Trying to be Catholic

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we shouldn’t lose sight of Jesus Himself. HE is the ultimate source of authority. And, Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality. It was Paul who spoke of it in the N.T., and as important as Paul was, he wasn’t Jesus, nor did he ever know Jesus in the flesh. Let us not over-emphasize post-incarnation Christianity. Yes, it was vital, but it simply cannot take priority over Jesus. EVERYTHING Christian flows from Him. Everything. 👍
It’s mentioned in the Old Testament too and Jesus fulfilled the Law.

WWJD? I don’t know but it would involve love, kindness, omniscient understanding and Truth. Is your conscience clean? If it is, what does it tell you? If it is not, why is it not?
 
I will also add that I think in today’s world, we are conditioned (dare I say practically brain-washed) to regard *disagreement with * homosexuality acts as hatred of the individuals who engage in those acts. It is not.
Amen to that – is an opposite stance on the homosexual issues EVER given respectable representation on TV…? Basically, if you disagree with the general media agenda they equate it with the racism of the past.
 
I won’t submit to the teaching that says giving out condoms in places like Africa is a sin…
Michaeljc4
Aside from morality, when you mention condoms you have to think in terms of risk. Condoms are not 100% effective. Yes, in isolated acts (i.e., one-night-stands), they lower the chance of spreading HIV or other STDs. They do not eliminate it. Within marriage, the risk is much higher because the exposure (frequency of sex with an infected person) is higher. They give people a false sense of security. The statistics WILL catch up with you. It’s foolhardy to recommend condoms to couples who know they’re dealing with an infection. Sooner or later the other one will be infected. There’s no way to avoid it except by abstinence.
 
. . .
The Catholic Church isn’t God. God is God. The Church is people…and people can be wrong. The Church has been wrong before (think slavery, inquisistions, burning ‘heretics’, etc.). The Church is wrong now. . . .

I will not submit.
An echo down the ages of “I will not serve!” 😦

These two articles might help as a corrective to your understanding - which is a very Protestant one - of the nature of the Church.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a46.htm
 
All I would say, and it sounds like you are already doing this, is don’t say “I won’t ever be reconciled with the Church.” Don’t close yourself off to that possibility. Leave the door open and continue the conversation. If God is really speaking to you, and you are really diligent in seeking the answers, they will be revealed to you. Remember the scripture that says “Ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened…” I think maybe God is just testing you here. I’ve found in my own life that the clearest understanding often comes after submission, not before. I think it’s in part because God wants us to obey him, but beyond that, just on a human level, we are sensorial creatures. We are what we do. So if we do something long enough, eventually through life experience we will begin to understand why we are doing it. I have discovered this in cooking and in reading about nutrition. At first I may prepare a certain dish a certain way only because I was raised that way and that’s how my mom did it and because I simply don’t know much about cooking. But one day I stray from the path and try my own thing, and I get poor results, and I realize that’s why she always did it that way. The spiritual life is much the same way. We learn from our mistakes, but we also learn from our obedience. You follow the recipe faithfully time and time again and over time you discover things you never noticed before that contribute to a clearer understanding of how it works. For instance, baking. After doing so much baking (muffins, breads, cookies, cakes, pizza, you name it) I’ve come to the realization that most baked goods basically have all the same components, just in different amounts (milk, eggs, flour, salt, sugar, baking soda or powder etc). This is not something my mother taught me. It’s something I learned just by doing it over the years. But it contributes to my understanding about baking and frees me up to try new things b/c I’m more likely now than before to do them successfully.
 
AnnaTherese, thank you for the advice. When I first returned to faith, and began to learn about my Catholic heritage, I tried to do what you are talking about. The psychologist William James, in his famous book The Varieties of Religious Experience wrote that “behavior proceeds conviction”; i.e. do what Catholics do and you will end up being Catholic. I prayed the Rosary everyday, I went to Eucharistic adoration, I went to Lenten spiritual retreats, I went to mass on Sundays and during the week (when I could), I read books and books and books about Catholicism, I prayed, I found a spiritual director (a Catholic nun), I watched EWTN, I listend to Scott Hahn cds, and I prayed to the Blessed Mother. I did everything I could to “behave” as a Catholic in the hopes that I would indeed become one. I didn’t.

