Trying to understand Original Sin

[noorez]

First post (and sorry if this is in the wrong place…)

I am trying to understand the doctrine of original sin as a muslim. Below I have posted my thoughts on the matter and I would appreciate a Catholic response to my thoughts to put things into perspective for me:

"It is misleading to make the claim that we inherit a ‘sinful nature’ from Adam. ‘Sinful nature’ is a very Christian term which refers back to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, a doctrine which is rejected in Islam. It would perhaps be more fair to say we inherit ‘human nature’. Human nature in its entirety and the way human nature has always been. Human beings, by nature are not perfect and cannot act perfectly; only almighty Allah is perfect and only Allah can act perfectly. It is preposterous to claim that God created and expected (or ever expected) human beings to be 100% obedient and always act perfectly (I’m not proposing an excuse to intentionally sin; God wishes us to keep his commandments and act well). Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect. In order that we do not become lost, God provides us guidance in this matter. God wishes us to recognize this imperfectness within us (thereby recognizing his superiority), ask forgiveness for our misdeeds and have complete faith in his mercy.

No original sin that needs to be atoned for by a blood sacrifice. All persons are born clean, innocent and pure. There is no spiritual affliction or illness that we are born with. To use catholic terminology, we are all born in a ‘state of grace’. "

Peace of Allah on you all

 

[Zekariya]

Original Sin
Original sin is defined as the lack of sanctifying grace.
The lack of sanctifying grace causes us to be, from the moment of conception, turned away from God.
Since it is sinful to be turned away from God, the lack of sanctifying grace is original sin.

Extranatural Man and Natural Man
extranatural man had the gift of being exempt from physical death.
Lack of exemption from physical death and suffering are a part of natural man.

extranatural man had the gift of complete mastery of his inclinations.
Lack of mastery of the inclinations of the flesh is a part of natural man.

extranatural man had the gift of sanctifying grace; it allowed him to remain turned towards God.
Lack of sanctifying grace is part of natural man; it causes him to remain turned away from God.

Summery
Man lost the Divine gifts of God after the fall, however, the nature of man has in no way been changed. Rather, man lost the Divine gifts that were dependent on his obedience to the command of God. Sanctifying grace is a perfect conformity with God who is the first rule of all morality. Consequently the lack of sanctifying grace is a stain, a moral deformity, a turning away from God. Also, this character is not found in any other effect of the fault of Adam.

There is no sin in physical death and suffering; these are natural to man.
The the lack of complete mastery of inclinations is not sinful in and of itself.
The lacking of sanctifying grace, therefore, is the hereditary stain we call original sin.

Original Sin Defined:

Original sin is the privation of justice (in modern terms: “sanctifying grace”) in consequence of the sin of Adam.

According to Catholic theology man has not lost his natural faculties. By the sin of Adam, he has been deprived only of the Divine gifts to which his nature had no strict right. Here are the extranatural faculties that Adam lost: the complete mastery of his passions, exemption from death, sanctifying grace, the vision of God in the next life. The Creator, whose gifts were not due to the human race, had the right to bestow them on such conditions as He wished and to make their conservation depend on the fidelity of the head of the family (i.e. Adam).

One man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul. As death is the privation of the principle of life, the death of the soul is the privation of sanctifying grace which according to all theologians is the principle of extranatural life. Therefore, if original sin is “the death of the soul”, it [original sin] is the privation of sanctifying grace.

The Council of Trent, although it did not make this solution obligatory by a definition, regarded it with favour and authorized its use: Original sin is described not only as the death of the soul, but as a “privation of justice that each child contracts at its conception”. But the Council calls “justice” what we call sanctifying grace, and as each child should have had personally his own justice so now after the fall he suffers his own privation of justice.

St Augustine of Hippo says, “The deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin.” St Ambrose of Milan says, “The sin of Adam was one thing but the sin of children at their birth is quite another, the former was the cause, the latter is the effect.” In a child original sin is distinct from the fault of Adam, it is one of its effects. But which of these effects is it? We shall examine the several effects of Adam’s fault and reject those which cannot be original sin:

(1) Death and Suffering.- These are purely physical evils and cannot be called sin. Moreover St. Paul, and after him the councils, regarded death and original sin as two distinct things transmitted by Adam.

