Tubal ligation

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Bkanning

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I am currently pregnant with my fifth child, and it will be my fourth c-section. My last doctor wanted to tie my tubes due to medical reasons. I resisted, but now my doctor is again concerned about the risks of future c-sections and other health issues I have, feeling that pregnancy is dangerous for me.

I feel that our family is complete, but I know I should stay open to the gift of children, but I do not really think I can physically handle another pregnancy. I have had different answers on this topic, basically I have been told that the procedure would be considered sinful by some, and one priest I really respect and consider quite loyal to the magisterium and orthodox basically told us that it is up to us when we went to him for help in clarifying the churches position. We are more confused than ever.

I do not want advice or wishy washy sentiments, but someone to tell me if the medical risks and advice of my doctor would justify a tubal ligation procedure. Is it a mortal sin no matter what, as some have said, or is it ever justified, as our priest said? We can’t seem to discern an answer for ourselves, as we were also told to do, and the catechism has us confused. Please help!
 
The Catechism is clear on this one.
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
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Direct sterilization is always a morally unacceptable act.

Congratulations on your upcoming new addition. 🙂
 
Bkanning said:
I am currently pregnant with my fifth child, and it will be my fourth c-section. My last doctor wanted to tie my tubes due to medical reasons. I resisted, but now my doctor is again concerned about the risks of future c-sections and other health issues I have, feeling that pregnancy is dangerous for me.

I feel that our family is complete, but I know I should stay open to the gift of children, but I do not really think I can physically handle another pregnancy. I have had different answers on this topic, basically I have been told that the procedure would be considered sinful by some, and one priest I really respect and consider quite loyal to the magisterium and orthodox basically told us that it is up to us when we went to him for help in clarifying the churches position. We are more confused than ever.

I do not want advice or wishy washy sentiments, but someone to tell me if the medical risks and advice of my doctor would justify a tubal ligation procedure. Is it a mortal sin no matter what, as some have said, or is it ever justified, as our priest said? We can’t seem to discern an answer for ourselves, as we were also told to do, and the catechism has us confused. Please help!
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I am very sorry for your situation…very difficult.

Thank you very much for seeking out what the Church teaches…

I can tell you with absolute certainty (and I have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville) that a tubal ligation is not moral to do. (It would be a grave matter in fact for mortal sin.)…so one may not do this… it cannot be justified (it is a contraceptive act).

I would suggest you contact the Pope Paul VI institute …they may have some medical advice …not sure if they handle this sort of thing…but they can perhaps refer you. www.popepaulvi.com they are a very solid Catholic Group faithful to the Church. (also remember NFP is there .but since there is a chance of pregnancy …one needs to think about how serious your situation is and be trained perhaps in the method that Paul VI institute does…and seek their advice…there may be a more strict method for your kind of case …again contact that group…and also there is the National Catholic Bioethics Center for ethics questions…)

With prayers

(PS: I also ran across the information that: Tubal ligation does not always prevent conception…even it were moral…)
 
In the 50’s we had a neighbor who was told the same thing as you. She had 8 c-sections. To this day I admire her for her faithfulness. Living your life in faith is not easy and sometimes it is harder for some than others. I will pray for you.
 
I would go with your priest’s advice. The good folks here have their hearts and minds in the right place, but the fact of the matter is, they’re not theological scholars or clergy. They can read and interpret CCC and encyclicals the same as everyone else, but your priest is trained to answer your questions. If you think he might be dealing with you with my sympathy, then why not go above him and have the same discussion with your bishop and see what he has to say about it? Surely you can trust your bishop to give you the right answers. Among other things, aren’t they there to counsel Catholics in need?
 
Rence said:
I would go with your priest’s advice. The good folks here have their hearts and minds in the right place, but the fact of the matter is, they’re not theological scholars or clergy. They can read and interpret CCC and encyclicals the same as everyone else, but your priest is trained to answer your questions. If you think he might be dealing with you with my sympathy, then why not go above him and have the same discussion with your bishop and see what he has to say about it? Surely you can trust your bishop to give you the right answers. Among other things, aren’t they there to counsel Catholics in need?
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Rence I know you mean well…but…

This is not correct…

It would be a grave matter for mortal sin.

(PS I do have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville this was part of my degree)

Yes people can get things wrong…but this is an absolutely certain thing taught by the Church. The Priest here was mistaken.
 
Bookcat said:
Rence I know you mean well…but…
This is not correct…
It would be a grave matter for mortal sin.
(PS I do have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville this was part of my degree)
Yes people can get things wrong…but this is an absolutely certain thing taught by the Church. The Priest here was mistaken.
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If he was, his bishop will correct it of course. Also, meeting with the bishop face to face will help her to learn what her options are and why, and will give her the benefit of a real-time discussion with someone trained to go through the CCC with her.

