Trying to get my head around mortal sin

[Speedypizza]

I understand why the Church has mortal and venial sins, they are in the Bible and to a point I can even see the need for them. What I find very hard to understand is the whole rules about what is and is not moral. Depending on how you wish to see them, they are used to say everybody is horribly guilty and others who use them to make it seem like almost nobody but Jack The Ripper are really guilty of any.

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
   3.It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

For example, masturbation is a mortal sin, however in order for something to be mortal, it has to be done freely. Would sexual desire lesson ones moral culpability? If so one could use the same argument for fornication? What about your normal 12 year old boy who is masturbating 5 times a day (or 2 times a week if you are some other people on here…), is that a mortal sin? If so, he would have to go to confession every week before mass in order to not be in a state of sin, and what happens if he dies during the week?

Another one I have heard that I have a real problem understanding is suicide. On paper it is a mortal sin, however the only way I could see it being mortal (meeting the requirements of a mortal sin) is if I, in a normal state of mind, shot myself in order to anger God. Why? Because if I am in horrible pain, I cannot think clearly, same if I am depressed and sad. So it is a mortal sin that cannot be a mortal sin?

I am sure I am missing something here, please explain this all to me, as more so then most of my other questions, this is one that can have eternal consequences if I get it wrong…

 

[teachccd]

Any serious matter can objectively lead to mortal sin when all three requirements are met. Mortal sin is a deliberate rejection of God in the sense that you know that the matter is serious and you just don’t care so you will the action. The 12 year old boy who is impure with himself five times a day probably lacks the maturity to rationalize the consequences of his actions therefore mitigating the culpability. One confessor told me that many sexual sins are driven such that the full consent is lessened and the cupability is lessened. I believe that regular confession is a good practice and that scrupulosity is not. Satan would want nothing more than for all of us to think that we are in a constant state of mortal sin. This would give him the edge to lead us into despair.

If you are trying to wrap your head around mortal sin I would suggest finding a good confessor and talking this out with him. You can be more specific and he can tailor the answer to your situations. Many on this forum lean towards the idea that everything sexual is automatically a mortal sin. That is not the case and ultimately only God knows if you rejected Him. I honestly do not believe that mortal sin is as easy to commit as many here might. I actually believe Jesus when He said, " Father forgive them for they know not what they do." We cannot presume God’s mercy but we also cannot undermine His infinite Love…teachccd

 

[Newbie2]

If the three conditions are met for mortal sin, then it is a mortal sin.

It is possible for there be circumstances to lessen one’s culpability for mortal sin:

1. Masturbation can be “addicting” or become a “habit”.
2. Suicide; Some have made the argument that no sane, otherwise healthy person would commit suicide, and there may be some truth to this. The depths of despair someone would have to sink to in order to lose all hope would seem to be, in many cases, evidence that one is not in their right mind and are not committing an act of their own fully free will.

There is no ruler by which we can measure culpatility. Only the Almighty can do that.

 

[JRKH]

Speedypizza,

I understand your concern and i sympathize with you. I had trouble with it too for a long time…

The Problem, in my opinion, is that too many people look at this as something “legal” instead of looking at it as a relationship. The Church’s explanation in the Catechism only promotes this and adds to the problem.

Look at it like this…Read Mt 22:36-40:
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, Your shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
From this it can easily be derived that “sin” is anything against that Love.
Further we can derive that, if we know something is against that Love, and we do it anyway, that sin is worse by the fact of knowledge and willingness.
Why is it worse? It is worse because, in order to willingly choose to sin we had to willingly reject God. That rejection might be unconscious, but is a rejection none the less.
Other times, we can sin because of a) lack of knowledge, b) force of bad habit, c) addiction d)…other… Such sins are less severe or venial…BUT…Don’t let the legalese of “venial/mortal” trip you up.
Venial sins need to be taken seriously because if they are taken too lightly they can easily lead to worse sin - and a rejection of God = Mortal sin.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[Leegal]

I understand why the Church has mortal and venial sins, they are in the Bible and to a point I can even see the need for them. What I find very hard to understand is the whole rules about what is and is not moral. Depending on how you wish to see them, they are used to say everybody is horribly guilty and others who use them to make it seem like almost nobody but Jack The Ripper are really guilty of any.