(2) Concupiscence .- This rebellion of the lower appetite transmitted to us by Adam is an occasion of sin, and in that sense comes nearer to moral evil. However, having an opportunity to sin is not necessarily a fault, and while original sin is remitted by baptism concupiscence still remains in the person baptized; therefore concupiscence is not a part of original sin and cannot be one and the same thing, as was held by the early Protestants.

(3) The absence of sanctifying grace in the new-born child is also an effect of the first sin, for Adam, having received holiness and justice from God, lost it not only for himself but also for us. If he has lost it for us, we were to have received it from him at our birth. Therefore the absence of sanctifying grace in a child is a real privation, it is the lack of something that should have been in him according to the Divine plan. If this favour is not merely something physical but is something in the moral order, if it is holiness, its privation may be called a sin. But sanctifying grace is holiness and is so called by the Council of Trent, because holiness consists in union with God, and grace unites us intimately with God. Moral goodness consists in this, that our action is according to the moral law, but grace is a perfect conformity with God who is the first rule of all morality. Sanctifying grace therefore enters into the moral order, not as an act that passes but as a permanent tendency which exists even when the subject who possesses it does not act; it is a turning towards God, conversio ad Deum. Consequently the privation of this grace, even without any other act, would be a stain, a moral deformity, a turning away from God, aversio a Deo, and this character is not found in any other effect of the fault of Adam. This privation, therefore, is the hereditary stain.

 

[Joe_5859]

First post (and sorry if this is in the wrong place…)

I am trying to understand the doctrine of original sin as a muslim. Below I have posted my thoughts on the matter and I would appreciate a Catholic response to my thoughts to put things into perspective for me:

"It is misleading to make the claim that we inherit a ‘sinful nature’ from Adam. ‘Sinful nature’ is a very Christian term which refers back to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, a doctrine which is rejected in Islam. It would perhaps be more fair to say we inherit ‘human nature’. Human nature in its entirety and the way human nature has always been. Human beings, by nature are not perfect and cannot act perfectly; only almighty Allah is perfect and only Allah can act perfectly. It is preposterous to claim that God created and expected (or ever expected) human beings to be 100% obedient and always act perfectly (I’m not proposing an excuse to intentionally sin; God wishes us to keep his commandments and act well). Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect. In order that we do not become lost, God provides us guidance in this matter. God wishes us to recognize this imperfectness within us (thereby recognizing his superiority), ask forgiveness for our misdeeds and have complete faith in his mercy.

No original sin that needs to be atoned for by a blood sacrifice. All persons are born clean, innocent and pure. There is no spiritual affliction or illness that we are born with. To use catholic terminology, we are all born in a ‘state of grace’. "

Peace of Allah on you all

Welcome to CAF!

If you want to know the Catholic perspective on Original Sin, it is all laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The section on Original Sin is in paragraphs 396-409. In particular, it seems you might be interested in paragraphs 402-406, which talk of the consequences of Original Sin for humanity.

Rather than saying “Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect,” I would say that “Human beings sin because human beings make poor choices.”

To me, this is an important question to answer for those who don’t believe in Original Sin: If we were born clean, innocent, and pure, then when does the breakdown of perfection begin and why?

 

[noorez]

Rather than saying “Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect,” I would say that “Human beings sin because human beings make poor choices.”

I do agree with your second statement and would add it on to my previous statement.

If we were born clean, innocent, and pure, then when does the breakdown of perfection begin and why?

Perhaps we have different interpretations on this idea of ‘perfection’. As I stated above, I would only apply the concept of ‘perfection’ to Allah. Don’t get me wrong though, I do not wish to say that Allah created man evil; we were created to be the 'vicegerent’s of the earth. (not sure what other way I can word that ).

I would say that our innocence and purity is compromised when we choose to disobey God and give in to the temptations of Satan. Adam (P.B.U.H) and Eve were both created clean, innocent and pure (facing God so to speak)… but they lost that purity when they chose to disobey God’s commandments and listened to Satan instead thus turning their eyes away from God of their own choosing. So just as them, when we choose to disobey God and listen instead to ideas which turn us away from God, do we lose ‘state of grace’.

 

[R_C]

I recommend the reading of “Summa contra Gentiles” by Thomas Aquinas. Lots of great answers in very profound ways are found there.

I’d only say that God created everything good, and gave men what we call “sanctifying grace”, that is, the supernatural ability to do what only God could do, that is, do everything well.

