said:
What I miss about the Catholic Church is the familiarity of it all: it’s comfortable (and God knows it’s convenient! There are Catholic Churches all over having masses constantly…you can go anytime!) Also, I miss the focus on the poor and the needy; it is a central part of Catholicism, and the church’s teachings on social justice are, for me, the most powerful part of Catholicism.
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Jesus came to bring good tidings to the poor.🙂

Always bring good news to the poor, in whatever form you find them. A lifestyle can be a form of poverty, or captivity, even if it isn’t recognized by the person.

Do work with the Vincentians (the society of St. Vincent de Paul)! They’re a good outfit.
 
Michaeljc4 said:
Thank you, everyone. I truly appreciate your suggestions, thoughts, and ideas. It is the submitting part that I can’t get over. **The teachings of the church insult my conscience, and I can’t accept that. I understand the teachings perfectly well; I just can’t live by them, or teach them to my daughter. **Yet at the same time…I am called back, again and again.

God bless,

Michaeljc4
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Friend,
I came back to the Church 4 years ago after a 25 year self-imposed exile. Every last friend of mine is gay. My sister is gay. My former boss was gay. I live in a city with the 2nd largest homosexual population. I used to pray to the Holy Spirit NOT to convert my beliefs on homosexuality because I would then be forced to learn a whole new way of viewing those I loved. I begged the Lord to just leave me alone on this issue because I was not prepared nor did I desire to change my views. After all, I was loved and adored by all these folks for my open-mindedness and compassion and “hip-ness”. What would happen to me if I had to actually consider God’s word on this issue, reflect of the Church’s teaching and keep as open a mind for the Lord as I did for my homosexual friends? But I did keep an open mind, despite my constant complaints to Christ. And your comments above lead me to think that you have not given the Lord and His servant, the Church, the same opporunity you may have given science and our culture. Even after I started reading the Church’s teaching I was resistant, but still, I prayed for willingness. I was frightened. Terrified. What if I lost my friends and family?

But God has had great mercy and patience while He’s been teaching me, and has also swelled my heart with even more love for those friends and family than I had before. I will not debate the issues with you but I will suggest that you at least offer God the same openess, willingness, and tolerance that you have extended to the homosexual community. And trust that you will lose nothing in the process. More than anything here on this earth, I want those I love to be with me in the next.
 
IMO, the majority of mainstream Catholics disagree with one or more points of Church doctrine. However, it’s not enough to drive them away from the church. I am one of those. I have given it much thought and I can’t imagine being anything other than Catholic.

While I don’t 100% agree with all of it’s doctrine, I believe it comes closest to what God has in mind for us. Having said that, I don’t condemn other Christian denominations. IMO, each person has to seek God in his own way and if you find him more in another denomination then you have a decision to make. However, I encourage you to stay in the Catholic Church, since it seems to pull you back each time you try to leave it.
 
Mike, just a few notes:

First, it might be YOU that’s wrong with some of your political opinions. Something to consider. I know my views on things have changed considerably since I was younger: I’ve read more, learned more, etc.

Second, why would you WANT a church that lets you believe whatever. . . and says whatever you believe is fine and okay?

Third, I kind of agree with the big idea that religions are meant to affect us, to help us become better, to change us. So there’s a painful rub when you become religious. . . it can be uncomfortable. There’s an element of personal surrender to this, to a greater wisdom than your own.

Finally, I’m saying this because I have a background in philosophy, and I tend to believe that people, myself included, are not fully, entirely rational beings. And that we all have intellectual blind spots here and there, and that what we TAKE to be rational/reasonable is OFTEN flawed.
 
Hi there Mike,
by the way, if you think that the church is insulting your conscience it may be that your conscience is poorly informed?
I converted to the Catholic church because of its views on homosexuality. I was very much a gay activist before; angry at anyone who would put down my gay friends. But in my conversion I realized that the Church NEVER puts homosexuals down, infact She elevates those with homosexual tendencies and restores them to their proper dignity. It is because of the Church’s reasonableness on this teaching that I realized that the Church ultimately teaches out of a profound love it has for people. In other words, whatever the church teaches is from Christ Himself. If the Church was of the “world” it would be very easy to join with what anti-catholic views have to say. The Church is of Christ. You need to trust Jesus when he says: “I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.”
God is not a liar, He is always faithful to his word. The Church’s teachings are from Christ Himself. Trust.

-unworthy
 
Michael,

You are having a difficult time because you have the ability to think rationally about certain topics rather that blindly follow the dogma presented by the Church as many others find so easy to do.

You are correct in that the activities of consenting adults that involves absolutely no human suffering should not concern anyone.

My advice would be to continue to think rationally about things that affect your life and the suffering and well-being of your fellow human beings.
 