1. Its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter.
2. It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context).
   3.It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

For example, masturbation is a mortal sin, however in order for something to be mortal, it has to be done freely. Would sexual desire lesson ones moral culpability? If so one could use the same argument for fornication? What about your normal 12 year old boy who is masturbating 5 times a day (or 2 times a week if you are some other people on here…), is that a mortal sin? If so, he would have to go to confession every week before mass in order to not be in a state of sin, and what happens if he dies during the week?

Another one I have heard that I have a real problem understanding is suicide. On paper it is a mortal sin, however the only way I could see it being mortal (meeting the requirements of a mortal sin) is if I, in a normal state of mind, shot myself in order to anger God. Why? Because if I am in horrible pain, I cannot think clearly, same if I am depressed and sad. So it is a mortal sin that cannot be a mortal sin?

I am sure I am missing something here, please explain this all to me, as more so then most of my other questions, this is one that can have eternal consequences if I get it wrong…

You are missing culpability. A priest can help clear some of this up.

I would say, and I’m not a theologian, that a suicide may be less culpable in their sin because no one in their right mind would commit suicide. Something else had to be present – mental illness, depression, drug addiction, etc. God takes that into account – or we hope and pray that HE will.

A 12 year old boy who masturbates may be less culpable than a 30 year old man who does so. A 12 year old may not understand the full ramifications of masturbation and how it leads to habit – or have the requisite intent to sin. On the other hand, the 30 year old man may be in habit, which he cannot control without help – that may make him less culpable.

God decides on culpability and we can only guess because we cannot know the full circumstances. At least not for anyone else.

 

[Speedypizza]

The problem of course with going to a priest is this, WHICH priest do I go to? I know some very stern priests who I bet would tell me even looking at a girl is a mortal sin, and other very “liberal” priests who I don’t think would tell me that fornication with 5 girls at once is really a mortal, but only a venial sin. I am not trying to make light of this, but I think you see my point. I had one priest tell me that all sin is is when we miss the mark with an arrow… Others who have told me that sin is any thought, word or deed that is not 100% looking to God… Who is right in this? If I pick the wrong priest, and he gives me wrong information I am either giving up much more then I need to or not doing nearly enough to get into heaven.

 

[maplebug55]

I would just go to any priest, confess your sins, and try to be sin free in the future.
If you fail…and you will…go back to confession.

I have been there, done that. still doing that!

 

[JRKH]

The problem of course with going to a priest is this, WHICH priest do I go to? I know some very stern priests who I bet would tell me even looking at a girl is a mortal sin, and other very “liberal” priests who I don’t think would tell me that fornication with 5 girls at once is really a mortal, but only a venial sin. I am not trying to make light of this, but I think you see my point. I had one priest tell me that all sin is is when we miss the mark with an arrow… Others who have told me that sin is any thought, word or deed that is not 100% looking to God… Who is right in this? If I pick the wrong priest, and he gives me wrong information I am either giving up much more then I need to or not doing nearly enough to get into heaven.

Let me ask this, gently, seriously and in all charity.

Why is it so important to you that you fully understand this matter?

Peace
James

 

[Leegal]

The problem of course with going to a priest is this, WHICH priest do I go to? I know some very stern priests who I bet would tell me even looking at a girl is a mortal sin, and other very “liberal” priests who I don’t think would tell me that fornication with 5 girls at once is really a mortal, but only a venial sin. I am not trying to make light of this, but I think you see my point. I had one priest tell me that all sin is is when we miss the mark with an arrow… Others who have told me that sin is any thought, word or deed that is not 100% looking to God… Who is right in this? If I pick the wrong priest, and he gives me wrong information I am either giving up much more then I need to or not doing nearly enough to get into heaven.

I’m not recomending priest shopping, but I am recommending that you find a confessor who you are comfortable with. Also, call the rectory and ask if there’s a spiritual advisor. Some priests can recommend a deacon for spiritual advice and others have brothers in residence who you can speak with. You tell the priest everything you can think of and he discerns if you are more or less culpable.

I can understand that if you miss Mass repeatedly, the priest could come down hard. That’s pretty basic – you must go to Mass. I can’t imagine that a priest has not heard of and struggled with sins of the flesh and would not be more understanding.

Remember, whatever it is the priest has heard it all before.

Looking at a girl is not a sin. If you then keep the thought in your head and lust over her, scanning her body to “imagine”, then it’s lust so you have to reject the thought to go further with it. I think we pretty much know the difference between appreciating an attractive man or women and when we move to lust. We don’t go around with eyes covered and not appreciate the beauty of each other.