However, just like we do today, every day, the first man and woman disobeyed God and did the opposite of good. In doing so, they lost the sanctifying grace.

Christianity holds that God did not abandon his children, but rather gave them temporary, auxiliating grace so that they may still do good. However, we believe that God himself came down in order to show men how to be good, and in doing so, in perfect obedience to His own teachings, he re-gained sanctifying grace for all men. If instead we were all born in a state of grace, then there would be no hatred, no evil, no sinfulness in the world. And even if we were born in a state of grace and admit that we could lose it by offending God, could we, wretched mortals, ever atone by ourselves an offense to the living God? Do we not deserve immediate destruction for having offended He who is alone Holy? This is why we believe God himself came down here: out of mercy, He himself fulfilled His own justice, like a brother who pays the penance that his brother could never pay.

God indeed expected all men to act perfectly and be 100% obedient. This is what we believe Christ the man did: he showed us how to do this, and not only that: he also showed us that…it is not hard at all! All it takes to act perfectly is to love God with our whole heart and everyone as much as ourselves, forgiving all offences as many times as we want God to forgive us.

Indeed human beings are not perfect. This is why we need that special help from God, which we call sanctifying grace. One of its fruits is, indeed, recognition of our imperfection and of our supreme need for Him, for his forgiveness, and for his mercy, trusting in him. This, however, is manifested by our behavior towards others. Towards our loved ones, but especially towards those whom we dislike, and even who we call enemies.

Truly, it is not hard. Think about the people you meet, and ask yourself: do I love them like I love my brother, or my father? If I do this, then I will act the way God acts, treating all as if each of us were his only son.

Yes, I will tell you of things that are entirely new, things you never heard of before. Indeed, I knew that you would act very deceitfully, and they would call you a rebel from birth. Yet for my own sake and for the honor of my name, I will hold back my anger and not wipe you out. I am, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

It was not a messenger or an angel, but he himself who saved them. Because of his love and pity he redeemed them himself, Lifting them and carrying them

The Lord said: They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great. And they shall say to him: What are these wounds in the midst of thy hands? And he shall say: With these I was wounded in the house of them that loved me. On that day a fountain will be opened …] to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

 

[grannymh]

Welcome to CAF!

If you want to know the Catholic perspective on Original Sin, it is all laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The section on Original Sin is in paragraphs 396-409. In particular, it seems you might be interested in paragraphs 402-406, which talk of the consequences of Original Sin for humanity.

Rather than saying “Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect,” I would say that “Human beings sin because human beings make poor choices.”

To me, this is an important question to answer for those who don’t believe in Original Sin: If we were born clean, innocent, and pure, then when does the breakdown of perfection begin and why?

In order to understand Original Sin, one needs to understand the nature of Adam. Therefore, when reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, one may not skip the essential information about Original Sin which actually begins with paragraph 355 and continues through paragraph 421.

 

[Joe_5859]

In order to understand Original Sin, one needs to understand the nature of Adam. Therefore, when reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, one may not skip the essential information about Original Sin which actually begins with paragraph 355 and continues through paragraph 421.

Certainly. I didn’t want to overwhelm the OP with too large a chunk at one time. Looking at the whole context is going to yield more understanding.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Adam and Eve were not perfect in the sense that they were from the beginning complete and self-sufficient and nothing could be added to them to make them better. Indeed God is the only perfect being in this sense.

Adam and Eve were perfect in the sense that you (incorrectly, as it turns out) attribute to newborn babies. From the first moment of their ensoulment they were united in supernatural grace with God, and of course they were personally sinless.

Now, babies are still conceived and born in personal moral innocence. It is a common misunderstanding of Original Sin to think that it is the personal guit of Adam and Eve that is transmitted to their descendants. It is not.

The transmission of Original Sin, or whatever the word is, is really a negative thing rather than a positive thing. That is, something, or a collection of things, are not passed down to us from our first parents that otherwise would have been.

The most important of these, the one that really defines Original Sin, is supernatural grace. We are conceived and born as simple natural creatures, without having been given the grace of habitual holiness we call sanctifying grace and without having been supernaturally brought into the inner life of God through what we call divine indwelling. It was not my impression that Muslims believe in these kinds of grace in the first place (especially divine indwelling, which is intimately connected to the doctrine of the Trinity), but it is possible this is only my ignorance.

