Trying to explain God's "rules" to an atheist

[shewis]

First he says : God is unconditional love with the threat of eternal damnation. I went on to give the example of raising kids with no consequences and see how that works out. He thinks that is a bad analogy & demonstrably false. He goes on to say humans have absolutely no problem doing the right thing without threat of damnation. That atheists actually have lower rates of divorce, lower rates of incarceration, lower rates of teen pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. In every country and culture where it has been studied, atheists lead a more “moral” life, all without “religious” discipline Christians seem to think is necessary.

Any info or guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks and God Bless!!

 

[bingbang]

First he says : God is unconditional love with the threat of eternal damnation. I went on to give the example of raising kids with no consequences and see how that works out. He thinks that is a bad analogy & demonstrably false. He goes on to say humans have absolutely no problem doing the right thing without threat of damnation. That atheists actually have lower rates of divorce, lower rates of incarceration, lower rates of teen pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. In every country and culture where it has been studied, atheists lead a more “moral” life, all without “religious” discipline Christians seem to think is necessary.

Any info or guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks and God Bless!!

Obviously your analogy is a bad one because many atheists do live good moral lives without the threat of damnation. If you are only being good because you don’t want to go to hell you have missed the whole point. You don’t have to believe in God to want to help others and be generous.

I don’t doubt those statistics either as atheists are, on average at least, (or so I have heard) more intelligent, more educated, and richer than believers. That is not to say that every atheist is smart or every believer is stupid, but many people from lower socio economic classes are going to be more likely to not question what they were taught as kids when it comes to religion. Many atheists are curious people that begin to question the beliefs they were taught as children and come to the conclusion that there is no God. That doesn’t mean that these people will all of a sudden start doing horrible things because they aren’t scared of damnation anymore.

I know many atheists, some of them being my very good friends, and almost all of them were brought up Catholic. When they became atheists their moral behavior did not change at all. They were good people whether they believed or not. As I said, if you only are a good person because you don’t want to go to hell, there is something wrong.

 

[Michael1985]

hell is not God’s turing away from us, it is our tuing away from God. In the garden of Edan when Adam and Eve sinned they hid from God behind a bush, but God came looking for them. If we die in a state of mortal sin, a serious act that had no love of God neighbour or self, then I believe we will not even be able to look at God because He is so good, we will send ourselve sto hell.

 

[Mark77]

Obviously your analogy is a bad one because many atheists do live good moral lives without the threat of damnation. If you are only being good because you don’t want to go to hell you have missed the whole point. You don’t have to believe in God to want to help others and be generous.

I don’t doubt those statistics either as atheists are, on average at least, (or so I have heard) more intelligent, more educated, and richer than believers. That is not to say that every atheist is smart or every believer is stupid, but many people from lower socio economic classes are going to be more likely to not question what they were taught as kids when it comes to religion. Many atheists are curious people that begin to question the beliefs they were taught as children and come to the conclusion that there is no God. That doesn’t mean that these people will all of a sudden start doing horrible things because they aren’t scared of damnation anymore.

I know many atheists, some of them being my very good friends, and almost all of them were brought up Catholic. When they became atheists their moral behavior did not change at all. They were good people whether they believed or not. As I said, if you only are a good person because you don’t want to go to hell, there is something wrong.

**
That is exactly why you & the “more intelligent, more educated, and richer than believers” atheist have it 100% backwards.

We true Christians try to be good not to avoid hell, but to be with our Creator, God the Father, Jesus & the Holy Spirit, for all eternity in perfect Loving harmony.

Anyone whose religion (atheism) believes that the infinite, beautiful & complex universe, which is perfectly ordered, is a random mistake with no guiding force, is not as intelligent as they pretend to be!**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[JackVk]

It’s not that we doubt God and then start sinning. We start sinning and then we doubt God. Michael1985 has it right. God doesn’t damn us, we damn ourselves through sin.

And through my own personal experience, I don’t know any righteous atheists. I only know one, and he was a white supremacist who was convinced that the Nazi holocaust and the Columbine shooting were both “conspiracies”. Christians, on the other hand are the only people that don’t treat me like dirt. I don’t doubt that an atheist can be a good person, but I don’t know any that are.

 

[Apollos]

I’ve noticed that religious people often back up their imposition of their wills on other people and their attempts at controlling other people with appeals to divine punishment. This represents an immature view of right and wrong. Young adults naturally see through this but often discount the coincidence that some of the prohibitions are in fact valid for reasons deeper than “…or else you will go to hell”. Atheists skip the divine disapproval shtick, so it makes sense to me that they would be a notch more sophisticated morally than religious people.

 

[bingbang]

**
That is exactly why you & the “more intelligent, more educated, and richer than believers” atheist have it 100% backwards.

We true Christians try to be good not to avoid hell, but to be with our Creator, God the Father, Jesus & the Holy Spirit, for all eternity in perfect Loving harmony.**

Anyone whose religion (atheism) believes that the infinite, beautiful & complex universe, which is perfectly ordered, is a random mistake with no guiding force, is not as intelligent as they pretend to be!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

I’m not an atheist.

 

[bingbang]

It’s not that we doubt God and then start sinning. We start sinning and then we doubt God. Michael1985 has it right. God doesn’t damn us, we damn ourselves through sin.