 

[Leegal]

I would ask if you think you are making confession wrongly, or not being able to prepare properly in thinking about the sins? For that, I do ask you to make an appointment for spirtual advice.

Possibly, a religious brother or deacon can assist you with how to prepare.

 

[StevenFrancis]

The problem of course with going to a priest is this, WHICH priest do I go to? I know some very stern priests who I bet would tell me even looking at a girl is a mortal sin, and other very “liberal” priests who I don’t think would tell me that fornication with 5 girls at once is really a mortal, but only a venial sin. I am not trying to make light of this, but I think you see my point. I had one priest tell me that all sin is is when we miss the mark with an arrow… Others who have told me that sin is any thought, word or deed that is not 100% looking to God… Who is right in this? If I pick the wrong priest, and he gives me wrong information I am either giving up much more then I need to or not doing nearly enough to get into heaven.

The good news is, you’re priest doesn’t determine what is and isn’t mortal sin. God, you’re conscience and the Church do. It is codified. Use the CCC, or other Catholic approved material to assist you in your understanding of the constituents of mortal sin, and do an honest assessment of your sins since your last confession. Approach any priest with a contrite heart, confess your sins, receive penance, be absolved, perform your penance, and don’t worry about the priest. Whether he is stern or light, or whatever. He is in persona Christi, and He alone can say those all important words of absolution. As to your last couple sentances, all any of us can do is live towards perfection. When we fall, we seek forgiveness and absolution, then we dust ourselves off, and get back to the business of living toward perfection. What is perfection? The sermon on the mount outlines it quite well. It’s too much, but nothing is impossible with God. He knows we’ll fail, and has given us his Grace to overcome our failures. We need only avail ourselves of his grace with contrition.

Blessings,

Steven

 

[Speedypizza]

Um, I think people here are off on a few things. First of all, I am in RCIA and as such I am not worthy of getting my sins absolved by any priest until we do our first confession. I am speaking in general, not personal tones here. These are questions about what makes a sin mortal and how one can tell if a said sin is or is not mortal. As of right now I am to the best of my understanding in a hell proof bubble. I WANT to go to confession and receive the sacraments, but I am not allowed to do so yet. I was told by my deacon that my desire to do them is enough if I should die before that day. Of course it is rather hard because I am not even sure what is or is not a sin, they don’t cover THAT in RCIA, its not happy clappy enough…

To make matters worse I am told that the sacraments give us grace to fight sin, if this is true I am in a war where I am not even sure who the enemy is without any weapons. Not a great place to be really. I then read the catechism and TRY to understand and apply it, but parts of it I just don’t really get. So I come here and ask about them, and get 15 answers from 10 people. Plus half of them think I am somehow asking about ME, when I am just trying to understand what makes a sin mortal or not…

 

[fred_conty]

The problem of course with going to a priest is this, WHICH priest do I go to? I know some very stern priests who I bet would tell me even looking at a girl is a mortal sin, and other very “liberal” priests who I don’t think would tell me that fornication with 5 girls at once is really a mortal, but only a venial sin. I am not trying to make light of this, but I think you see my point. I had one priest tell me that all sin is is when we miss the mark with an arrow… Others who have told me that sin is any thought, word or deed that is not 100% looking to God… Who is right in this? If I pick the wrong priest, and he gives me wrong information I am either giving up much more then I need to or not doing nearly enough to get into heaven.

As human beings inheirting the consequences of Original Sin and “doing” our own sins,
our mind(conscience) becomes cloudy. This cloud can be at times so dark that we
need someone else to guide us because we cannot trust our own conscience. We need
a good confessor who is balanced, and who we can open up to and accept his
guidance. Many of the saints have complained about this very situation, of confessors
who were not knowledgable in directing them in their spiritual life. This may be hard to
find, but well worth the search in the end. Ask other people who they think is a good
priest. But once you decide on one, then stay with him, and take his direction whether
at times you agree or not.

As far as simply confessing sins, just tell them the way they are and any degree of
uncertainty. Just say I’m not sure. And the confessor may not be able to tell you
for sure. The important idea is to tell Jesus as best you can thru the confessor.

