TSA pat-downs

[Mimi20]

My question for you all is - what goes through your mind when you see someone like me get pat down?

I tend to think, Glad it’s not me… Seriously though, I tend to feel sympathy for the people having to get pat down.
I would rather the body scanner than a pat down, but If I had to fly frequently I wouldn’t be thrilled with the constant shot of radiation either. So possibly in that instance I would opt for a pat down then.
The most ‘extreme search’ I’ve had was when I was very young, and I had to stand to the side with my arms stretched out while a lady went over/around me with a metal detector thing. All because of the button on my jeans I was wearing at the time… It kept setting off the regular metal detector you have to walk through.
Now I’m not scarred for life by any means, but when you’re a child that is not the most fun thing to have gone through.
Last flight I took, lucky me, I was randomly selected by a beep after walking through the regular scanner. They had to take a swab from my shoes that’s it, but I had to think, If you’re just doing that by random selection I’m not feeling any safer.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I don’t mind body scanners and don’t get the problem. We all have a body, something we don’t often appreciate enough. If someone seeing just below the skin of mine somehow makes travelling safer, fine, provided it’s done in a fair manner among everybody.

If there is a choice, I’d rather their eyes on my image than hands on me.

But I still have to wonder. Ships are just as vulnerable as planes (it’s a floating metal box in the ocean with thousands of people in it, who may die if it goes down), yet Government has never seen fit to search those boarding them. What has really changed, except maybe now we are more afraid?

If the country of Israel can maintain a better level of security, without treating everybody like a criminal, why can’t we?

ICXC NIKA

The ship cannot be aimed at skyscrapers and used as a flying missile. What could have happened on 9/11/2001 was much, MUCH worse than what did happen, although that was horrendous enough. But if the planes had struck later in the day, and closer to the middle, or lower portion, of the buildings, the death count could have been 30,000 to 40,000 instead of 3,000. That’s the result the terrorists were going for.

Yes, we were afraid. Yes, the President reacted and created a bureaucracy that now has a life of its own. Yes, it’s going to be hard to dismantle. No, it doesn’t really protect us. Yes, it’s a kabuki show of “safety” in the air.

We are afraid to profile the people who are actually most likely to be terrorists. Instead we terrorize our own citizens - elderly women wearing adult diapers; children who are molested after being taken away from their parents. Instead of Middle Eastern men, we will force our military to take off their shoes and dump out their water bottles.

It’s ridiculous.

 

[JustaServant]

The ship cannot be aimed at skyscrapers and used as a flying missile. What could have happened on 9/11/2001 was much, MUCH worse than what did happen, although that was horrendous enough. But if the planes had struck later in the day, and closer to the middle, or lower portion, of the buildings, the death count could have been 30,000 to 40,000 instead of 3,000. That’s the result the terrorists were going for.

Yes, we were afraid. Yes, the President reacted and created a bureaucracy that now has a life of its own. Yes, it’s going to be hard to dismantle. No, it doesn’t really protect us. Yes, it’s a kabuki show of “safety” in the air.

We are afraid to profile the people who are actually most likely to be terrorists. Instead we terrorize our own citizens - elderly women wearing adult diapers; children who are molested after being taken away from their parents. Instead of Middle Eastern men, we will force our military to take off their shoes and dump out their water bottles.

It’s ridiculous.

There were two very simple solutions to prevent future hijacks on airplanes.

1. Armed Federal Marshalls on airplaines.
2. Arm the pilots.
3. Secure cockpit doors so no one, NO ONE can enter them.
   Have these things been done? I don’t know. We’re too busy with our hands in granny’s undies to make sure there’s no bomb.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

There were two very simple solutions to prevent future hijacks on airplanes.

1. Armed Federal Marshalls on airplaines.
2. Arm the pilots.
3. Secure cockpit doors so no one, NO ONE can enter them.
   Have these things been done? I don’t know. We’re too busy with our hands in granny’s undies to make sure there’s no bomb.

The cockpit doors have been secured. Not sure about the others. For at least some amount of time, there were Air Marshals on planes, but randomly.

Part of the problem is just the sheer size and mobility of our nation. Israel is a very tiny country with limited flights entering and exiting. But I can’t help but feel that the expenditure on the TSA would have been better spent on air marshals.

 

[austenbosten]

All I can say to those who say

“Well the body scanners are designed to protect us.”

Just remember that there were hundreds of regulations and numerous agencies in place to ensure safe air travel and prevent terrorist attacks on American soil. FAA, CIA, FBI, NSA, SAC…all failed us on 9/11.

