Trying to understand Catholic tradition on salvation and eternity

[w_s_s]

I ask my priest about this giving the example of a mormon who is good in every way but not catholic or believing in the trinity. I asked him if God would condemn them even though they had lived a very good life helping many people. Father pointed out in the CC that there is a baptism of the will or some such passage. I am sorry I don’t have the exact verse.

Father may have been speaking of the “baptism of desire.” Unfortunately such will not help the Mormon, because the baptism of desire requires… well, desire to be baptized.

Committing a mortal sin isn’t an easy task. There is a lot of thought and action to go along with the act. If you are in a state of mortal sin the church states you have hell to look forward too. But I would argue not many people are in a true state of mortal sin.

You are wrong. Most people are in a true state of mortal sin. Not because, as you said, “God is waiting with a hammer to pound us into oblivion”, but because most people have no true love of God and no desire to seek God. Most people immerse themselves in worldly pursuits, hardly giving a thought to their eternal destiny.

You are quite right to say that God isn’t waiting with a hammer to pound us into oblivion, but most people choose to place more importance on worldly things than on God. This life on Earth is our trial. It is our chance to choose God, but most people are not choosing God and thus, in the end, they will be damned.

As for not going to heaven because you miss mass or some other mortal sin.

Lets go back to this and explore just how easy it is to commit a mortal sin by missing Mass. In order to commit a mortal sin, three things are necessary: 1) grave matter (that is, the thing done is “sufficiently bad”) 2) sufficient reflection (that is, you understand that the contemplated thing is sinful) 3) full consent (that is, you fully intend to do it, despite knowing that you are thereby offending God)

In the case of missing Mass on Sunday, the Church has clearly stated that failing to participate at Mass on Sunday is grave matter. Most Catholics are well aware of this fact.

If a Catholic were to fail to participate in Mass by willfully refusing to do so, although he easily could do so, even though he may have a reason such as “too busy”, “too tired”, “weather is so nice”, “paid a lot for the game tickets”, etc. all the while fully understanding that it is a sin to do so, then he has committed a mortal sin and can expect eternal damnation. And the number of Catholics who do this every now and then is truly not small.

As Our Lord said: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

disclaimers for the people who need such:

1. Of course we have no knowledge of the state of any individual soul or the eternal destiny of any individual person, of which the saints remind us when they point out that no matter what we individual Catholics think of the state of our soul, no matter how often or how sincere our confessions, we cannot exclude the possibility that we ourselves are in the state of mortal sin and will be damned
2. Of course there are legitimate reasons for missing Mass. Such are the reasons that prevent us from participating, against our preference and desire to do so.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Some excellent responses. Thankyou.

In regard to baptism of desire and invincible ignorance, our Priest has told us in catechism that whilst they are certainly achievable, in reality they are very difficult if not impossible to achieve.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Some excellent responses. Thankyou.

In regard to baptism of desire and invincible ignorance, our Priest has told us in catechism that whilst they are certainly achievable, in reality they are very difficult if not impossible to achieve.

Pure conjecture on the part of your part of your priest. The Church has never made any sort of declaration as to the difficulty of baptism by desire or invincible ignorance.

 

[ConstantineTG]

And to those not baptized in the Catholic Church?

We don’t know. Jesus said He is the only judge, and we are not to judge. He gave us what to do to be assured of salvation. He didn’t say those who didn’t do all those will not be saved. He gave parables when even the most corrupt of rulers would forgive debts. Ultimately its Christ who judges who is saved and not.

I think of the Catholic Church this way. Christ is a person by the side of the road and we’re a driver driving through life. Christ tells us to get on the highway and get off the 7th exit to get to heaven. The highway is the Catholic Church. We can take the side roads and reach the destination. But its no guarantee. We’re on our own and if we get lost, we don’t know if we’re heading the right direction until it is too late.

Wouldn’t you follow the path that Christ laid out and not take your chances?

 

[Incomplete]

In the case of missing Mass on Sunday, the Church has clearly stated that failing to participate at Mass on Sunday is grave matter. Most Catholics are well aware of this fact.

Of course we have no knowledge of the state of any individual soul or the eternal destiny of any individual person, of which the saints remind us when they point out that no matter what we individual Catholics think of the state of our soul, no matter how often or how sincere our confessions, we cannot exclude the possibility that we ourselves are in the state of mortal sin and will be damned

The Church has clearly stated, but that doesn’t mean that a lot of Catholics truly understand. The Church itself says you have to have full knowledge to commit a mortal sin. I don’t understand how a Catholic who doesn’t understand the necessity of adhering to Catholic teaching is any different than a protestant when it comes to full knowledge.

Regarding the saints, I’m not sure what saints have said we cannot exclude the possibility that we ourselves are in mortal sin, no matter what we think of the state of our soul. This sounds to me like they are saying you can love God with all your heart and think you are doing His will, and are following Him to the best of your ability, and still be damned. Maybe some saints did say that, but that is not Church teaching. You need to have full knowledge and full consent before you can commit a mortal sin.