 

[Castello]

Um, I think people here are off on a few things. First of all, I am in RCIA and as such I am not worthy of getting my sins absolved by any priest until we do our first confession. I am speaking in general, not personal tones here. These are questions about what makes a sin mortal and how one can tell if a said sin is or is not mortal. As of right now I am to the best of my understanding in a hell proof bubble. I WANT to go to confession and receive the sacraments, but I am not allowed to do so yet. I was told by my deacon that my desire to do them is enough if I should die before that day. Of course it is rather hard because I am not even sure what is or is not a sin, they don’t cover THAT in RCIA, its not happy clappy enough…

To make matters worse I am told that the sacraments give us grace to fight sin, if this is true I am in a war where I am not even sure who the enemy is without any weapons. Not a great place to be really. I then read the catechism and TRY to understand and apply it, but parts of it I just don’t really get. So I come here and ask about them, and get 15 answers from 10 people. Plus half of them think I am somehow asking about ME, when I am just trying to understand what makes a sin mortal or not…

If you have been baptized, you simply need to make your first confession. There is no “magic time” before you make your profession of Faith and enter the Church (assuming your pastor will receive you into the Church at Easter Vigil?) that you have to wait for in order to begin going to Confession. Best to get in the habit now!

 

[Speedypizza]

If you have been baptized, you simply need to make your first confession. There is no “magic time” before you make your profession of Faith and enter the Church (assuming your pastor will receive you into the Church at Easter Vigil?) that you have to wait for in order to begin going to Confession. Best to get in the habit now!

Whoa, back up here buddy. You are telling me that I can go to confession but my deacon and the entire group of RCIA instructors have been LYING to me this whole time? I have been told I CANNOT go to any of the sacraments until the right time, and I was told that was a few days before I am taken into the Church this Easter. Is this true?

 

[Castello]

I seriously doubt they have been lying to you, sometimes RCIA directors don’t have much experience.

Make an appt with your pastor. Tell him that you are ready to make your first confession. HE is the one who decides if you are prepared for it.

 

[Speedypizza]

I seriously doubt they have been lying to you, sometimes RCIA directors don’t have much experience.

Make an appt with your pastor. Tell him that you are ready to make your first confession. HE is the one who decides if you are prepared for it.

Two of these RCIA teachers have been at it for 25 years. Also I would hope my deacon would know this, unless he got to be a deacon by opening up a lucky box of Cracker Jacks.

 

[JRKH]

Um, I think people here are off on a few things. First of all, I am in RCIA and as such I am not worthy of getting my sins absolved by any priest until we do our first confession. I am speaking in general, not personal tones here. These are questions about what makes a sin mortal and how one can tell if a said sin is or is not mortal. As of right now I am to the best of my understanding in a hell proof bubble. I WANT to go to confession and receive the sacraments, but I am not allowed to do so yet. I was told by my deacon that my desire to do them is enough if I should die before that day. Of course it is rather hard because I am not even sure what is or is not a sin, they don’t cover THAT in RCIA, its not happy clappy enough…

To make matters worse I am told that the sacraments give us grace to fight sin, if this is true I am in a war where I am not even sure who the enemy is without any weapons. Not a great place to be really. I then read the catechism and TRY to understand and apply it, but parts of it I just don’t really get. So I come here and ask about them, and get 15 answers from 10 people. Plus half of them think I am somehow asking about ME, when I am just trying to understand what makes a sin mortal or not…

Maybe this will help to understand Mortal sin…One Simple statement.

“One cannot accidentally commit a Mortal sin.”

Peace
James

 

[StevenFrancis]

Um, I think people here are off on a few things. First of all, I am in RCIA and as such I am not worthy of getting my sins absolved by any priest until we do our first confession. I am speaking in general, not personal tones here. These are questions about what makes a sin mortal and how one can tell if a said sin is or is not mortal. As of right now I am to the best of my understanding in a hell proof bubble. I WANT to go to confession and receive the sacraments, but I am not allowed to do so yet. I was told by my deacon that my desire to do them is enough if I should die before that day. Of course it is rather hard because I am not even sure what is or is not a sin, they don’t cover THAT in RCIA, its not happy clappy enough…

To make matters worse I am told that the sacraments give us grace to fight sin, if this is true I am in a war where I am not even sure who the enemy is without any weapons. Not a great place to be really. I then read the catechism and TRY to understand and apply it, but parts of it I just don’t really get. So I come here and ask about them, and get 15 answers from 10 people. Plus half of them think I am somehow asking about ME, when I am just trying to understand what makes a sin mortal or not…

Mortal is grave matter, (it wounds our relationship with God in it’s severity. i.e., it breaks one of the 10 commandments) - Examples - Not going to Mass, Stealing, Killing, Sex outside of marriage (1 woman to 1 man); Sex while married (1 woman to 1 man) with someone who is not your spouse

Knowledge of the sin; Examples - Knew not going to mass was a sin’ Knew taking something which didn’t belong to you, and without it being given to you was a sin’ Knew that killing someone without cause was a sin’ Knew fornication and adultery were sins.