Connected to this, we also lack the preternatural gifts which supplemented, so to speak, plain old human nature for our first parents. These gifts included exceptions to disease, aging, and biological death that our bodies are otherwise susceptible to like those of any other animals. They also included a mental/spiritual integrity whereby the will had perfect mastery over the lower passions, for both intellect and will were stronger than they are in fallen man and the lower passions did not rebell against them or tend towards disordered desires.

Your intuition that human beings, just because we are human, tend to fall into sin has some validity, but it is based your experience of your own self and others who lack these original preternatural gifts. In the presence of these gifts sin was still possible of course since the will was still free, but it was not practically inevitable as it is for us today.

 

[1roman]

First post (and sorry if this is in the wrong place…)

I am trying to understand the doctrine of original sin as a muslim. Below I have posted my thoughts on the matter and I would appreciate a Catholic response to my thoughts to put things into perspective for me:

"It is misleading to make the claim that we inherit a ‘sinful nature’ from Adam. ‘Sinful nature’ is a very Christian term which refers back to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, a doctrine which is rejected in Islam. It would perhaps be more fair to say we inherit ‘human nature’. Human nature in its entirety and the way human nature has always been. Human beings, by nature are not perfect and cannot act perfectly; only almighty Allah is perfect and only Allah can act perfectly. It is preposterous to claim that God created and expected (or ever expected) human beings to be 100% obedient and always act perfectly (I’m not proposing an excuse to intentionally sin; God wishes us to keep his commandments and act well). Human beings sin because human beings are not perfect. In order that we do not become lost, God provides us guidance in this matter. God wishes us to recognize this imperfectness within us (thereby recognizing his superiority), ask forgiveness for our misdeeds and have complete faith in his mercy.

No original sin that needs to be atoned for by a blood sacrifice. All persons are born clean, innocent and pure. There is no spiritual affliction or illness that we are born with. To use catholic terminology, we are all born in a ‘state of grace’. "

Peace of Allah on you all

thanks-- but you will not understand it–

because you do not even realize that

Allah is a different God than YAWAH–

they are not the same

glad to clear that up–

 

[Aelred_Minor]

thanks-- but you will not understand it–

because you do not even realize that

Allah is a different God than YAWAH–

they are not the same

glad to clear that up–

I’m guessing that by “YAWAH” you mean the tetragrammaton, “YHWH”, commonly interpreted as “Yahweh” and replaced in most English translations of the Bible with “the LORD” (or “GOD” if the actual title “Lord” is used before the tetragrammaton).

The ordinary Catholic position is that Muslims believe in the same God as we do but hold grave errors regarding Him. But let’s not divert the discussion to that old argument.

 

[grannymh]

Certainly. I didn’t want to overwhelm the OP with too large a chunk at one time. Looking at the whole context is going to yield more understanding.

What I am trying to do is to follow the squence of thoughts from the OP.

The OP begins with –
“It is misleading to make the claim that we inherit a ‘sinful nature’ from Adam. ‘Sinful nature’ is a very Christian term which refers back to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, a doctrine which is rejected in Islam. It would perhaps be more fair to say we inherit ‘human nature’. Human nature in its entirety and the way human nature has always been.”

I put in bold one of the references to human nature.

Thus, I would begin the dialog by learning the Muslim definition or explanation for human nature, itself. The Catechism’s paragraph 355 is the proper Catholic explanation of basic human nature. Logically, we need to understand Adam’s nature as a creature compared to that of his Creator before we can talk about the significance of Adam’s freely chosen actions before the Fall. Then, we can understand the significance of the freely chosen action to commit the Original Sin.

Link to paragraph 355. scborromeo.org/ccc/para/355.htm

Link to Catechism. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[Brendan_64]

No original sin that needs to be atoned for by a blood sacrifice. All persons are born clean, innocent and pure. There is no spiritual affliction or illness that we are born with. To use catholic terminology, we are all born in a ‘state of grace’. "

Peace of Allah on you all

Welcome Noorez,

I’m no theologian, but here’s my take on the matter, for what it’s worth.

Sin is separation from God. If, as you say, man is born pure and in a state of grace, then how is it that human beings, are at the same time born imperfect and that this imperfect nature causes us to sin and turn away from God? If our very nature causes us to sin and separate ourselves from God, then our very nature must be sinful. Thus we are born as sinners in need of redemption.

