Trying to convert - I don't get it

  • Thread starter Thread starter Markie_Boy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It seems to me that the Scriptural mentions of what is appropriate regarding bishops and marriage, and regarding women’s activities in worship, are precisely examples of Church discipline at a given time, that despite being recorded in Scripture are the decisions of a particular leader in a particular context and can be (and have been) altered in other times and places. Elsewhere Paul explicitly states that he does not allow women to teach or hold authority over men, so he is not there passing on a revelation from God. Likewise, judging a bishop’s qualifications based on his behavior as a hub and and father is a wise piece of advice, not a universal rule (as even Markie agrees), and was overshadowed in some later times and places by the recommendations of Paul and Jesus that the unmarried can devote themselves most thoroughly to God. It is not “against Scripture” to say something different in a different time and context, as even Scripture itself shows on matters such as circumcision and dietary restrictions (vital for the distinct identity of the Israelites/Jews, but an unnecessary point of division for mixed-background Christian communities).
 
Yes - I know the other churches have their scandals too, so no stones to be thrown there.

And thanks Lenten Ashes, yes, familiar that there are married priests.

My questions go deeper than this one, but this one to me is so clear - scripture says let bishops be married if they choose - the church says you choose, be a bishop or married, not both.

I don’t think I’ll get anyone to agree with me on that one here. And I get there is a difference between discipline and dogma - but I wouldn’t want either to contradict scripture.

The underlying issue for me is, if they will go against scripture here, what else do I have to look for.
Hi, Markie!

…it is sad that you are so stuck on such minor an issue…

Your claim condemns the Church for a discipline which Christ Himself engaged in; a discipline which St. Paul (and, as far as we know, most, if not all, of Apostles and their direct disciples) not only engaged in but commended it as the most perfect Service to Christ…

…now, you’ve added a new twist: ‘since the Church is wrong on celibacy, she must be wrong on a lot of other things…’

…well, my friend, I must get off your merry-go-down!

There’s nothing further I can do to assist you with your dilemma (‘I don’t really want to join the Church, cause I have a bad feeling about whose right… but it must be me’).

May the Holy Spirit Give you the Love and Discipline you need to move past your construct!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Right, and the homosexual inclinations is something that is actually part of the vetting process. If you admit to being attracted to men you are likely not going to accepted and will not be ordained - but, people lie.

And I agree to a certain extent that you cant blame it on celibacy but I do think we likely see a decrease in these cases if these men are allowed to act out a normal human function of sexuality. And that is why in a previous post i mentioned that i personally think a 5 year window should be granted to the newly ordained. During that early process a person will know whether or not he can hack the celibate life, imo.

I had a close family member who was molested by a MARRIED Baptist youth minister - yet ***still ***have to defend the scandals of the Catholic Church with my own fundamentalists family members. They still cant see that this is not a total Catholic problem, it’s a human being problem. People have tunnel vision and see what they want to see.
Hi!

…I agree with you on some points… however I cannot connect with “venting process.”

Imagine a poor person… one that has no access to money, food, shelter–not even the possibility of gainful employment… would that person’s “venting process” be homosexual acts or robbery or murder?

…so while “venting” can be a secular out for those who choose to ignore God and the law, it cannot be held as a recourse for those who are seeking a spiritual life, Clergy and Laity alike.

…as I understand it, when a person discerns that he/she has a religious Vocation (Priest, Nun, Religious), that person does not simply sign on the dotted line and joins in… it takes years of higher education and preparation. During those years the person is exploring his/her Vocation and is able to ascertain whether or not he/she wishes to serve God in a religious Vocation.

…say we went to the same parish, you offered me a job in your business/home; you would most likely ask me pertinent questions about the complexities of the tasks I am to perform in order to assess my ability to do the job; if I lie or lack the knowledge of the technical issues you could, almost instantly, determine that I am not the right person for the job… but what about the tangents (smoker, drinker, drug use, language, discipline)–unless I am under the influence at the time that we speak or unless I have missed appointments or acted disrespectful, loud or abusive, how are you to gauge the type of employee/jobber that I am?

Now take that into the assessment for the religious Vocations–it is like the gun issue, how many people would volunteer that they are acquiring a weapon so that they could kill people?

…now back to the celibacy issue… as I understand it Nuns and other Religious are also required a vow of poverty and celibacy… unless you are suggesting (as anti-Catholics have done throughout history) that these Religious are engaged in covert sexual lifestyles and that Nuns are having children left to right (with Priests, mind you), why the disparity?