FCEGM, I was thinking the exact same thing today as I drove in my car: I am a Protestant, aren’t I? It really comes down to that, at long last. Thank you very much for posting the articles, though. I appreciate your perspective.
 
Michael:

A couple of things.

(1) Frankly, it’s a mistake in religion to trot out a check list like you’ve done. As noted above, a single individual’s perspective is, in the end, pretty limited, even with advanced degrees and a strong interest in philosophical discussion.

(2) The Catholic Church is the ultimate Big Tent. It encompasses far more variety than most average US citizens realize. There is a place for you within it.

(3) Study that homosexuality issue. Much of America’s general view on homosexuality has been substantially shaped by TV and Hollywood movies in recent years. And by pro-homosexual propaganda as part of a concerted effort to socially legitimize these practices. Because of your great interest in studying all the issues from all points of view, go ahead and read this website’s article on Gay Marriage and follow through with some of the cited readings. Jeffrey Satinover’s title Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth is worth reading, too.

I’m in turmoil over the homosexual issue, so I’ve been studying it: I’m enormously disappointed by the activists and their deeply cynical brand of politics. It makes me apprehensive about American politics to see how a minority is able to orchestrate public opinion to its own, antisocial ends.
 
The psychologist William James, in his famous book The Varieties of Religious Experience wrote that “behavior proceeds conviction”; i.e. do what Catholics do and you will end up being Catholic. I prayed the Rosary everyday, I went to Eucharistic adoration, I went to Lenten spiritual retreats, I went to mass on Sundays and during the week (when I could), I read books and books and books about Catholicism, I prayed, I found a spiritual director (a Catholic nun), I watched EWTN, I listend to Scott Hahn cds, and I prayed to the Blessed Mother. I did everything I could to “behave” as a Catholic in the hopes that I would indeed become one. I didn’t.
But Michael, if you are approaching the Lord with a closed heart, a heart and head that is screaming “I will not accept, no matter what!”, are you really able to hear Him through the noise you are making? All of your efforts are wonderful. I did them too! White knucking my way through books and prayers and devotions in an attempt to understand. But understanding only came to me after I cried out “your will, not mine.”
 
But Michael, if you are approaching the Lord with a closed heart, a heart and head that is screaming “I will not accept, no matter what!”, are you really able to hear Him through the noise you are making?
Blessedtoo, you are confusing the Lord with the Catholic Church. I accept the Lord very, very much; without His grace I would be nowhere. My heart is as open to Him as I can make it. It’s the Catholic Church I’m not accepting, although I certainly gave it a good effort. The Catholic Church is not God.
God is God. The church–Catholic and Protestant–is people. People inspired by the Holy Spirit? I certainly hope so! But none the less: people.

Maxply, I will look at those articles, but I have to tell you in all honesty: I know what they will say already. I have looked at all of the evidence in this issue–both pro and con–and my mind will not change unless some new evidence surfaces. Homosexuality–and homosexual acts–are not sins. Period.

I agree that there is pro-homosexual propaganda out there regarding how many people are gay, how human sexuality works, etc. That said, there is misinformation on virtually every topic in this world. It’s our duty to find the truth, as best we can.

For example, this is insanity:

nytimes.com/2006/12/02/us/02child.html?th&emc=th

How many children, nationally, does this impact…and why is it on the front page of the New York Times? Talk about an agenda!
 
Hey I just want to say you are not alone. I also constantly feel torn. I have no answers or easy way out because I also know the issues wont go away, in my case womans rights. Ill keep you in my prayers. Hopefully one day God will answer our prayers and enlighten us or the church who ever needs it.

Sincerely
Polaris
 
Homosexuality–and homosexual acts–are not sins. Period.
Any and all sex between people not married to each other is a sin.

Marriage is a covenant between God, one man, and one woman.

God made the rules. You may not like them, but. . . . .
 