 

[Incomplete]

We don’t know. Jesus said He is the only judge, and we are not to judge. He gave us what to do to be assured of salvation. He didn’t say those who didn’t do all those will not be saved. He gave parables when even the most corrupt of rulers would forgive debts. Ultimately its Christ who judges who is saved and not.

I think of the Catholic Church this way. Christ is a person by the side of the road and we’re a driver driving through life. Christ tells us to get on the highway and get off the 7th exit to get to heaven. The highway is the Catholic Church. We can take the side roads and reach the destination. But its no guarantee. We’re on our own and if we get lost, we don’t know if we’re heading the right direction until it is too late.

Wouldn’t you follow the path that Christ laid out and not take your chances?

I like your analogy.

 

[Vico]

But it’s not that easy. As another poster has said, there has to be intent. You have to know that what you are doing is a grave offense, and I would argue that a lot of Catholics view weekly Mass as a “rule” or “obligation” and don’t fully understand. To commit a mortal sin is to knowingly and deliberately reject Christ.

One is culpable for intentionaly not learning what the Church teaches on the topic however.

 

[Incomplete]

One is culpable for intentionaly not learning what the Church teaches on the topic however.

Certainly. The key word is intent.

 

[w_s_s]

Pure conjecture on the part of your part of your priest. The Church has never made any sort of declaration as to the difficulty of baptism by desire or invincible ignorance.

However the Church has said that justification comes from “the sacraments … or the desire thereof”. The baptism of desire is not anything other than the justification of those who die without baptism although they possess a true desire to be validly baptized. So it is not applicable for those “good people” who have no desire for a Christian baptism.

 

[w_s_s]

The Church has clearly stated, but that doesn’t mean that a lot of Catholics truly understand. The Church itself says you have to have full knowledge to commit a mortal sin. I don’t understand how a Catholic who doesn’t understand the necessity of adhering to Catholic teaching is any different than a protestant when it comes to full knowledge.

Perhaps you meet different people than me. I have met Catholics who fully understand what the Church teaches, fully admit that it is wrong to miss Mass, but say “God wouldn’t send me to Hell for missing Mass every now and then.” Strangely enough, they’re right. But they may very likely send themselves to Hell with that attitude.

Regarding the saints, I’m not sure what saints have said we cannot exclude the possibility that we ourselves are in mortal sin, no matter what we think of the state of our soul. This sounds to me like they are saying you can love God with all your heart and think you are doing His will, and are following Him to the best of your ability, and still be damned. Maybe some saints did say that, but that is not Church teaching. You need to have full knowledge and full consent before you can commit a mortal sin.

I erred somewhat in my post by conflating two different things. The Church plainly teaches that no one knows whether they will be damned or saved. But we can have great confidence, if not 100% absolute certainty, that we are in the state of grace if we are making an attempt to be so and have availed ourselves of the sacraments. So you are correct there.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

However the Church has said that justification comes from “the sacraments … or the desire thereof”. The baptism of desire is not anything other than the justification of those who die without baptism although they possess a true desire to be validly baptized. So it is not applicable for those “good people” who have no desire for a Christian baptism.

If I remember correctly, baptism by desire also applies to those who have not been presented the Faith, but would desire baptism if the Faith were presented to them. I could be wrong on that, but I think I remember reading it in one of the Catechisms I’ve read, possibly the old Baltimore Catechism.

 

[Vico]

** CCC
**
**VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM **

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Thanks, Vico. Number 1260 was what I was getting at. I wonder though, what of those to whom the Gospel has been preached, but not in such a way as to make it acceptable, believable, understandable… (at this late hour the proper word is eluding me)?

 

[Vico]

Thanks, Vico. Number 1260 was what I was getting at. I wonder though, what of those to whom the Gospel has been preached, but not in such a way as to make it acceptable, believable, understandable… (at this late hour the proper word is eluding me)?

Poor Catechesis? I think it could mitigate. But acceptable, believeable, undersatandable I think would be less mitigation. Raising from the dead and Assumption into Heaven is not readily believable yet must be accepted on faith. Also many do not understand the religion, but nevertheless should accepted it with faith. But whence comes faith but from the strength of supernatural virtue?

From The Faith Explained, by Leo J. Trese (p. 124-127):
**
**
“… a habit bestowed upon the soul directly by God, is called a supernatural virtue… Chief among the supernatural virtues are those three which we call the theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity. … These three virtues are infused into our soul along with sanctifying grace, in the sacrament of Baptism. … the four supernatural moral virtues that are infused into the soul at baptism with sanctifying grace, are prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance. … they are called the four cardinal virtues. … whatever increases sanctifying grace will increase the infused virtues.”

Also he writes (p. 128-129),

“…it is only the supernatural faith, this virtue of divine faith which is infused at baptism, that makes it possible for us to believe firmly and completely all the truths, even the most ineffable and mysterious truths, which God has revealed. Without such faith we who have reached the use of reason cannot be saved. The virtue of faith alone will save the baptized infant, but with the age of reason there must be the act of faith as well.”

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Yeah, thanks Vico. Poor catechesis or presentation is more what I was looking for. Again, at this late hour I was struggling for the right words.