…the same “professionals” that would claim “venting” for the male must agree that females would require equal “venting” or are we back in the times when women had no sexual desires/aspirations?

I do think that the Church erred in three ways: 1) it allowed the belief that man can turn from a desire (sex, drugs, avarice) to side-blind her; the truth is that only if man (as in humanity) wants to turn from what is desired he would do so; 2) little to no supervision is not a deterrent, unless the character of the man has been proven; 3) once a Religious person fails, he/she must be removed from the environment in which he/she failed (the permanency of this removal would, of course, be commensurable with the gravity of the failure).

The Church must act above human standards; I say this not because she must somehow appeal to the adulation of the crowds… I say this because it is Christ’s Command.

Yet, since the Church is an organism composed of failing humanity, errors will arise and , when given the opportunity, fester… what she does to extricate herself from error and to regain safe-footing will demonstrate whether she wants to Serve Christ or follow the world.

I may be a sinner for life… but I cannot teach others to sin or enable them in their sinful acts… the Church recognizes that… I think that after the sexual scandal the call for accountability has risen to a higher level; individual dioceses’ and archdioceses’ are being held to Christ’s Command (‘your justice must be greater…’)… though the same cannot be said for the secular society, in a perfect utopia, one can only dream!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I attend a Catholic parish. Women read but do not preach.

“scripture says let bishops be married if they choose” - I chose to paraphrase it this way, actually referring to 1 Tim 3:2, as everyone wants to keep saying a person has the choice to be married and not a priest, or a un-married and a priest.

The way I read it, I see a bishop is the one who can choose - and the choice does not eliminate him from being a bishop.
Hi, Markie!

…here’s my last engagement with you on this issue… since you are so bent on legalism, do you bring your pay checks to your local parish, have given them your vehicle and other goods/items, have sold your house and given them the proceeds, and do you volunteer your free time in the Service of the parish?

…if you answer is “no” to any of the above, then you, my friend, are guilty of going against Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
IMHO, I think that what is written in Scripture does matter and should not be dismissed.
Hi!

…I think that the issue is what is question–does it matter? …as if the Catholic Church would forbid females from speaking, would you then join the Church or would you then simply choose gear to why aren’t women given equal rights or why “xyz.”

…the only consistency is the desire to find fault so as to claim righteousness of self and un-Scriptural teachings on the part of the Church.

…if you follow this thread you will note that the OP refuses to engage anything that demonstrates that he is grasping at straws!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Do you think it is OK to go against whatever is written in Holy Scripture?
Hi!

…the problem is that the Church is not going against Scriptures…

…it is the OP’s understanding that is biased against the Church so he is unable to note the beam in his eye.

Jesus did not marry.

Was Jesus going against Scriptures?

Jesus Commends those who, for the Sake of Heaven, make themselves eunuchs; is Jesus going against Scriptures?

St. Paul decides not to marry and urges others to follow his discipline; is St. Paul going against Scriptures?

Scriptures say that the Believers took everything they owned and put it at the feet of the Apostles; are today’s Believers doing the same–if not, according to the OP, are they not going against Scriptures?

…I could go on…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I would say YES. What is written in Holy Scripture does matter.
Hi!

…you misunderstand!

…does it matter as 'would you simply not just offer another argument for not holding Fellowship with the only Church Founded by Christ?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I would like to see that Roman Catholicism is true, it would be so nice to convert with my heart.

But this AM I read two passages, 1 Tim 3:2-5 that says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, and even have children.

Then 1 Tim 4:1-3 that says it would be to depart from the faith to forbid marriage.

I know the difference between doctrine and discipline - by why would you ever, ever have a discipline that went AGAINST scripture?
Haydock Commentary

1 Tim 4:2

Ver. 2. A bishop (the same name then comprehended priest) to be blameless, as to life and conversation, adorned, (says St. Chrysostom) with all virtues. See also St. Jerome in his letter to Oceanus.

— The[1] husband of one wife. It does not signify, that to be a bishop or priest he must be a married man; nor that he must be a man who has but one wife at a time; but that he must be a man who has never been married but once, or to one wife: because to be married more than once, was looked upon as a mark of too great an inclination to sensual pleasures. It is true, at that time a man might be chosen to be a bishop or priest whose wife was living, but from that time he was to live with her as with a sister. This St. Jerome testifies as to the discipline of the Latin Church. (Witham)
[1] Ver. 2. Unius uxoris virum, i.e. non bigamum. See St. Chrysostom, p. 285.