Best wishes and may the one God of Abraham guide us all.

 

[Brendan_64]

thanks-- but you will not understand it–

because you do not even realize that

Allah is a different God than YAWAH–

they are not the same

glad to clear that up–

Regardless of what name is used, there is but one God, the God of Abraham.

Muslims, Christians and Jews worship the same God.

 

[grannymh]

Welcome Noorez,

I’m no theologian, but here’s my take on the matter, for what it’s worth.

Sin is separation from God. If, as you say, man is born pure and in a state of grace, then how is it that human beings, are at the same time born imperfect and that this imperfect nature causes us to sin and turn away from God? If our very nature causes us to sin and separate ourselves from God, then our very nature must be sinful. Thus we are born as sinners in need of redemption.

Best wishes and may the one God of Abraham guide us all.

Yes, sin is a separation from God…The Original Sin is essentially different.

Original Sin shattered the relationship between the Creator and the first human in whom is the whole human race “as one body of one man.” (Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, *DeMalo *4,1; Catechism paragraph 404) This relationship is not one of equals.

 

[PJM]

noorez

Trying to understand Original Sin

I am trying to understand the doctrine of original sin as a muslim. Below I have posted my thoughts on the matter and I would appreciate a Catholic response to my thoughts to put things into perspective for me:

"It is misleading to make the claim that we inherit a ‘sinful nature’ from Adam. ‘Sinful nature’ is a very Christian term which refers back to the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’, a doctrine which is rejected in Islam.

Allow me my friend to TRY to explain it to you.

1. God in an absolute sense did not have to create “man” at all
2. God Created the Entire Universe only so that man could; if man choose too; know god exist.
3. When God choose not only to Create man; but to “Create man in His OWN Image” Gen. 1:26-27 a number of had to be consequences followed this decision “naturally.”
4. Of the BILLIONS of Created things ONLY man can rationalize; can make new complex new things out of existing things, can choose to love and or to hate.
5. Each of these requires a mind; intellect; and a freewill which are attached to the human Soul [the animator of life] AND each of these things like God Himself are Spiritual realities and Eternal. Try to quantify your freewill for example: size; weight; color and shape.
6. To try to understand “Original Sin” and its consequences we must know a bit about God’s Own Nature and the nature of “sin” itself.
7. A simple description of God will suffice: ‘God is every good thing perfected”
8. Sin is Far more than just saying “NO!” to God’s Will. It is an ATTACK on God’s very Good and essentially Good Nature.
9. Are “justice and fairness” good things? OF COURSE they are so God MUST [emphasis not shouting] be Just and Fair.
10. In choosing to Create Adam and Eve [even after have Created the Angels; some of whom tries to usurp His Godly nature [Satan]; God understood that he was doing so with a risk. Adam and Eve were Created “perfectly”; and were placed in a “perfect” environment. With NO need’s and the only possible “want” was to also like Satan; become GOD’S! That helps one understand the seriousness of their freewill choice. When Satan did it God condemned him to a Eternal life of misery and want. Now God for reasons ONLY God can know; chooses to give man a further chance. But Gods “Just and Fair” Devine Nature HAD TOO do so at an enormously large penalty.

So parts of the penalty were: heavenly access [the Beatific Vision] was no longer possible. In a sense; heaven was locked out. Death both physical and Spiritual [for the 2 natures of man] became realities. Sickness; and all forms of evil resulted and were given free-birth. Pain and suffering were now normal. Spiritual death by virtue of “our first parents” too, Had To Occur.

1. Here’s where it get difficult to comprehend. Because God is “All Good Perfected”; God could, and even HAD to impose these severe penalties. BUT it rebelled against the very Divine Nature of God’s Goodness. So God “Had too” in order to appease His Own Good Nature have a plan that would conditionally permit man to regain his original state of “perfection.” Thus the Messiah; Jesus Christ ect.

It would perhaps be more fair to say we inherit ‘human nature’. Human nature in its entirety and the way human nature has always been.

No my friend. God’s intent was a somewhat “mirror image” of Himself. A sort of limited perfection. Perfect but not as powerful as God Himself. God’s choice was not to have man sin. BUT because he is “Perfect Love” and must have “perfect love” returned; and in order for love to be perfected in must be freely bestowed; “Had Too” give man the gifts AND the opportunity to freely choose to love or to hate Him. Only that could produce “perfect love.”