Blessedtoo, you are confusing the Lord with the Catholic Church. I accept the Lord very, very much; without His grace I would be nowhere. My heart is as open to Him as I can make it. It’s the Catholic Church I’m not accepting, although I certainly gave it a good effort. The Catholic Church is not God.
God is God. The church–Catholic and Protestant–is people. People inspired by the Holy Spirit? I certainly hope so! But none the less: people.
No Michael, I am not confused. The devotions and practices that you have engaged in (Adoration, Rosary, etc) are decidedly Catholic. Why do I spend an hour a week before the Blessed Sacrament? Because that is where Our Lord is. That is where I meet Him and Him me. I have no confusion over this issue but it seems you do. Perhaps instead of praying for understanding about issues such as homosexuality, you might want to consider praying and reading about about the CC being the one, true Church. Since I believe this, I also believe that the Lord speaks through Her and that Her doctrines are the truth.
 
Since I believe this, I also believe that the Lord speaks through Her and that Her doctrines are the truth.
Your beliefs don’t make it true, friend, because they are just that: your beliefs, and the beliefs of many others. You are welcome to them, and I respect them, while I don’t necessarily agree with them or share them.

Peace, and thank you for speaking with me.

Michaeljc4
 
Peace Michaeljc4,

Bless you in your journey. I’ve found this thread and your conflict very interesting. It seems you have made your mind up and will never budge. Has it occured to you that you may end up with no spiritual home at all because you accept the Catholic Church but reject it on a MAJOR issue while all other ecclesial groups fall short?
If you are teaching your children anything it is that faith is relative to our musings. If you believe truly that homosexuality is acceptable and the Church is teaching error, then you should not be a Catholic.
There are many social and humanitarian groups you and your child could be involved in that could satisfy the needs you describe. You could still teach your child compassion, and not have to teach her that homosexuality is either good or bad. If you have faith in God and pray for her perhaps she will find the truth on her own.
It seems cruel to inflict our children with our own conflicts. You either iron them out and make a committment before its too late. Or you should admit that you just don’t know the truth yet, but are searching for it.
 
Or you should admit that you just don’t know the truth yet, but are searching for it.
Excellent advice, my friend! Cicero said, “Seek the Truth, come whence it may, cost what it will.” That’s become my motto, and it’s one I will pass on to my daughter.

I’m very, very pleased that this thread hasn’t lost the spirit of charity. I’ve tried hard not to be combative, or insulting, or just a plain old jerk. I hope that I haven’t been. I’ve appreciated everyone’s points of view. What was it that Augustine said? “In essentials unity, in non essentials, liberty, and in all things charity”? That sounds like good advice, too. 🙂
 
Your beliefs don’t make it true, friend, because they are just that: your beliefs, and the beliefs of many others. You are welcome to them, and I respect them, while I don’t necessarily agree with them or share them.

Peace, and thank you for speaking with me.

Michaeljc4
They are not my “beliefs”, but rather, I believe the proofs for the apostolic authority of the CC. Believe me when I say, I was a very, very hard sell!

Again, I suggest perhaps some research and reflection on the authority of the CC. And an open mind. This has been a lively and interesting discourse and I will keep you in my prayers!🙂
 
if you’re gay and want to indulge your passions, you’re probably not going to be able to stay Catholic and find peace of mind with that decision and commitment. It would better for you to move on to another denomination. Sorry. That’s my read of the ‘tea leaves’.👍
 
Michael, when you say homosexual acts are not sins, you must be reading a rather different Bible than the one I have. I mean, it’s pretty clear. . .

I’m no literalist, but for me, it’s difficult to interpret away what the actual text here says.
 
if you’re gay and want to indulge your passions, you’re probably not going to be able to stay Catholic and find peace of mind with that decision and commitment. It would better for you to move on to another denomination. Sorry. That’s my read of the ‘tea leaves’.
Not gay, my friend: happily married heterosexual. “Gay” is not my cup of tea! 😃
you must be reading a rather different Bible than the one I have. I mean, it’s pretty clear. . .
Good point! So what are your thoughts on slavery? The Bible’s pretty clear on that, too. The Bible says lots of things, Maxply. Are you sure you are following all of the rules?
 
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