What didn’t fail us, was the local governments and the people. The Air Force didn’t do anything to stop Flight 93 from taking out D.C. the brave people did.

Big Government does not work, if you want to keep deluding yourselves into thinking so, I have some bloated, floating corpses down in New Orleans you should have a chat with.

 

[tarboy]

How about you consider the logic that for some 80 years people could travel the air without being subject to an embarrassing and humiliating search. Even the terrorist hijackings in the 70s we didn’t budge our freedom. Yet one tragic event and we strip away every freedom and we allow the govt to wiretap our emails and phone calls, sexually molest us before we board, and now arrest us and hold us in detention indefinitely without due process…How about that logic…

What chaps my hiney about the whole thing is that screening is such a complete and utter failure!

• Statistically, it’s a failure to capture or prevent threats. Any regular business with a similar catastrophic quality problem would solve it another way.
• Financially, it’s expensive in $ to deliver and time wasted, customers pissed off.
• Politically, nobody gains. While it restricts our rights, there isn’t any real gain for the party in power. A dictator wouldn’t bother with it.

All TSA screening methods prove is the worst aspect of govt bureaucracy running amok, where nobody benefits. Even the ex-TSA chief agreed it was a waste, once he was away from the ‘machine’

“A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins.”
- Benjamin Franklin
.

While I love this quote, the second sentence is misleading. If being ‘well informed’ were the panacea, tyranny would not have risen repeatedly among nations of educated and religious people. Being informed only helps you identify a growing tyranny. Then you must take action and fight it (hence the 1st and 2nd Amendments remain important, for the US)

Remember there is also the Tyranny of the Majority

 

[jimmy]

Sure and if I don’t want be arrested, tortured and spend my life in prison without due process because of the NDAA…I should keep my mouth shut and not criticize the government.

I would not have a problem with it, if it was government airlines doing this, but it’s not. They are forcing private customers to go through government scanners to board private airlines…where’s the freedom?

BTW, since when did your desire for a false sense of security through erosion of our civil rights became more important than my desire to fly?

I am not concerned about terrorists taking down any planes I am on but I am not a fear longer who is gonna call the tsa the gestapo and obama Hitler. Your just as much of a fear Mongerrer as any politician who uses fear to support his policies.

We could say the same about car insurance. It is the law that you have to get insurance even if you idea of freedom says it is wrong. Either you buy insurance or you don’t drive.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

How about you consider the logic that for some 80 years people could travel the air without being subject to an embarrassing and humiliating search. Even the terrorist hijackings in the 70s we didn’t budge our freedom. Yet one tragic event and we strip away every freedom and we allow the govt to wiretap our emails and phone calls, sexually molest us before we board, and now arrest us and hold us in detention indefinitely without due process…How about that logic.

If you enjoy living as a slave, be my guest…but I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees. You think it’s going to stop with the airlines pal…look around the Church is the next target…I wonder how “okay” you will be with the “logic of government protection” when they start shutting down churches.

Me I’ll keep fighting the good and just fight. We have a Bible, a Constitution, and Founding Documents and I yield it for No Man.

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:1[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 5:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

and one of my favorites.

Huzzah!

If we are willing to enslave ourselves to the government for the false illusion of security, then I pray that God make me a warrior for Freedom, for I’d rather be a slave to God, than a slave to Caesar.

Where would forums be without TEA party enthusiasts? They can find justification for their bizarre beliefs, almost anywhere.

After the terror of 9-11. The United States made the very rational decision to get serious about public safety. TSA, is just a part of that decision. Yet, it seems to take an exceptional amount of criticism. As it is, they are trying to do a good job of keeping us safe. We should show them the respect they deserve.

ATB

(edited for non charitable content.)

 

[GEddie]

Actually, a dictator would find the TSA rubrics quite useful IMNAAHO, in making air travel such a pain in the neck that almost everybody stays put. Once that is again the norm, the permanent checkpoints and internal visas to go from state to state would go almost unnoticed, and no one would become tacked off until it was too late.

It is my NAAHO that the air-travel mess, the illegal-alien hysteria and the survival crowd are all being ginned up to keep everybody afraid while adjusting them to ever-increasing control and converting them into neo-peasants.

ICXC NIKA

 

[jimmy]

My question for you all is - what goes through your mind when you see someone like me get pat down? Do you think “Oh look! Free girl-on-girl porn!” or just a mental, normal-course-of-business mental shrug? I occasionally catch the eye of male passengers who seem to just give me a quick, sympathetic smile before going about their business.