And through my own personal experience, I don’t know any righteous atheists. I only know one, and he was a white supremacist who was convinced that the Nazi holocaust and the Columbine shooting were both “conspiracies”. Christians, on the other hand are the only people that don’t treat me like dirt. I don’t doubt that an atheist can be a good person, but I don’t know any that are.

You obviously don’t interact with people of different faiths. I have friends that are muslims, hindus, jews, christians, and atheists. I even have a friend whose mom is a reichi healer. All of these people are good people and the religion they follow doesn’t seem to have anything to do with how they treat others.

 

[JackVk]

You obviously don’t interact with people of different faiths. I have friends that are muslims, hindus, jews, christians, and atheists. I even have a friend whose mom is a reichi healer. All of these people are good people and the religion they follow doesn’t seem to have anything to do with how they treat others.

That is true. Remember I said that Christians are the only people who treat me right. And I know the skinhead atheist that I mentioned is just one guy. And to correct myself, I do know a guy who is some kind of “semi-agnostic”, if you know what I mean. He had a bad experience with a church who was mean to anybody who sinned, so he never had an official religion. He has Catholic friends, and they have really helped him.

 

[JerryS]

First, damnation (i.e. separation from God) is an act of the human will not the divine will. Your friend, for example, has happily separated himself from God. What remains to be seen is how unpleasant the consequences of that are.

Second, as has already been mentioned, the best motivation for holiness is yearning for eternal communion with Love. The threat of damnation may help turn a person back to God, but it’s the attraction to God that makes saints, not fear of damnation.

Third, your friend has expressed a utilitarian and logically inconsistent view of morality. We follow God through the Church because we believe it is the truth. Whether atheists or religious people are more moral has nothing to do with whether God exists and wants us to be holy. The fact of human sinfulness is not an argument against the Christian worldview. It is, in fact, central to the Christian worldview. How does your friend even pick the examples he does - divorce, incarceration, teen pregnancy? What makes him think these are bad? If there’s no morality defined outside ourselves, there is no morality, only fashion. I’d also challenge him to verify the claim that

In every country and culture where it has been studied, atheists lead a more “moral” life

. It may be, but may also be hyperbole. It’s also not clear what he means by “Christians” in this regard so the comparison is questionable. There is no unified Christian morality at this point, so “Christians” will be all over the map on some measures of “morality.” It’s even more tenuous if he means atheists versus “religious people” (Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc.).

God’s law shows us the very high standards of behavior that God sets for us. One purpose is to reveal our sinfulness. The standard is high and we all fall short to some degree. We all depend on God’s grace to bring us back into relationship with Him. Our sinful flesh needs this purpose, even if we’re trying to follow Jesus. Another purpose is to define holiness so we know in what direction to go as disciples.

All that’s well beyond the fundamental question facing an atheist - whether their faith in materialism is justified. The basis of the moral code is relevant to the question, but not the relative holiness of atheists or believers.

 

[Prophesy]

First he says : God is unconditional love with the threat of eternal damnation. I went on to give the example of raising kids with no consequences and see how that works out. He thinks that is a bad analogy & demonstrably false. He goes on to say humans have absolutely no problem doing the right thing without threat of damnation. That atheists actually have lower rates of divorce, lower rates of incarceration, lower rates of teen pregnancy, etc. etc. etc. In every country and culture where it has been studied, atheists lead a more “moral” life, all without “religious” discipline Christians seem to think is necessary.

Any info or guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks and God Bless!!

He’s making a pretty large claim. I’d probably ask for the source so you can read more into it and research the site.

Also, you may want to explain Hell by sending him the following explanation done by Fr. Robert Barron:

Fr. Robert Barron Comments on Hell

-Prophecy

 

[vera_dicere]

As a few of teh above posters have mentioned, I’d ask for him to back up his claims, as they seem rather, well, dressing.

I met an apologist this week, and he actually made an interesting comment about atheists, when they make the comment that those who beleive in God or any faith are weak and are using a crutch, you can flip that comment around, that the atheist is actually the one using his atheism as a crutch, because they’re too scared/weak to accept the truth, and accept that their conscience is nagging them about their lifestyle - so they ignore God’s existance because they’re too weak to acknowledge they might be in a spot of bother come judgement day.

However, as others have mentioned, I’ve met my fair share of “good” atheists. I have a Wiccan friend who’s very much into the “what you put out comes back three times” sort of mindset.

I’m also getting sick and tired of this “most athiests are smarter then those of faith”, I find it sterotypical and assinine. Some of the intellectually flawed [to use a harsher term, “dumbest”] people I’ve met have been atheists, and their blatant stupidity had nothign to do with theri lack of faith.

 

[joeantony]

Hi All,

I believe the person who asked the question is not trying for a better scary explanation of Hell or the effect of sin. He /She is trying to find a better intelligent answer to the questions of those curious atheists who seems to have searched for truth for awful long time but never found it.

Yes, Normally an atheist will be equipped pretty well to convince him/herself. If you want to question those convictions, you will have to try to prove their claims of non existence of God wrong. How do we do that… The Hell, Heaven, Sin, Holiness all matters if only you believe in the existence of God.

I will suggest you to read through the first pages of the abridged version of Summa Theologia by St Thomas Aquinas. I will post the whole text later. But read it and ask how he can counter “argue”.See if he himself is convinced if at all he argues.
Joe