Human beings, by nature are not perfect and cannot act perfectly; only almighty Allah is perfect and only Allah can act perfectly?

Again no. Man’s Soul can now; WITH GOD”S help [grace] actually become perfect. And Thanks to the Incarnation; Passion and Death of Christ: the “condemned Souls” could be redeemed through, in the OT, circumcision; and in the NT, the Sacrament of Baptism [Jn.3:5; Mt. 28;19-20]. Man himself can with God’s help; grace and the Sacraments and discipline with self-sacrifice actually gain control over our sin-inclined [but not forced!] nature.

It is preposterous to claim that God created and expected (or ever expected) human beings to be 100% obedient and always act perfectly (I’m not proposing an excuse to intentionally sin; God wishes us to keep his commandments and act well

NOTHING Good is IMPOSSIBLE for God. Difficult? Indeed! IMPOSSIBLE? No.

No original sin that needs to be atoned for by a blood sacrifice. All persons are born clean, innocent and pure. There is no spiritual affliction or illness that we are born with. To use catholic terminology, we are all born in a ‘state of grace’“

The FORUM limits space and I’m running out of it. But NO again. The Circumcision
Was the “blood sacrifice in the OT; Christ death in the NT, now satisfies the Blood offering for All of us conditionally.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[noorez]

Wow… a lot of response. Much too much to respond to so I’ll pick out the ones I felt I somewhat needed to:

Sin is separation from God. If, as you say, man is born pure and in a state of grace, then how is it that human beings, are at the same time born imperfect and that this imperfect nature causes us to sin and turn away from God? If our very nature causes us to sin and separate ourselves from God, then our very nature must be sinful. Thus we are born as sinners in need of redemption.

Perhaps I might use a different term then ‘state of grace’ (which I only used to try and open dialog). If I’m not mistaken, the correct term to use for the state of a new child is “Fitra”. As per wikipedia:

According to Islamic theology, human beings are born with an innate inclination of tawhid (Oneness), which is encapsulated in the fitra along with compassion, intelligence, ihsan and all other attributes that embody what it is to be human. It is for this reason that some Muslims prefer to refer to those who embrace Islam as reverts rather than converts, as it is believed they are returning to a perceived pure state.

I acknowledge that my intellect and my free will is not perfect so I cannot always choose perfectly. These bad choices are sins (actions which are ‘unlawful’ or breaking of God’s commandments). The statement “If our very nature causes us to sin…”, suggests that there is some ‘terrible evilness’ in us that makes us utterly incapable of preventing ourselves from sinning which Islam is somewhat against. We are capable of not sinning but this is an extremely difficult thing for us to do. (In fact, Islamic theology teaches us that our prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) was sinless. As Jesus is only a man in Islam, this could be considered an incredible feat and demonstration that it is possible to not sin.) God as our creator understands this and so (as I stated previously) only requires us to repent with honest intentions to not return to sin and we are forgiven. I reject the idea that we have ‘a nature to sin’ like a cat has ‘a nature to meow’. Instead, my intellect is taught to make impure choices and by my free will, I choose to make that choice.

Islam teaches that albiet Adam’s (and therefore our) ‘loss of residence’ in the paradise, man did not become ‘inherently evil’. Our ability to act righteously is not as severely compromised as it might be suggested in christianity. So long as we remain resilient and aware of satan’s temptations in this world we can remain spiritually successful. Adam and Eve failed to remember God’s warning about the enemy which is Satan and we must remember their failure.

Unfortunately in our world today, there is evil everywhere. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in to a family to teach children to live morally and thus they are pulled from the right path (for some perhaps only slightly and for others completely facing the other direction!) The influence of this immorality has deeply rooted itself in our society and immorality has become part of human life. People prefer to satisfy only the desires of their flesh and neglect their souls. I call these gifts of Satan. However, gifts of God can satisfy both the flesh and the soul. When taking care of both the flesh and soul then we are truly healthy.

I’ll admit that their is a great deal of ‘overlap’ in our understandings of our current living conditions.

