Tsar Nicholas II

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futureKC123

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Shouldbwe ask for intercession? Why was he canonized by the Russian Church?
Thanks,
FKC
 
futureKC123 said:
Shouldbwe ask for intercession? Why was he canonized by the Russian Church?
Thanks,
FKC
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Because the Bolsheviks (partly) killed him for his Orthodox faith. He is however no recognised saint in the Catholic Church. Only the pre-unia saints are recognised as far as I know. I wonder if St. Severus of Antioch is a recognised saint in the Roman communion since the Syriac and Coptic Catholic churches were united to Rome.
 
There is many Eastern Catholics who venerate Orthodox Saints. There is a Ruthenian parish close to where I live that has an icon of Herman of Alaska. I personally can not venerate these people but I don’t have any problem with those who do.
 
Hi futureKC123,

Yes, Tsar Nicholas II and his family are recognized as saints in the Russian Orthodox Church. If memory serves, Tsar Nicholas II and his family were designated as martyrs by the ROCOR. Later, (I think 15-20ish years ago) the ROC canonized them but designated them as passion-bearers.

As CatholicLife says, many Catholics venerate Orthodox saints, including post-schism ones. I for one am somewhat drawn to St. Nektarios (I’m new to Eastern Christianity, so i don’t want to overstate things :D). If you don’t mind my asking, what has drawn you to Tsar Nicholas II?

AzzurriFan
 
Well I have an icon of him and don’t really know if it belongs in my icon corner or not. I’m mt quite sure how I feel about praying to nonCatholic Saints.
Opinions?
Thanks,
FKC
 
Saints are saints, IMO. I’m not sure if the Orthodox Church I attend for Vespers is named after the very St. Nicholas in question, but I don’t have qualms about venerating the icons within the church. It was also interesting knowing the Vesper I went to the Saturday, before the Divine Liturgy at the Ruthenian parish, celebrated St. Porcopius (sp?). The day after, he was celebrated in the Divine Liturgy at the Ruthenian Catholic parish. So, I see no problems venerating Eastern Orthodox/Catholic saints.

Even now, I’m looking to the likes of Theophan the Recluse, and St. Seraphim of Sarov in deepening my practice of the Eastern Rite/Theological POV.
 
futureKC123 said:
Well I have an icon of him and don’t really know if it belongs in my icon corner or not. I’m mt quite sure how I feel about praying to nonCatholic Saints.
Opinions?
Thanks,
FKC
Click to expand...
A saint is someone the Church designates as to have been revealed to be in Heaven. That saint has the ability to intercede for us and ask God for His mercy and assistance. As long as the Catholic Church, or any other true, apostolic Church, recognizes the person as a saint, you can trust that person is, indeed, a saint. If the Church has reason to declare that an individual is now in Heaven and can intercede for us, why not take advantage of the help? A saint is a saint, no matter what side of God’s Church they were a member of here on Earth. Saint Nicholas II, Saint John the Wonder-worker, Blessed John Paul II, Blessed Mother Teresa (I know JP2 and MT aren’t “saints” yet, but they do have miracles attributed to their intercession so I have included them here), Saint Damien of Molokai…all of these and more are saints and can help us. Don’t be afraid to ask. My personal icon corner has Saint John the Wonder-worker, Saint Innocent of Alaska, and Saint Seraphim of Sarov…but I’m not Orthodox. :crossrc: Saint Tsar Nicholas II, intercede for us and ask God’s mercy and blessing on us all. :highprayer:

Just my two cents…
 
Wrt Tsar Nicholas II, I am one hundred percent confident that the man did exist, he was who he was purported to be, and he is NOT some amalgam of several different people that are entwined with a considerable amount of myth.

I’m confident in saying that the man who you understand to be Tsar Nicholas II is in fact Tsar Nicholas II, and the details we have of his life and death are true. I hope that you have this confidence as well.

More on topic, though. If prayer to saints is really just about asking dead people to intercede for you the way living people intercede for you, let me ask you this. Would you have any kind of problem with having a Russian Orthodox Christian of the church militant pray for you, even if that person is not a saint? And would you be reluctant to pray for a Russian Orthodox Christian?

Or is there something I’m missing here? Is western sainthood something that grants intercessory ability to a tiny select few among the church triumphant, in fact so few that the ability escapes all Orthodox Christians post-Schism. Or perhaps there really is more to what you’re doing than asking someone to pray for you?
 
Everyone in heaven is a saint, even if not canonized. And saints are not dead, they´re more alive than we are.
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Everyone in heaven is a saint, even if not canonized. And saints are not dead, they´re more alive than we are.
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“Saint” and “alive” and “dead” are all words that have a variety of meanings depending on exactly how you’re using them. Let’s not conflate those meanings. When I say Tsar Nicholas II is dead, I’m obviously talking about when he and his family were brutally murdered. I am not suggesting that he went to hell or that his soul was annihilated, but you do realize that death is a side effect of being shot in the face.

Edit- it’s a little disappointing that I have to spell this out, and I know that it’s hard to convey tone on a forum so I’ll go ahead and say it- I do not enjoy spelling it out like that.
 
