Trying to convince someone the Church is not shoehorned into an ideology

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cojuanco
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Cojuanco

Guest
I’m in an online argument with someone who seems convinced that our bishops (in this country) are evil or acting in bad faith because they appear to agree with a certain left-wing political party on issues like poverty, immigration or war, even as they heavily criticize them on, for example, abortion. He also seems convinced that Vatican II is leading the Church to ruin and that a certain Catholic Internet personality agrees with him (even though he does not). How do I convince him that the Church will not ever totally side with one secular political party or another?
 
Put it this way - the Church is about doing the Will of God and saving souls. The “folly of God is wiser than the wisdom of men” (paraphrased from one of St. Paul’s epistles - probably Romans, but I can’t remember which one at this time). Secondly, being pro-life and caring for social justice are not contradictory - on the contrary, they are two sides of the same coin: respecting the dignity of all human life - protecting it when it is endangered and lifting it up when it is downtrodden. All real work in social justice is inherently pro-life, and all real pro-life work is inherently socially just. There cannot be any contradiction between the two.

What good are food stamps if the people who would receive them are killed before they have the chance to live? At the same time, though, should we allow people who have already been born to starve because they cannot afford food to eat? Why are we to be pro-life, and why are we to care about the poor? Is it not because all humanity has been created in the image of God? Or are we to jettison our care for the poor due to it not meeting “Conservative” ideology or our pro-life message due to it not meeting “Liberal” ideology? How much higher are God’s thoughts than our thoughts and God’s ways above our own ways (c.f. the book of Isaiah).

The reason why the Church does not get into partisan ideological battles is due to the fact that neither side - Conservative or Liberal - is in full alignment with the ways of God. The Parties are creations of men (and women), and as such are led by the folly of humanity. The Church, on the other hand, is the creation of God the Son, directed by God the Holy Spirit, with the mission that all can be with God the Father. As such, we are called to find a way to align the ways of men (politics & public policy) with the ways of God.
 
Put it this way - the Church is about doing the Will of God and saving souls. The “folly of God is wiser than the wisdom of men” (paraphrased from one of St. Paul’s epistles - probably Romans, but I can’t remember which one at this time). Secondly, being pro-life and caring for social justice are not contradictory - on the contrary, they are two sides of the same coin: respecting the dignity of all human life - protecting it when it is endangered and lifting it up when it is downtrodden. All real work in social justice is inherently pro-life, and all real pro-life work is inherently socially just. There cannot be any contradiction between the two.

What good are food stamps if the people who would receive them are killed before they have the chance to live? At the same time, though, should we allow people who have already been born to starve because they cannot afford food to eat? Why are we to be pro-life, and why are we to care about the poor? Is it not because all humanity has been created in the image of God? Or are we to jettison our care for the poor due to it not meeting “Conservative” ideology or our pro-life message due to it not meeting “Liberal” ideology? How much higher are God’s thoughts than our thoughts and God’s ways above our own ways (c.f. the book of Isaiah).

The reason why the Church does not get into partisan ideological battles is due to the fact that neither side - Conservative or Liberal - is in full alignment with the ways of God. The Parties are creations of men (and women), and as such are led by the folly of humanity. The Church, on the other hand, is the creation of God the Son, directed by God the Holy Spirit, with the mission that all can be with God the Father. As such, we are called to find a way to align the ways of men (politics & public policy) with the ways of God.
This is the best explanation of an important issue in the Catholic faith. It explains my dissatisfaction with many things political.
 
When a minister told Abraham Lincoln he “hoped the Lord is on our side,” the president responded, “I am not at all concerned about that… But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord’s side.”
 
How do I convince him that the Church will not ever totally side with one secular political party or another?
Conviction isn’t something that can always be handed out. At best you can share the facts and answer genuine questions. This person may or may not be convinced by it. If not don’t take it personal and move on.
 
Have not members of the clergy said that those voting for a so-called “pro-abortion” candidate would be committing a mortal sin? I think we know who they were referring to in the last presidential election…
 
Have not members of the clergy said that those voting for a so-called “pro-abortion” candidate would be committing a mortal sin? I think we know who they were referring to in the last presidential election…
That’s not a party, though, but a candidate. It was complex, too, because both major candidates were shilling for intrinsic evils - one merely wanted it abroad, while one wanted them practiced on us at home.
 
That’s not a party, though, but a candidate. It was complex, too, because both major candidates were shilling for intrinsic evils - one merely wanted it abroad, while one wanted them practiced on us at home.
One only agreed with abortion in cases of rape and incest (about 1% or 2% of cases) while the other candidate was practically Planned Parenthood itself.
 
Put it this way - the Church is about doing the Will of God and saving souls. The “folly of God is wiser than the wisdom of men” (paraphrased from one of St. Paul’s epistles - probably Romans, but I can’t remember which one at this time). Secondly, being pro-life and caring for social justice are not contradictory - on the contrary, they are two sides of the same coin: respecting the dignity of all human life - protecting it when it is endangered and lifting it up when it is downtrodden. All real work in social justice is inherently pro-life, and all real pro-life work is inherently socially just. There cannot be any contradiction between the two.

What good are food stamps if the people who would receive them are killed before they have the chance to live? At the same time, though, should we allow people who have already been born to starve because they cannot afford food to eat? Why are we to be pro-life, and why are we to care about the poor? Is it not because all humanity has been created in the image of God? Or are we to jettison our care for the poor due to it not meeting “Conservative” ideology or our pro-life message due to it not meeting “Liberal” ideology? How much higher are God’s thoughts than our thoughts and God’s ways above our own ways (c.f. the book of Isaiah).

The reason why the Church does not get into partisan ideological battles is due to the fact that neither side - Conservative or Liberal - is in full alignment with the ways of God. The Parties are creations of men (and women), and as such are led by the folly of humanity. The Church, on the other hand, is the creation of God the Son, directed by God the Holy Spirit, with the mission that all can be with God the Father. As such, we are called to find a way to align the ways of men (politics & public policy) with the ways of God.
I tried the argument in the second paragraph, and all I got was an assertion that that was a lie, and that the bishops were in bed with a certain left-wing political party, and that the USCCB was bordering on communism.
 
I tried the argument in the second paragraph, and all I got was an assertion that that was a lie, and that the bishops were in bed with a certain left-wing political party, and that the USCCB was bordering on communism.
Then drop the argument with him. This person needs your prayers, as he is in true danger of falling into mortal sin, if he has not already. In fact, he is in danger of schism. His only chance is that you pray that he loses his hardness of heart and that you pray for your own patience in your dealings with him and others like him.

By the way - you know the Church is correct when “Conservatives” accuse us of being in bed with “Liberals” and “Liberals” accuse us of being in bed with “Conservatives”. We are in bed with neither - only with God!
 
Then drop the argument with him. This person needs your prayers, as he is in true danger of falling into mortal sin, if he has not already. In fact, he is in danger of schism. His only chance is that you pray that he loses his hardness of heart and that you pray for your own patience in your dealings with him and others like him.
This.
By the way - you know the Church is correct when “Conservatives” accuse us of being in bed with “Liberals” and “Liberals” accuse us of being in bed with “Conservatives”. We are in bed with neither - only with God!
Subtle reference to the Song of Songs? 😛
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top