Trying to understand Catholic tradition on salvation and eternity

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codefro

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So to sum it up-

As I read through the forums on questions of salvation I feel the need to seek clarification.

The CCC points out that one may not be saved if they die in a state of mortal sin. One example may be a Catholic skipping Mass and dying before being absolved.

Why then do I see people saying “It doesn’t matter what religion you are, just be a good person, love God, and do good.” ???

If losing one’s salvation is a big deal- for a Catholic to miss Mass and not be absolved- why then do people make it sound like it is so easy for non-Catholics to get into heaven?

I also want to politely ask anyone who is going to say something along the lines of “nobody really knows who gets into Heaven” to not reply. Obviously there is some idea in the church of who gets saved and I am asking for a magisterial interpretation of the subject.
 
I am speaking on matters of who goes to heaven is my subject really.
 
Wishful thinking.
Misunderstanding.
Ignorance.
Over simplification.

That’s for starters.
 
codefro said:
So to sum it up-

As I read through the forums on questions of salvation I feel the need to seek clarification.

The CCC points out that one may not be saved if they die in a state of mortal sin. One example may be a Catholic skipping Mass and dying before being absolved.

Why then do I see people saying “It doesn’t matter what religion you are, just be a good person, love God, and do good.” ???

If losing one’s salvation is a big deal- for a Catholic to miss Mass and not be absolved- why then do people make it sound like it is so easy for non-Catholics to get into heaven?

I also want to politely ask anyone who is going to say something along the lines of “nobody really knows who gets into Heaven” to not reply. Obviously there is some idea in the church of who gets saved and I am asking for a magisterial interpretation of the subject.
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You can go to Hell for mssing Mass? 🤷
 
Well then can someone ellaborate a little on the correct view?

As far as I have understood, one may not necessarily be Catholic to be saved. Although, the CCC says that one must be baptized in order to achieve Salvation.

:confused:

How do you guys lay this out for Non-Catholic friends?
 
codefro said:
Well, from listening to CAF admins talk, it is not a guarantee of being damned. One’s soul could be in danger though.
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Wow! That’s not an encouragement to become Catholic, that’s for sure! It’s very scary to think that I could end up spending eternity in Hell that easily. Very overwhelming and discouraging. I’m not sure I can spend my life in a constant state of panic (and I would be). 😦
 
The technically correct answer is “No salvation outside the Church.”

However, for unbaptized babies, people that have never heard of Jesus, people that commit suicide in a less-than-rational state of mind, people that miss Mass but get run over by a truck on their way to Confession, etc., the technical answer is “we entrust their souls to the mercy of God.” I believe that is a recognition of the infinite Justice as well as infinite Mercy, and a recognition that God is the final arbiter of who is saved and who is not, since only He knows the true state of someone’s soul, regardless of what the outside appearances may be.
 
Journey322 said:
You can go to Hell for mssing Mass? 🤷
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Well, depends on your intention. You cannot fault someone who’s not Catholic for missing Mass. Or you can’t fault someone who’s sick. Laws in the Church are not absolute because there’s always the factor of the conscience which is only God can see and judge. The same way we say murder is evil but killing because of self defense is justifiable. Its the intention ultimately that will decide the gravity of the matter.
codefro said:
Well then can someone ellaborate a little on the correct view?

As far as I have understood, one may not necessarily be Catholic to be saved. Although, the CCC says that one must be baptized in order to achieve Salvation.

:confused:

How do you guys lay this out for Non-Catholic friends?
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Our goal and objective is to live in the life of God. We live as God lives, love as God loves. As Jesus said, be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Its nearly impossible to be perfect on our own, that is why we must be baptized to open ourselves for the spiritual gifts of God so with His graces we can live close to the perfection that Christ asks of us. We cannot do it alone.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Well, depends on your intention. You cannot fault someone who’s not Catholic for missing Mass. Or you can’t fault someone who’s sick. Laws in the Church are not absolute because there’s always the factor of the conscience which is only God can see and judge. The same way we say murder is evil but killing because of self defense is justifiable. Its the intention ultimately that will decide the gravity of the matter.

Our goal and objective is to live in the life of God. We live as God lives, love as God loves. As Jesus said, be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Its nearly impossible to be perfect on our own, that is why we must be baptized to open ourselves for the spiritual gifts of God so with His graces we can live close to the perfection that Christ asks of us. We cannot do it alone.
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And to those not baptized in the Catholic Church?
 
codefro said:
And to those not baptized in the Catholic Church?
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I ask my priest about this giving the example of a mormon who is good in every way but not catholic or believing in the trinity. I asked him if God would condemn them even though they had lived a very good life helping many people. Father pointed out in the CC that there is a baptism of the will or some such passage. I am sorry I don’t have the exact verse.

As for not going to heaven because you miss mass or some other mortal sin.

Committing a mortal sin isn’t an easy task. There is a lot of thought and action to go along with the act. If you are in a state of mortal sin the church states you have hell to look forward too. But I would argue not many people are in a true state of mortal sin.

God isn’t waiting with a hammer to pound us into oblivion, hardly, God wants us with him and he has done everything possible to make it that way for us and for us to continue to me free spirits.
 
codefro said:
And to those not baptized in the Catholic Church?
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Baptism needn’t be performed by a priest or deacon of the Catholic Church. In fact, baptism is a sacrament that anyone, even an unbelieving atheist, can administer.