If I may comment to the original poster, your problem, like that of many others, is that you think too much. Just enjoy what you enjoy, the ambiance, the beauty of the Church, and how it makes you feel. Don’t try to be a theologian or a clergyman, and don’t let anyone make you feel like you should be one. There are way too many armchair Priests around, and way too many people who are mostly concerned about whether this little thing or that little thing is a sin. You don’t have to be an expert on the Faith. You just have to try your best, and to live in the footsteps of Christ.

Where will you always turn in times of trial? Just answer that, and you will have the solution to your problem. Anybody can be anything when times are good, but times aren’t always good, and where you go when those times happen should be what really defines you. Think about that.

Now, I may be just a cradle Catholic, but I firmly believe that there’s a reason I was born into it, and I’m sticking with it. I can never not be a Catholic, even when I’ve been “lukewarm” about it.
One thing is for sure, the Church will always be there for you when you do need it, always ready to welcome you back. Jesus’ mercy is always there for you, and Mary and other Saints are always there to help you pray and to help comfort you.

In times of doubt, just keep going and enjoy the beauty. Keep praying. Go and light some candles and pray some Hail Mary’s. Those times will pass. Even during times of doubt, even on those days when you feel like you may be an atheist or an agnostic, there’s still tremendous value in living as Christ would have.
 
We’ll see what happens. For now, there is just too much “stuff” that gets in the way when I go to Catholic Mass. I appreciate everyone’s advice and insights. I’ll be okay.
 
Michaeljc4 said:
We’ll see what happens. For now, there is just too much “stuff” that gets in the way when I go to Catholic Mass. I appreciate everyone’s advice and insights. I’ll be okay.
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I know what you mean. That’s why I stopped going. Too much “stuff” (i.e. irrational, contradictory and mean-spirited dogma).
 
The Church is so huge, it has become impersonal. I know many Catholics who are very involved in their parishes, but don’t seem very Christian in the way they behave. They’ve gotten lost in the high-church maze of our enormous establishment. Form takes priority over substance. The corporate approach to union with Christ can be very disappointing. YET…I can’t leave the Church, because it’s THE CHURCH. So, as you do, I stumble along, half miserable, half satisfied, but always, always, always, deeply in prayer.:cool:
 
simple, serious, solemn, and focused. I want less noise, combustion and pomp. I want ***SUBSTANCE. ***
 
It comes down to authority. I don’t have any great religious fervor about the birth control teaching, but I feel there would be a great deal of arrogance in me informing the church that I, with my bachelor’s and master’s degrees and 38 years of life experience, know more than they, with 2,000 years of experience with, and accumulated wisdom from, greater minds and holier saints than I personally can ever hope to be; and with Jesus Himself at the helm. Who am I to say I know better than they?

So I have submitted to the church’s authority, and all I can say is that, even having done so, I’m not fond of the teaching, and yet submitting has given me the greatest blessings, a large family that is my pride and joy and eternal souls who will follow me through all eternity.

I will also add that I think in today’s world, we are conditioned (dare I say practically brain-washed) to regard *disagreement with * homosexuality acts as hatred of the individuals who engage in those acts. It is not. So, I don’t know what ‘hatred’ you are referring to, but I do believe it’s very likely it is not really hatred or ranting and raving, but simply a sermon on a very important subject in today’s world.
 
KTP, I think you hit the nail on the head: it’s submission. The Church says one thing, I say another…and one of us has to give in (I suspect that it won’t be Rome). I earnestly, honestly, prayerfully, and vigorously think that the Church’s teachings on homosexuality are wrong. I need to either bite the proverbial bullet and accept them, or reject them. I reject them. It’s really that simple. I won’t submit. I won’t submit to the teaching that says giving out condoms in places like Africa is a sin. I won’t submit when the church describes gay adoption as “doing violence” to children. I just won’t.

The Catholic Church isn’t God. God is God. The Church is people…and people can be wrong. The Church has been wrong before (think slavery, inquisistions, burning ‘heretics’, etc.). The Church is wrong now.

I will not submit.

This thread has been excellent, and I want everyone to know how much I appreciate their (name removed by moderator)ut, their ideas, their patience, and their prayers. You are nice people, and I thank you. I know this post will lead to some heated exchanges, but I have only been honest about my thinking, as I know you will be about yours. God bless you all. No matter how much we disagree, I hope that we can all agree to celebrate the Return of the King…Advent! 🙂

Michaeljc4
 
we shouldn’t lose sight of Jesus Himself. HE is the ultimate source of authority. And, Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality. It was Paul who spoke of it in the N.T., and as important as Paul was, he wasn’t Jesus, nor did he ever know Jesus in the flesh. Let us not over-emphasize post-incarnation Christianity. Yes, it was vital, but it simply cannot take priority over Jesus. EVERYTHING Christian flows from Him. Everything. 👍
 
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