— The meaning is not that every bishop should have a wife, (for St. Paul himself had none) but that no one should be admitted to the holy orders of bishop, priest, or deacon, who had been married more than once. (Challoner)

— Sober.[2] The Greek rather signifies watchful.
[2] Ver. 2. Sobrium, nephalion. Vigilantem.

— Chaste.[3] There is nothing for this in the Greek text at present, unless in some few manuscripts. Perhaps the ancient Latin interpreter added it, as being signified and comprehended in the other words.
[3] Ver. 2. Pudicum: some Greek manuscripts, semnon.

— Teacher: a doctor, as the Greek signifies. (Witham)​

1 Tim 4:3

Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says St. Chrysostom[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in St. Irenæus, Epiphanius, St. Augustine, Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with St. Paul, who in the next chap. (ver. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says St. Chrysostom) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. St. Augustine, (lib. 30. contra Faustum. chap. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. (Witham)

— St. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. (Challoner)

— We may see in the earliest ages[centuries] of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See St. Clement of Alexandria, lib. 3. Strom.

haydock1859.tripod.com/index.html
 
…My questions go deeper than this one, but this one to me is so clear - scripture says let bishops be married if they choose - the church says you choose, be a bishop or married, not both.

I don’t think I’ll get anyone to agree with me on that one here. And I get there is a difference between discipline and dogma - but I wouldn’t want either to contradict scripture.

The underlying issue for me is, if they will go against scripture here, what else do I have to look for.
Remember that you approach the Church whose doctrinal authority didn’t end in the waning years of the 1st century AD.

Priests, under specific circumstances can be married. You know this. However, it is best if they marry the Church instead - as Christ did. I give you the most important quote from God-Incarnate, Himself as it pertains to the matter of expanding doctrine found in Sacred Scripture:

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The Baptist churches we come from are rooted largely in 19th century post-Great Awakening America. The Catholic Church is rooted with perfect continuity from 1st century Roman Judea. If your inquiry is genuine, you’ll complete your conversion.

After all, if the ancient Church did indeed fail and thus required “reawakening”, “reformation” or “restoration”, then Hell did indeed prevail against Christ’s Church (Matt. 16:18) and He is made a liar. If He is a liar, let us abandon Christianity, especially the Baptist “form” of it.

If He’s not a liar, then His Church will be ancient. Like Catholicism. Welcome to the ancient Church.

Go in peace.
 
I would like to see that Roman Catholicism is true, it would be so nice to convert with my heart.

But this AM I read two passages, 1 Tim 3:2-5 that says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, and even have children.
First of all, 1 Tim does not say that a bishop MUST be the husband of one wife, etc. It plainly says: “Now a bishop must be above reproach (above reproach only is the demand), the husband of one wife…” In other words, not the husband of many wives, but merely one. Also, this is not a command about marriage, but a ruling on who may be a bishop (or his representative as a priest). That is the simple meaning of the text. The vow of celibacy came later as a prudential judgment by the Roman rite Church. All who enter into the priesthood in the Rome rite know perfectly well that what it means. No one puts a gun to their heads and tells them that they must become a priest. It’s entirely voluntary.
Then 1 Tim 4:1-3 that says it would be to depart from the faith to forbid marriage.
I know the difference between doctrine and discipline - by why would you ever, ever have a discipline that went AGAINST scripture?
No one is forbidding anyone to marry. Again, the text doesn’t support the interpretation you’ve been taught–one laid on it by cherry-picking verses out of all context–historical as well as theological. It merely means that marriage is not evil but good, and that’s all. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the ministerial priesthood.

You are assuming that everything you were taught about of biblical interpretation by your Baptist Church is correct. Well, it isn’t correct. To read into the text what you’ve been taught is very bad biblical exegesis and needs to be refuted, and roundly, because it keeps people like you in the dark as to the truth, deflecting you from God’s call to embrace the fullness of the faith that subsists within the Catholic Church.

The Church is the Bible’s true interpreter–not all and sundry. Christ gave the Church the authority to decide matters of faith and morals. The Bible is merely one part of the deposit of the faith, not the only one. All who knowingly and willingly contradict Christ and his Church by falsely interpreting Scripture are playing a very dangerous game–one they will have to answer to God for at their judgment.
 
You be the judge if in Paul’s rhetorical question whether the answer is “no” like the Catholics say, or yes as others say.

1 Corinthians 9: 1-5 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
 
You be the judge if in Paul’s rhetorical question whether the answer is “no” like the Catholics say, or yes as others say.

1 Corinthians 9: 1-5 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
But St. Paul had no wife: quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=1+Corinthians&chapno=7&startverse=1&endverse=8.