The concept that the Church uses that gives, say, Protestants a chance, is invincible ignorance. That is, they are so ignorant of the Catholic Truth that they cannot be blamed for their subscribing to a religion that is, technically, still a heresy. The ones who truly believe that they are right and Catholicism is wrong, and they (not all of them but many of them) cannot be blamed for it. At the same time, this is not to say that they cannot commit mortal sin. They can. Not all Protestants go to heaven, and not all of them go to hell either. Murder is a mortal sin, except in certain extenuating circumstances, for everyone, and it is part of the consciences of all except psychopaths.
 
codefro said:
And to those not baptized in the Catholic Church?
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Baptism is baptism. So long as the sacrament is validly performed, there is no difference (so far as Eternity is concerned) between Catholic and other Christian baptisms.

Usagi
 
The great theologian, Hans Urs von Balthasar (who some wrongly consider to be a liberal) correctly points out that the Church has never definitively proclaimed one single person to be in Hell; i.e. to be damned. The Church only declares who we know for certain is in heaven. For the rest, it is our Christian duty to hope and pray that not one soul is in Hell. Truth is, we will never know in this life.

Along related lines, as far as non-Catholics and non-Christians are concerned, Eastern Christianity has a wonderful saying: “We know where the Church is, what we do not know is where it isn’t.” This is perhaps a more poetic way of affirming the whole “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood” thing. Again whether or not non-Catholics and non-Christians enjoy eternal beatitude or eternal damnation is none of our business. That is God’s decision alone. Christian charity demands that we hope and pray that all of our fellow men will be saved through Christ’s redemptive power.

There is a wonderful story of a young monk who asked an elder monk about such matters. The elder monk simply replied, “Mind your own business.” 👍
 
As far as dieing in a state of mortal sin is concerned, it is still possible, according to Roman/Latin theology (the East works things out differently), for one who dies with unconfessed mortal sin to attain heaven. The circumstance would be something along the lines of the person intended to confess, but was unable to make it to confession before they died.

Also, making a perfect Act of Contrition supposedly removes the mortal sin from your soul, but does not yet put you right with the Church. Hence the sin is forgiven, but in order to be restored to the reception of Communion you must go to confession. I’m a bit fuzzy on this bit, so I’m open to correction. 😛
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
The great theologian, Hans Urs von Balthasar (who some wrongly consider to be a liberal) correctly points out that the Church has never definitively proclaimed one single person to be in Hell; i.e. to be damned. The Church only declares who we know for certain is in heaven. For the rest, it is our Christian duty to hope and pray that not one soul is in Hell. Truth is, we will never know in this life.

Along related lines, as far as non-Catholics and non-Christians are concerned, Eastern Christianity has a wonderful saying: “We know where the Church is, what we do not know is where it isn’t.” This is perhaps a more poetic way of affirming the whole “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood” thing. Again whether or not non-Catholics and non-Christians enjoy eternal beatitude or eternal damnation is none of our business. That is God’s decision alone. Christian charity demands that we hope and pray that all of our fellow men will be saved through Christ’s redemptive power.

There is a wonderful story of a young monk who asked an elder monk about such matters. The elder monk simply replied, “Mind your own business.” 👍
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Excellent point. I stand corrected in my post.
 
Journey322 said:
Wow! That’s not an encouragement to become Catholic, that’s for sure! It’s very scary to think that I could end up spending eternity in Hell that easily. Very overwhelming and discouraging. I’m not sure I can spend my life in a constant state of panic (and I would be). 😦
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Umm, what makes you think that if you weren’t Catholic you wouldn’t wind up outside heaven? (Of course obviously I hope that NONE of us will ever wind up outside of heaven and that one day we will all be together with Christ to know, love and serve Him)

You obviously wouldn’t commit a mortal sin by missing Mass if you weren’t Catholic. . .

but without the fullness of faith, the gift of Christ Himself in the Eucharist, and the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, don’t you think you risk committing plenty of other mortal sins that (had you chosen the Catholic Church and abided by its teachings faithfully) you would have been able to avoid?
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
As far as dieing in a state of mortal sin is concerned, it is still possible, according to Roman/Latin theology (the East works things out differently), for one who dies with unconfessed mortal sin to attain heaven. The circumstance would be something along the lines of the person intended to confess, but was unable to make it to confession before they died.
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It should be noted that it is usually stated that one who dies with unrepentant mortal sins on their souls risk Hell (though, technically we all risk Hell on day to day basis).

It is unknown to us just how much the personal sorrow of sin properly reflects our desire to be united to Christ. While we certainly shouldn’t take it lightly or for granted, there is no end to the infinite Mercy of Jesus. You make an excellent point about the intention to confess but perhaps not making it before we die.

There are prayer cards at my church and among them is St. Ambrose’s Prayer Before Mass. One line in particular has recently influenced my thinking and reflection. It reads “and I ardently desire to have Him as my savior, who I cannot withstand as my judge.”
 
Journey322 said:
Wow! That’s not an encouragement to become Catholic, that’s for sure! It’s very scary to think that I could end up spending eternity in Hell that easily. Very overwhelming and discouraging. I’m not sure I can spend my life in a constant state of panic (and I would be). 😦
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But it’s not that easy. As another poster has said, there has to be intent. You have to know that what you are doing is a grave offense, and I would argue that a lot of Catholics view weekly Mass as a “rule” or “obligation” and don’t fully understand. To commit a mortal sin is to knowingly and deliberately reject Christ.
 
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