BKanning, try printing out the sources Bookcat is sending you to, that way you have them with you, if you choose to meet with your bishop to discuss it. Also, the diocese might be able to refer you to a counseler who is well versed at handling these types of questions.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful and straight forward answers, it is much appreciated! I do not feel like I can in good conscience go through with the procedure, we already practice NFP but will have to look into a more stringent practice of it for the future. I also feel that eliminating the procreation aspect of intimacy would do a great deal of damage to our marriage.

I take a very intellectual approach to my faith, and I just couldn’t come up with a definitive answer on the Church’s teaching on my own, there were too many loopholes being presented to me by others as valid reasons to support this procedure. The priest we consulted didn’t really provide a definitive answer either.

As far as consulting a counselor, the priest we spoke with recommended this. But we did not want help with the emotional aspects of the situation, we just wanted a definitive answer about the Church’s position on the topic, which is why we consulted a priest! We know faithful Catholics from other parishes we have lived in who have been told by priests and clergy that procedures such as vasectomies were acceptable under certain circumstances (after our fourth child half the Catholics I knew asked if we were going to have one done, talk about awkward). That is why we consulted a priest, but we ended up leaving more confused than ever as we thought he would have a straight forward answer for us.

Although the priest recommended that we pray on the issue in order to make our decision about the tubal ligation, he did ask if we had considered a vasectomy. He expressed relief when we said we would not consider that, and seemed to make a distinction between the two procedures. This has made me curious, as to why a tubal ligation could be considered (a least by him) to be morally acceptable, but a vasectomy is not. I will have to consult a higher authority in order to understand exactly what our diocese is teaching on this matter. We are fairly new to this diocese (as is our pastor), and as our Bishop’s office is over 3 hours away (we live in the deep South), so I think I will be writing a letter and making some phone calls.

Again, thank you so much for the thoughtful responses you have given us, it is greatly appreciated. God bless all of you!

Beth
 
“It would be a grave matter for mortal sin.”

Just another thought, the priest asked us why we were concerned about the issue, and my husband responded that we didn’t want to commit a sin or go against church teaching, and so we wanted to be sure we understood exactly where the church stood. The priest mentioned that if we acted out of good conscience, it would not be a grave sin, and that we would have to pray about it and come to our own decision.

So, is it still a grave sin, even if the person believes they have recieved valid counsel from a priest and made the decision to go ahead? I am not speaking about my own situation, as I believe that I must become better informed and do not take the advice from this priest as a last authority on the issue. But if a couple recieved this kind of advice and proceeded forward in good faith thinking they were in line with the church, would it still be a mortal sin for them to have this procedure?

I am just curious, and am interested in what more informed and well educated individuals have to say.
 
Bkanning said:
Thank you for the thoughtful and straight forward answers, it is much appreciated! I do not feel like I can in good conscience go through with the procedure, we already practice NFP but will have to look into a more stringent practice of it for the future. I also feel that eliminating the procreation aspect of intimacy would do a great deal of damage to our marriage.

I take a very intellectual approach to my faith, and I just couldn’t come up with a definitive answer on the Church’s teaching on my own, there were too many loopholes being presented to me by others as valid reasons to support this procedure. The priest we consulted didn’t really provide a definitive answer either.

As far as consulting a counselor, the priest we spoke with recommended this. But we did not want help with the emotional aspects of the situation, we just wanted a definitive answer about the Church’s position on the topic, which is why we consulted a priest! We know faithful Catholics from other parishes we have lived in who have been told by priests and clergy that procedures such as vasectomies were acceptable under certain circumstances (after our fourth child half the Catholics I knew asked if we were going to have one done, talk about awkward). That is why we consulted a priest, but we ended up leaving more confused than ever as we thought he would have a straight forward answer for us.

Although the priest recommended that we pray on the issue in order to make our decision about the tubal ligation, he did ask if we had considered a vasectomy. He expressed relief when we said we would not consider that, and seemed to make a distinction between the two procedures. This has made me curious, as to why a tubal ligation could be considered (a least by him) to be morally acceptable, but a vasectomy is not. I will have to consult a higher authority in order to understand exactly what our diocese is teaching on this matter. We are fairly new to this diocese (as is our pastor), and as our Bishop’s office is over 3 hours away (we live in the deep South), so I think I will be writing a letter and making some phone calls.

Again, thank you so much for the thoughtful responses you have given us, it is greatly appreciated. God bless all of you!

Beth
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Yes…both procedures would be grave matter for mortal sin for contraceptive purposes such as you were asking. (of course if there is something medically wrong with the tube…etc…then it can be removed etc…but never with a contraceptive intent …rather only to remove the damaged or dangerous part of the body…

No Priest or Bishop may advise otherwise…
 
Catholic moral teaching distinguishes between “direct” and “indirect” actions. For example, removing an ectopic pregnancy is a direct abortion and thus prohibited, but if the fallopian tube is also removed, it becomes an indirect abortion and thus allowed.