As a final note I must make something clear. I do not wish to say that just because Islam teaches that the basic human nature is not corrupted as christianity might teach, we are still dependent upon God. In the Quran, God continually reminds us to not forget the fact that we are reliant upon him for all things. Without God’s continual support I would be lost and would without doubt succumb to the temptations of Satan. He is a much too powerful enemy for me to fight alone. I just do not accept the fact that there is something innately wrong with a man that hinders him from coming to God; A man may still very well be arrogant in his own beliefs and stubbornly refuse to hear truth as many are.

Phew!

 

[grannymh]

Wow… a lot of response. Much too much to respond to so I’ll pick out the ones I felt I somewhat needed to:

Perhaps I might use a different term then ‘state of grace’ (which I only used to try and open dialog). If I’m not mistaken, the correct term to use for the state of a new child is “Fitra”. As per wikipedia:

I acknowledge that my intellect and my free will is not perfect so I cannot always choose perfectly. These bad choices are sins (actions which are ‘unlawful’ or breaking of God’s commandments). The statement “If our very nature causes us to sin…”, suggests that there is some ‘terrible evilness’ in us that makes us utterly incapable of preventing ourselves from sinning which Islam is somewhat against. We are capable of not sinning but this an extremely difficult thing for us to do. (In fact, Islamic theology teaches us that our prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) was sinless. As Jesus is only a man in Islam, this could be considered an incredible feat and demonstration that it is possible to not sin.) God as our creator understands this and so (as I stated previously) only requires us to repent with honest intentions to not return to sin and we are forgiven. I reject the idea that we have ‘a nature to sin’ like a cat has ‘a nature to meow’. Instead, my intellect is taught to make impure choices and by my free will, I choose to make that choice.

Islam teaches that albiet Adam’s (and therefore our) ‘loss of residence’ in the paradise, man did not become ‘inherently evil’. Our ability to act righteously is not as severely compromised as it might be suggested in christianity. So long as we remain resilient and aware of satan’s temptations in this word we can remain spiritually successful. Adam and Eve failed to remember God’s warning about the enemy which is Satan and we must remember their failure.

Unfortunately in our world today, there is evil everywhere. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in to a family to teach children to live morally and thus they are pulled from the right path (for some perhaps only slightly and for others completely facing the other direction!) The influence of this immorality has deeply rooted itself in our society and immorality has become part of human life. People prefer to satisfy only the desires of their flesh and neglect their souls. I call these gifts of Satan. However, gifts of God can satisfy both the flesh and the soul. When taking care of both the flesh and soul then we are truly healthy.

I’ll admit that their is a great deal of ‘overlap’ in our understandings of our current living conditions.

As a final note I must make something clear. I do not wish to say that just because Islam teaches that the basic human nature is not corrupted as christianity might teach, we are still dependent upon God. In the Quran, God continually reminds us to not forget the fact that we are reliant upon him for all things. Without God’s continual support I would be lost and would without doubt succumb to the temptations of Satan. He is a much too powerful enemy for me to fight alone. I just do not accept the fact that there is something innately wrong with a man that hinders him from coming to God; A man may still very well be arrogant in his own beliefs and stubbornly refuse to hear truth as many are.

Phew!

One tiny comment. Catholicism differs from some of the other Christian religions in that Catholicism teaches that a human has a wounded nature which is very different from a corrupted nature. Catholicism is also different from other Christian religions in that it has seven sacraments which help a person reach the goal of joy eternal with God. The fact that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist is the supreme difference.

 

[noorez]

Perhaps this is somewhat off topic…

Some more esoteric interpretations of Islam suggest that the removal or sending down from the ‘garden paradise’ should not be thought of in terms of punishment entirely. Rather, we were sent down from the garden paradise to a lower place for a while so that at the end we may be exalted and raised to a level much higher than what is beyond human comprehension. So if this is God’s true purpose, why does he allow the feeling of loss and disconnectedness from him to persist? Our raising up requires something on our part. A deep yearning and love for the divine. This yearning is facilitated by the feeling of loss for those who do not become ‘lost’ in this loss. The more we yearn for God the closer we get to him, even though for a long time we may not experience it.

Perhaps we can think of the Adam/Eve incident as a lesson rather then a test. We must not become arrogant for we will fall prey to Satan in this lower world and arrogance before God would certainly be detrimental to our rising up. A rising up which only almighty Allah can bestow upon us in his everlasting love and mercy.

The peace of Allah be upon you always! May he grant us the forgiveness of our trespasses and shortcomings.