Hi FKC,

My two cents: admittedly, when it comes to saints recognized by an Orthodox church but not by a Catholic church, I generally am of the opinion ‘if it’s good enough for the Orthodox, then it’s good enough for me’ :D. After all, the Russian Orthodox have Apostolic succession, and the Real Presence, so why should one worry that they aren’t able to discern who are saints? (This bit about the Real Presence, apostolic succession isn’t meant to imply that the Orthodox need/want/etc. Catholic validation, I just trying, awkwardly, to may a point from a Catholic perspective :o). Personally, I have no problem praying for someone who’s Orthodox or having someone who’s Orthodox pray for me; the prayers go to the same God anyway :).

FKC, if you feel comfortable doing so, and since you have the icon anyway, why not put it in your icon corner?
P.S.: FKC, I feel that I should thank you. This thread got me looking through my grandfather’s old books for a biography of Saint Tsar Nicholas and his family. An informative, though tragic read.

AzzurriFan
 
Sixpence said:
Or is there something I’m missing here? Is western sainthood something that grants intercessory ability to a tiny select few among the church triumphant, in fact so few that the ability escapes all Orthodox Christians post-Schism. Or perhaps there really is more to what you’re doing than asking someone to pray for you?
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Anyone can intercede for someone on Earth, or in Purgatory. To be able to intercede isn’t a power, and Orthodox Christian saints can intercede for me, a Catholic. According to this, St. Sergius is recognized as a saint in the Roman Church.
You don’t have to be canonized to be a saint, you just have to “venerable” to be publicly venerated.
 
Given Our Lady of the Rosary’s warning in her Fatima appearances, it’s hard to write off Tsar Nicholas II as “weak” and not “for the people” as the satanic forces were undermining him. In the book, The Last Tsar these forces were not “grass roots” anymore than George Soros’ bought-and-paid-for MoveOn etc. is of the people. Those forces undermining Tsar Nicholas II (a great Dane) allegedly included financiers from Germany; and Freemasons from Paris. Colin Wilson’s book Rasputin and the Fall of the Romanovs shows, from Rasputin’s angle, how nefarious politics was, including factional demonization of this lusty peasant-monk. Tsar Nicholas II, may the Most High God exalt your once-great country and deliver her, with our love, to God in Christian union through the intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. “Pray the daily Rosary for peace.” --Our Lady of the Rosary, Fatima, Portugal 1917
 
futureKC123 said:
Well I have an icon of him and don’t really know if it belongs in my icon corner or not. I’m mt quite sure how I feel about praying to nonCatholic Saints.
Opinions?
Thanks,
FKC
Click to expand...
You don’t necessarily have to actively pray to a saint in your icon corner. Rather, this saint can be a source of inspiration, or cause for meditation.

Even Blessed Pope John Paul II did as much. There was a recent thread on St Gregory Palamas, a post schism Orthodox saint considered by some Catholics to be controversial. Nonetheless, Blessed Pope John Paul II meditated on the writings of this saint and found them to be a source of inspiration. St. Gregory Palamas is now commemorated by Eastern Catholic Churches, even though he was never declared a saint by the Catholic Church.
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Because the Bolsheviks (partly) killed him for his Orthodox faith. He is however no recognised saint in the Catholic Church. Only the pre-unia saints are recognised as far as I know. I wonder if St. Severus of Antioch is a recognised saint in the Roman communion since the Syriac and Coptic Catholic churches were united to Rome.
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While I fully support venerating Orthodox Saints in general, and in fact I don’t even seperate Saints in my mind by ecclesial affiliation (I consider the Catholic and Orthodox to be in schism from eachother, rather than it being a one way street), I’m not a fan of venerating Nicholas II and this post I’m quoting is an example of my reason.

He was elevated by ROCOR as a political move, a kind of slap in the face of the ROC which compromised with the Bolshevics. The former Tsar was not executed for his religion, far from it, but rather because he was a symbol for the White Army in the ongoing civil war, and he and his heirs were considered legitimate rulers of Russia by Europe. The Reds planned a public trial for him but the White Army was advancing rapidly and they didn’t want to risk his escape or rescue. He and his family were unceremoniously executed and dumped to end any political aims of restoring the monarchy… The Whites lost a powerful symbol and rallying figure, and the Reds could say that the Russia the Whites were fighting for was truly dead and buried. While his family may have been devout, they were not killed for being faithful Orthodox by any indications.

They were victims of bloody politics, and elevated in a game of bloodless politics (ROCOR was made up of significant White Army sympathizers). It’s exactly the kind of thing that makes the Witness of Saints look bad, and opens the whole practice of veneration up to criticism. That said, I’m not judging the Sainthood of the family, merely its public veneration.

Peace and God bless!
 
CatholicLife said:
There is many Eastern Catholics who venerate Orthodox Saints. There is a Ruthenian parish close to where I live that has an icon of Herman of Alaska. I personally can not venerate these people but I don’t have any problem with those who do.
Click to expand...
It is quite possible that the iconostasis was made by an orthodox-oriented company, that’s all. I also know when my church was being remodeled we gave our old iconostasis to an orthodox church restarting after a fire.
 
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