If you are concerned about following Catholic legalistic restrictions to the letter, you should go to someplace like the Pope Paul VI Institute, where they can review your exact medical condition and recommend an “indirect” procedure that will accomplish the same ends as the tubal ligation your present doctor recommends.
 
Bkanning said:
“It would be a grave matter for mortal sin.”

Just another thought, the priest asked us why we were concerned about the issue, and my husband responded that we didn’t want to commit a sin or go against church teaching, and so we wanted to be sure we understood exactly where the church stood. The priest mentioned that if we acted out of good conscience, it would not be a grave sin, and that we would have to pray about it and come to our own decision.

So, is it still a grave sin, even if the person believes they have recieved valid counsel from a priest and made the decision to go ahead? I am not speaking about my own situation, as I believe that I must become better informed and do not take the advice from this priest as a last authority on the issue. But if a couple recieved this kind of advice and proceeded forward in good faith thinking they were in line with the church, would it still be a mortal sin for them to have this procedure?

I am just curious, and am interested in what more informed and well educated individuals have to say.
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One must follow one’s **well formed **conscience. The priest left out that very critical detail. If you do not form your conscience at all, or if in forming it you ignore obvious church teaching (such as the catechism paragraph flatly stating sterilization is always wrong) then you have NOT formed your conscience well. You are morally culpable for having ignored the Church’s teaching.

Now, let me give you another scenario of the real meaning of following a well formed conscience. When Louise Brown became the first “test tube baby” the Church had no teaching on the morality of in vitro fertilization. How could they? It didn’t exist. So, infertile Catholic couples began inquiring whether they could engage in this procedure. There was NO Catholic teaching on this subject. So, in such a case, one would have to read the Church’s teachings on the marital act, procreation, children, morality, etc, and try to come to a conclusion on this. One might ask priests, who may give conflicting answers. In such a case where there isn’t a clear teaching, one must do one’s best to form the conscience with what is available and make a decision. Many Catholics made the decision to have in vitro. They did not sin in following their well formed conscience. They did the best they could with the info they had

Now, 10 years later, the Church produced Donum Vitae after a decade of studying the issue. The Church proclaimed that in vitro was intrinisically disordered-- grave matter and sinful if done with full knowledge and free will. No Catholic who reads Donum Vitae or the Catechism can claim a well formed conscience while ignoring what the Church plainly teaches and having in vitro anyway because some priest said it was ok.

See the difference?
 
Bkanning said:
“It would be a grave matter for mortal sin.”

Just another thought, the priest asked us why we were concerned about the issue, and my husband responded that we didn’t want to commit a sin or go against church teaching, and so we wanted to be sure we understood exactly where the church stood. The priest mentioned that if we acted out of good conscience, it would not be a grave sin, and that we would have to pray about it and come to our own decision.

So, is it still a grave sin, even if the person believes they have recieved valid counsel from a priest and made the decision to go ahead? I am not speaking about my own situation, as I believe that I must become better informed and do not take the advice from this priest as a last authority on the issue. But if a couple recieved this kind of advice and proceeded forward in good faith thinking they were in line with the church, would it still be a mortal sin for them to have this procedure?

I am just curious, and am interested in what more informed and well educated individuals have to say.
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One can act “in good conscience” if they are honestly mistake…but it will still be gravely harmful even though not a mortal sin…

But we have to inform our conscience…

It is of course difficult for some cause they may go to a Priest …who may be in error himself …

So if someone did not know better…went and asked a priest who was not teaching what the Church teaches regarding such acts (the couple not knowing this)…and honestly thinks the priest is telling them just what the Church teaches (they do not realize they should look further etc) then yes …subjectively they can be then “not guilty” of the mortal sin.
 
  1. When does one commit a mortal sin?
1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
  1. When does one commit a venial sin?
1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church: (read the whole…but pay particular attention to the underlined)

1859 *Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. *It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

IV. Erroneous Judgment

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793* If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him.* It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

Read these on Conscience:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5Z.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P60.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P61.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P62.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM
 
Tubal ligation is intrinsically evil because its moral object is the deprivation of the procreative meaning from marital relations. I don’t know of any legitimate moral use of tubal ligation; it is a type of direct sterilization, which is always objectively a mortal sin.

However, if the ovaries, or fallopian tubes, or uterus were diseased, any of these could be removed to directly treat the disease (the medical disorder), despite the unintended consequence of indirect sterilization.

For each and every knowingly chosen act, all three fonts of morality must be good for an act to be moral. The three fonts of morality are (1) intention, (2) moral object, (3) circumstances. If one or more fonts is bad, the act is immoral. When the moral object is bad, the act is intrinsically evil and always immoral.

Sin is moral evil; it is any word, or deed, or desire against the eternal moral law.
 
If you are up for some pretty heavy reading on this subject, you should check out Contemporary Catholic Health Care Ethics by David F. Kelly (see here), especially the chapter on The Principle of Double Effect.
 
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