)

When I am in line I don’t notice the pat downs really because I am thinkinng of my own stuff and the flight. I might notice an attractive woman but the patdown has never caused any dirty thoughts.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

All I can say to those who say

“Well the body scanners are designed to protect us.”

Just remember that there were hundreds of regulations and numerous agencies in place to ensure safe air travel and prevent terrorist attacks on American soil. FAA, CIA, FBI, NSA, SAC…all failed us on 9/11.

What didn’t fail us, was the local governments and the people. The Air Force didn’t do anything to stop Flight 93 from taking out D.C. the brave people did.

Big Government does not work, if you want to keep deluding yourselves into thinking so, I have some bloated, floating corpses down in New Orleans you should have a chat with.

I hope to gosh they aren’t STILL floating down there!

But I know exactly what you mean.

The TSA was a classic case of locking the barn door long after the horse had gotten out. The terrorists knew they’d never be able to pull that same tactic again, but they are looking for a new tactic. Meanwhile, we are all left with the stupidity of the TSA and the encroachment on our freedom. The airlines could have handled security much better - it is their business to keep us safe and flying, after all.

 

[austenbosten]

I am not concerned about terrorists taking down any planes I am on but I am not a fear longer who is gonna call the tsa the gestapo and obama Hitler. Your just as much of a fear Mongerrer as any politician who uses fear to support his policies.

We could say the same about car insurance. It is the law that you have to get insurance even if you idea of freedom says it is wrong. Either you buy insurance or you don’t drive.

Where did I call Obama, Hitler?

You’re just making stuff up. I’m a fear monger, how because I voice dissent…so now dissent is considered fear mongering?

What frightens me, is that you don’t even support the TSA for the false sense that your life will be protected…you just blindly support an agency that is practicing tyranny. Call me a fear monger, but I’d rather be that than someone who blindly supports tyranny over his fellow countryman.

 

[austenbosten]

While I love this quote, the second sentence is misleading. If being ‘well informed’ were the panacea, tyranny would not have risen repeatedly among nations of educated and religious people. Being informed only helps you identify a growing tyranny. Then you must take action and fight it (hence the 1st and 2nd Amendments remain important, for the US)

Remember there is also the Tyranny of the Majority

What Franklin is saying, is be well informed of civics. Most Americans are absolutely ignorant of them. Oh sure they brag about their “rights” but can they name any other Amendments to the Constitution besides the first two?

Can most Americans accurately define what our government is…nope because you still hear this stupid argument that America is a democracy…NO IT IS NOT! Democracy is for rubes and mobs…we are a Republic.

American’s think how wonderful welfare is…what did the Fathers say? No one seems to know, just trust in government and it will work out.

I disagree the American populace has been uninformed for a very long time.

 

[austenbosten]

Where would forums be without TEA party enthusiasts? They can find justification for their bizarre beliefs, almost anywhere.

After the terror of 9-11. The United States made the very rational decision to get serious about public safety. TSA, is just a part of that decision. Yet, it seems to take an exceptional amount of criticism. As it is, they are trying to do a good job of keeping us safe. We should show them the respect they deserve.

ATB

(edited for non charitable content.)

Haha yeah I’m bizzare, yet I have documents to back up my Tea party view. I have the Constitution.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
IV Amendment to the United States Constitution

Once again I have facts and Founding Documents to back up my claim, where’s yours?..your claim is no more substantive than wind passing through cheeks.

 

[jimmy]

Where did I call Obama, Hitler?

You’re just making stuff up. I’m a fear monger, how because I voice dissent…so now dissent is considered fear mongering?

What frightens me, is that you don’t even support the TSA for the false sense that your life will be protected…you just blindly support an agency that is practicing tyranny. Call me a fear monger, but I’d rather be that than someone who blindly supports tyranny over his fellow countryman.

It has nothing to do with voicing discent. You called the tsa workers the gestapo, the logical step is that obama is Hitler since he is the authority behind the tsa. They are simply doing their job, but you demonize them. How is it a stretch for you to demonize the man who actually weilds the authority behind them?

Everything is tyrrany if you insist on making a fuss about it. There are those who insist that it is tyrranical to pay school taxes. It should be private according to them. You are a fear longer because you use the same fear tactics as those you oppose. Everything is hyperbolic and taken to the extreme. The tsa are the gestapo is one example.

 

[SalesianSDB]

My question for you all is - what goes through your mind when you see someone like me get pat down?

As a libertarian I think, “There goes that person’s civil liberties.”