As for the verses you cited:

Ver. 5. It appears certain, from the testimony of the fathers, that St. Paul was not in the state of wedlock. St. Jerome informs us that the apostle is here speaking of such holy women who, according to the Jewish custom, supplied their teachers with the necessaries of life, as we see was done to Christ himself. It is evident from ancient records that this was a very prevalent custom in Judea, and therefore a cause of no scandal; but to the Gentiles this custom was unknown, and therefore lest it might prove a cause of scandal to any, St. Paul did not allow any woman to follow him as a companion. Tertullian denies, with St. Augustine and St. Jerome, that St. Paul is here speaking of his wife. (Estius; Calmet)

St. Paul is merely stating that if he wished to have a wife, he could have one like other apostles had–at that time. It is a well known fact that celibacy for clergy was instituted later for reasons of prudence, as I stated in my last post.
 
You be the judge if in Paul’s rhetorical question whether the answer is “no” like the Catholics say, or yes as others say.

1 Corinthians 9: 1-5 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
Hi, D!

…I think that you are missing the point; it is not that Scriptures forbid marriage; what is being discussed is that the Church adopted Christ’s discipline, as did St. Paul (and many of the early Believers). There is no command that a Bishop/Priest must take a wife.

The Church does not Teach that St. Paul is commanding that Believers must remain celibate.

The choice of Vocation is a personal one. The Catholic Church is not anti-Scriptural by defining a discipline that was practiced by Christ and His Disciples…

…when man is the judge (removed from Church history and from the Apostolic Succession) man judges poorly and proceeds to interpret Scriptures in a manner that gives him a, perceived, correct understanding.

In a myopic view: every man is his own authority!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
You be the judge if in Paul’s rhetorical question whether the answer is “no” like the Catholics say, or yes as others say.

1 Corinthians 9: 1-5 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
You say that the Catholics say “no.” This has been mentioned already on this thread, but I’ll review the fact is that the Catholic Church does ordain married men to the priesthood. There are situation in the Latin Church where this happens, but there are other Catholic churches where this is the norm. So, the statement that “the Catholics say ‘no’” is a false one.

One, however, could argue that if your scripture citation proves that anyone who preaches the gospel should be able to “take along a believing wife,” then I think it proves too much. First, what if a preacher has a non-believing wife already? If we are going to just look at this one bit of scripture to make the argument that it’s okay to bring along a believing wife, then that would mean he could marry a second time in order to have a “believing wife”. Or, what if they preacher was female - doesn’t that mean that this scripture endorses same sex marriage?
 
You say that the Catholics say “no.” This has been mentioned already on this thread, but I’ll review the fact is that the Catholic Church does ordain married men to the priesthood. There are situation in the Latin Church where this happens, but there are other Catholic churches where this is the norm. So, the statement that “the Catholics say ‘no’” is a false one.

One, however, could argue that if your scripture citation proves that anyone who preaches the gospel should be able to “take along a believing wife,” then I think it proves too much. First, what if a preacher has a non-believing wife already? If we are going to just look at this one bit of scripture to make the argument that it’s okay to bring along a believing wife, then that would mean he could marry a second time in order to have a “believing wife”. Or, what if they preacher was female - doesn’t that mean that this scripture endorses same sex marriage?
Hi!

…your last statement folds into St. Paul’s command that women remain silent in the Church; therefore, no female preachers, please.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi!

…your last statement folds into St. Paul’s command that women remain silent in the Church; therefore, no female preachers, please.

Maran atha!

Angel
That’s the problem with using one verse to prove an overall teaching.
 
That’s the problem with using one verse to prove an overall teaching.
Hi!

…that’s exactly the point I was making… though as far as Scriptures are concerned, there are no female preachers sent by Christ or any of the Apostles or their successors… both a combination of Scriptures and absence of Scriptural references, as well as Church history attest to it… but that’s a long tangent away from the point of this thread.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
That’s the problem with using one verse to prove an overall teaching.
Hi!

…that’s exactly the point I was making… though as far as Scriptures are concerned, there are no female preachers sent by Christ or any of the Apostles or their successors… both a combination of Scriptures and absence of Scriptural references, as well as Church history attest to it… but that’s a long tangent away from the point of this thread.

Maran atha!

Angel
Exactly! We see this a great deal among n-Cs who contest this issue, yet we can and should examine it in the context of the entire New Testament which plainly shows that Our Lord Jesus Christ established this as a discipline but that His preference was for celibacy. For that you can take some time and study my blog article Priestly celibacy is unBiblical. NOT!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top