Cooperation with evil - With full knowledge of the grave matter, and sinfulness of an act, you went ahead and did it anyway. You skipped out on Mass to watch the Giants game because that was what was more important to you; You decided to steal a watch at a store when nobody was looking, though you know that stealing is wrong; You are not married, and you know that sexual activity is sinful for you, but you do it anyway. You are married to your wife or husband, but you have sex with a friend at work, knowing full well that to do so is a sin. You engage in an act of sex with someone of the same gender, knowing full well that this is a sin.

Venial sin examples. You forgot it was Sunday, or that it was a Holy Day of obligation, and didn’t realize your blunder until it was too late to attend mass. You are immediately sorry and apologetic. You accidentally walk out of a store while reading one of their magazines. ( you later bring it back and pay for it). It goes on and on. Most of us commit venial sin on a fairly regular basis. Not everyone, but most.

Someone else summed it up nicely. You can’t accidentally commit mortal sin. You can’t accidentally go to hell.

The most important thing that Christians do, or at least try to do, (I hope), is to avoid those many many “near occasions” of sin. Cut back on our temptations. The more you learn about mortal sin, the more culpable you are in cooperating with evil when you fall. So Christ helps us by giving us a new faculty. A strong ability to know about our own nature, and an enhancement of the innate ability to detect the situations which lead us to sin, (our weaknesses and temptations), then with prayer, and grace, we are given the strength to set up new habits of avoiding those situations which would cause us to sin, (“if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it away”). This is a deeply treasured gift of grace, which I can attest does indeed come with prayer fasting, and obedience to God. It is the most liberating feeling I’ve ever had. Each time I am faced with a weak spot temptation it becomes less and less insidious, and easier to walk away from. It’s awesome to finally understand the freedom to do what one ought to do as true freedom. It sounds so simple, but it has been a lifetime struggle. Most of the time, until recently, not even knowing what I was struggling for. What my goal was in the idea of “freedom” which I misunderstood my whole life, essentially. Getting side tracked.

Anyway, I hope you’re getting an idea from others here what mortal sin is and isn’t now. I doubt anyone has been trying to deceive you, or imply anything bad. We can each only answer to the best of our own ability.

God bless,

Steven

 

[Tenofovir]

God decides on culpability and we can only guess because we cannot know the full circumstances. At least not for anyone else.

I think very few people willingly reject God when sinning. Most people still believe that they have a relationship with God even when they sin, after all, our closest analogy are our own parents or our own children. When they do something naughty (or even terrible), we don’t reject them. I honestly can’t think of a situation I would reject my child or my parent - be they a murderer, I would still stand by them without them having to ask for my help. Of course God is much better, and God is perfect and merciful and omniscient. God also gave us our parents and children and commanded us to love them. Love also emanates from God, as does goodness, and all good things come from God who is the ground of all existence. The state of hell is separation from God and therefore all good. If your parents don’t reject you when you take the family car and crash it, or you don’t reject your child when they were truant and failed a grade, it is less conceivable that God would do so. It is a difficult thing to get through in peoples’ minds. Now it may be that we are separated from God by the barrier or sin, but to our minds there is still this unfathomable block that since our own parents would not reject us would we even spit in their faces, how can God? I think that is inconceivable for many of us. Also we (or at least I) love God not because I am afraid of God, but because God chose to allow me to live and supports my very existence at every moment. No-one else could give me that, and all good things (and all trials which inevitably end in good things anyway) come from God. God is love. And therefore it is especially bad to sin against God because we are spitting in the face of the One who gives us all, and we are nailing Him to the cross each time. There is a dualism of feelings.

The other problem is that people can become too legalistic. They watch out for sins and do their obligations but have no time to love. If you have no time to love, all of the rest is for nothing.

“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”
1 Corinthians 13:2

(A person who regularly attends Mass and goes to confession but has no charity, will also end up in hell?)

Your thoughts? Can anyone comment on the psychology of sin? Does the Church have comments? Thanks.