I often joke that next time I go through airport security and they ask for my ID I’m going to hand them a copy of the Fourth Amendment

 

[austenbosten]

It has nothing to do with voicing discent. You called the tsa workers the gestapo, the logical step is that obama is Hitler since he is the authority behind the tsa. They are simply doing their job, but you demonize them. How is it a stretch for you to demonize the man who actually weilds the authority behind them?

Everything is tyrrany if you insist on making a fuss about it. There are those who insist that it is tyrranical to pay school taxes. It should be private according to them. You are a fear longer because you use the same fear tactics as those you oppose. Everything is hyperbolic and taken to the extreme. The tsa are the gestapo is one example.

You do realize that when a government infringes upon civil liberties without any substantive claims (TSA screens don’t work, inefficient, and costly) then they are in fact fascist. Just cause I say they are like the Gestapo, doesn’t mean I think they are the gestapo…you’re too literal and your logic is fuzzy. If Obama is Hitler, what does that make Bush who created the TSA? Hitler? So there are two Hitlers?

Oh “they are doing their job” argument. So I guess we shouldn’t shun the SS prison guards…they were doing their jobs, or how about drug pushers or pimps…they’re doing a job too.

Just because I think think the TSA is tyranny doesn’t mean I think school taxes are. Quit changing the subject and using straw man arguments.

Instead of throwing up straw man arguments, prove to me why we need TSA screeners and pat-down searches. Israel has a better and more effective means of dealing with safe air travel without infringing on liberties. How about you prove to me why we need to subject every person to either to a bodyscan that does not work, or an invasive pat-down towards nuns and kids in wheelchairs.

 

[JustaServant]

It has nothing to do with voicing discent. You called the tsa workers the gestapo, the logical step is that obama is Hitler since he is the authority behind the tsa. They are simply doing their job, but you demonize them. How is it a stretch for you to demonize the man who actually weilds the authority behind them?

Everything is tyrrany if you insist on making a fuss about it. There are those who insist that it is tyrranical to pay school taxes. It should be private according to them. You are a fear longer because you use the same fear tactics as those you oppose. Everything is hyperbolic and taken to the extreme. The tsa are the gestapo is one example.

It was ME who compared the TSA to the Gestapo. And I stand by the comparison.
If people cannot see the tyranny around them, the TSA, the “Patriot Act”, the NDAA, survailence on the American people, predetor drones killing people in third world countries who live in mud huts…then I truly feel sorry for them.
I remember an America far different than we have today. And I pray our children will once again see it.

 

[Catholic80]

I believe there is nothing wrong with another human touching another human, even if they are strangers, so long as both have good moral intentions, and are doing it for the right reason.

For example, an emergency doctor, who may be a complete stranger, might have to see someone totally naked and touch them quite a bit. There is nothing wrong with that.

We are living in a world where violence is a true threat in air travel. I’ve had the pat down before, and have never thought anything of it. If I felt I was in danger of having an immoral fantasy, then I would opt for the radiation or alternative scans.

Hopefully, the other person is not having immoral thoughts, but we cannot control another person’s thoughts. And really, they are checking hundreds of persons a day, and it only takes a few seconds per person. It probably gets really boring after a while, and their thoughts are probably on dinner and when they can go home.

 

[austenbosten]

I believe there is nothing wrong with another human touching another human, even if they are strangers, so long as both have good moral intentions, and are doing it for the right reason.

For example, an emergency doctor, who may be a complete stranger, might have to see someone totally naked and touch them quite a bit. There is nothing wrong with that.

We are living in a world where violence is a true threat in air travel. I’ve had the pat down before, and have never thought anything of it. If I felt I was in danger of having an immoral fantasy, then I would opt for the radiation or alternative scans.

Hopefully, the other person is not having immoral thoughts, but we cannot control another person’s thoughts. And really, they are checking hundreds of persons a day, and it only takes a few seconds per person. It probably gets really boring after a while, and their thoughts are probably on dinner and when they can go home.

But you have a higher chance dying by a flock of geese hitting the engine, than Alli-baba hijacking the plane to commit jihad…I can understand emergency doctors, I can understand a police officer if I was intoxicated, belligerent and attacking others, but to do an invasive search for a 1 in 250,000,000 chance?

There comes a point when less is more. I don’t want my government protecting my flights by making me feel like a criminal and puttin their hands on my body. I don’t want them telling me what size drink I can only buy. I don’t want them telling me I can’t wear my crucifix…I don’t want them doing all this stuff to “protect” me. Just keep courts of law, law enforcement, defend the borders, and the nation. Leave me be!