 

[BertBlyleven]

Wow! That’s not an encouragement to become Catholic, that’s for sure! It’s very scary to think that I could end up spending eternity in Hell that easily. Very overwhelming and discouraging. I’m not sure I can spend my life in a constant state of panic (and I would be).

Would you rather we lie, jeoparadizing our own souls (and yours)?

 

[Incomplete]

Perhaps you meet different people than me. I have met Catholics who fully understand what the Church teaches, fully admit that it is wrong to miss Mass, but say “God wouldn’t send me to Hell for missing Mass every now and then.” Strangely enough, they’re right. But they may very likely send themselves to Hell with that attitude.

I think you must be right, because most of the folks I know who disagree with this teaching don’t admit that it’s wrong to miss Mass. They don’t fully understand the Church, and the authority of the Church, and it’s one reason they are cafeteria Catholics. Many of them are like I used to be. There was a time in my life when I just didn’t believe it was wrong to miss Mass. I went, but only because I figured it was a way to show God I love Him.

Now I go daily. People change. That’s why I try to be patient and understanding with those who truly don’t understand.

 

[Vico]

I think you must be right, because most of the folks I know who disagree with this teaching don’t admit that it’s wrong to miss Mass. They don’t fully understand the Church, and the authority of the Church, and it’s one reason they are cafeteria Catholics. Many of them are like I used to be. There was a time in my life when I just didn’t believe it was wrong to miss Mass. I went, but only because I figured it was a way to show God I love Him.

Now I go daily. People change. That’s why I try to be patient and understanding with those who truly don’t understand.

It is normal to teach before first Communion (for those receiving Catechesis) the precepts of the Church, which includes Sunday liturgical participation. I think it is too common for people to not understand scandal, to misunderstand that we need to express charity in being a good behavioral example to all, and charity to God through it at the same time, because it is the will of God to behave that way.

I wonder what is at the root of our reluctance to continue to educate ourselves in the faith, that we may ensure we be eternally saved.

 

[Incomplete]

It is normal to teach before first Communion (for those receiving Catechesis) the precepts of the Church, which includes Sunday liturgical participation. I think it is too common for people to not understand scandal, to misunderstand that we need to express charity in being a good behavioral example to all, and charity to God through it at the same time, because it is the will of God to behave that way.

I wonder what is at the root of our reluctance to continue to educate ourselves in the faith, that we may ensure we be eternally saved.

That’s a good question. I’m not sure that it’s reluctance, as much as it is not really thinking about it. But I say that based on my own experience, so that’s not necessarily a good indicator.

For me, for example, we did not study the precepts of the Church before First Communion. (Neither did my daughter all these years later.) Still, if we had, without being taught about the Church and the reasons to follow Her teachings, the importance of it, people just make up their own minds what to believe.

There are a number of things I have done in my past that I am pretty sure were not mortal sins because they were not committed in full knowledge. Now they would be mortal, now that I finally understand. (No worries, though; I’ve been to confession. )

But it wasn’t reluctance to educate myself in the faith. In reality, I thought I understood it. I know lots of people like that, people who think they “get it” but don’t really. Or they know the teachings (which I did to some degree) but don’t really understand the gravity of going against them. In fact, I was sure I was “saved”, and I might have been if I had died then, because I had no concept of the gravity of some of my behaviors. I certainly thought I still had a pretty good relationship with God. So there was no reason to study to “ensure” anything, not in my mind. In fact, a good friend turned back to God because of things she saw in me at that time.

For me, it took a spiritual crisis for me to decide I needed to educate myself further. It changed my life. I’m so grateful. What seemed like such a bad thing at the time has been a great thing. I have been very blessed.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

I ask my priest about this giving the example of a mormon who is good in every way but not catholic or believing in the trinity. I asked him if God would condemn them even though they had lived a very good life helping many people. Father pointed out in the CC that there is a baptism of the will or some such passage. I am sorry I don’t have the exact verse.

As for not going to heaven because you miss mass or some other mortal sin.

Committing a mortal sin isn’t an easy task. There is a lot of thought and action to go along with the act. If you are in a state of mortal sin the church states you have hell to look forward too. But I would argue not many people are in a true state of mortal sin.

God isn’t waiting with a hammer to pound us into oblivion, hardly, God wants us with him and he has done everything possible to make it that way for us and for us to continue to me free spirits.

To be fair though Scripture combined with approved Marian apparitions as well as countless Saints all warn of the large number of people going to hell (especially recently due to the hyper sexualization of our society). Sin is sin. St. Augustine (I believe) wrote of how there were many married couples going to hell for sexual immorality since they strayed from what is holy and just within the confines of marital sex (ie not finishing the act open to life, thus it becoming self gratification and a mortal sin). I agree completely that God isn’t sitting around waiting to condemn someone, far from it. But to assume that we have tons of leverage and that few of us truly have to worry about the potential of being condemned is a serious matter and not one I’d rest my laurels on. No sense living in constant fear or paranoia or becoming scrupulous but we should be ever aware of the state of our soul (as best as we can) and always try to adhere to God’s will and the will of the Church and seek confession as often as necessary to entrust ourselves fully to the Blessed Trinity.