 

[fhansen]

Wow… a lot of response. Much too much to respond to so I’ll pick out the ones I felt I somewhat needed to:

Perhaps I might use a different term then ‘state of grace’ (which I only used to try and open dialog). If I’m not mistaken, the correct term to use for the state of a new child is “Fitra”. As per wikipedia:

I acknowledge that my intellect and my free will is not perfect so I cannot always choose perfectly. These bad choices are sins (actions which are ‘unlawful’ or breaking of God’s commandments). The statement “If our very nature causes us to sin…”, suggests that there is some ‘terrible evilness’ in us that makes us utterly incapable of preventing ourselves from sinning which Islam is somewhat against. We are capable of not sinning but this is an extremely difficult thing for us to do. (In fact, Islamic theology teaches us that our prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) was sinless. As Jesus is only a man in Islam, this could be considered an incredible feat and demonstration that it is possible to not sin.) God as our creator understands this and so (as I stated previously) only requires us to repent with honest intentions to not return to sin and we are forgiven. I reject the idea that we have ‘a nature to sin’ like a cat has ‘a nature to meow’. Instead, my intellect is taught to make impure choices and by my free will, I choose to make that choice.

Islam teaches that albiet Adam’s (and therefore our) ‘loss of residence’ in the paradise, man did not become ‘inherently evil’. Our ability to act righteously is not as severely compromised as it might be suggested in christianity. So long as we remain resilient and aware of satan’s temptations in this world we can remain spiritually successful. Adam and Eve failed to remember God’s warning about the enemy which is Satan and we must remember their failure.

As granny mentioned, there are differences between the Catholic understanding of OS and that of many non-Catholic Christian faiths. In Catholicism human nature wasn’t corrupted by disobedience of God, rather it simply lost what it had, and what it was intended to have. Man became what he is when he lacks the help (grace) of God that is an intricate part of being in communion with Him. Human nature is still good-the idea of man now assuming a new nature, a “sin nature”, is a misunderstanding, mainly within some Protestant circles, regarding the change that took place in man. The truth is that man is now simply left to his own devices, spiritually dead because he’s spiritually separated from God, the source of his life. So man still retains the “perfection” proper to human nature due to the goodness in which it is made, but he lacks control over that nature, and is therefore more or less wide-open to temptation to sin.

 

[Reuben_J]

Wow… a lot of response. Much too much to respond to so I’ll pick out the ones I felt I somewhat needed to:

Hi. Welcome to the Forum. You will encounter lots of Catholics here and others too. Original sin is exclusively Catholic belief which is often misunderstood. You have come to a right place here to discuss this topic. There are some very informative posts earlier on which you can take note. The suggestion to look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is perhaps the best for you to get a very accurate statement and definition of the subject as it is the official teaching of the Church. Yes, unfortunately it is rather big for a first timer but if you have the time you may like to go through it.

Unfortunately in our world today, there is evil everywhere. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be born in to a family to teach children to live morally and thus they are pulled from the right path (for some perhaps only slightly and for others completely facing the other direction!) The influence of this immorality has deeply rooted itself in our society and immorality has become part of human life. People prefer to satisfy only the desires of their flesh and neglect their souls. I call these gifts of Satan. However, gifts of God can satisfy both the flesh and the soul. When taking care of both the flesh and soul then we are truly healthy.

You have made a realistic observation of the state of the ‘world today’. I would agree with you there. In the context of this topic, you are probably seeing a symptomatic effect as a result of the root cause. Christianity sees this from the beginning where the original cause is noted and which we have to address today. This is what we call the fallen world as a result of the fall – when Adam committed a sin of disobedience against God. Since then it has never been the same again. An earlier poster mentioned about the privation of sanctifying grace and that has much to do with what you observe today.

The world today is not what it was during the time of creation. Adam (and Eve) did have that child-like innocent and lived in an ideal world in the paradise of Eden where there is no death, sickness or pain. That was what God wanted to give to his creations especially man whom he had given to be the masters of all else that he created. Alas this was not to be after the fall and that is what we have today. It is because of God’s love that he gave all good things but he also allows free-will. Adam did not make good use of that.

So there is a cut-off point where the ideal situation of man in paradise ceased and the real world today began. I like the explanation of the lack of sanctifying grace that causes man to be like what he is. Perhaps that is one way to understand Original Sin easier.

Phew!

Thanks.

Peace.