Tue (Dec 8) Mass readings (Adam and Eve sin / consequences / Mary's perpetual virginity)

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**December 8, 2009**
Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary Lectionary: 689

Reading 1
Gn 3:9-15, 20

After the man, Adam, had eaten of the tree,
the LORD God called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?”
****He answered, “I heard you in the garden;
but I was afraid, because I was naked,
so I hid myself.”****Then he asked, “Who told you that you were naked?
You have eaten, then,
from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!”
***The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me
she gave me fruit from the tree, and so I ate it.”***The LORD God then asked the woman,
“Why did you do such a thing?”
The woman answered, ***“The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it.” ***

Then the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this, you shall be banned
from all the animals
and from all the wild creatures;
on your belly shall you crawl,
and dirt shall you eat
all the days of your life.
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike at your head,
while you strike at his heel.”

The man called his wife Eve,
because she became the mother of all the living.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 98:1, 2-3ab, 3cd-4


R. (1) Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done wondrous deeds;
His right hand has won victory for him,
his holy arm.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
The LORD has made his salvation known:
in the sight of the nations he has revealed his justice.

He has remembered his kindness and his faithfulness
toward the house of Israel.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
All the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation by our God.
Sing joyfully to the LORD, all you lands;
break into song; sing praise.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.

**Reading II
Eph 1:3-6, 11-12 **

Brothers and Sisters:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us in Christ
with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,
as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world,
***to be holy and without blemish before him. ***
In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ,
in accord with the favor of his will,
for the praise of the glory of his grace
that he granted us in the beloved.

In him we were also chosen,
destined in accord with the purpose of the One
who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,
so that we might exist for the praise of his glory,
we who first hoped in Christ.

Gospel
Lk 1:26-38


The angel Gabriel was sent from God
to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,
of the house of David,
and the virgin’s name was Mary.
And coming to her, he said,
***“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”***But she was greatly troubled at what was said
and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
Then the angel said to her,
“Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,
and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”
***But Mary said to the angel,
“How can this be,
since I have no relations with a man?”***And the angel said to her in reply,
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore the child to be born
will be called holy, the Son of God.
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative,
has also conceived a son in her old age,
and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
***Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.
May it be done to me according to your word.”***Then the angel departed from her.

.
*Sorry but i don’t like the story of the snake talking to Eve… kinda makes the bible look unbelievable… *

i keep believing (knowing) because of the Real Presence, so no harm done… but this story is kinda strange to me… Maybe it was just the devil speaking and the snake was there so * God used it…

We humans are always mistaking this or that phenomenon for somehting other than the devil… Hmmmm… :hmmm::coffeeread:

and maybe God punished them all because He wanted to… uh… make a statement… (the snake, that is)…

in the Gospel: Mary was obvoiusly planning on staying a virgin forever or she wouldn’t have said what she said. Then there is the miracle of Lourdes that shows us that the Immaculate conception is true…

Maybe Protestants wouldn’t have such a hard time with Mary if in this psg she had said, “How can this be since i do not PLAN on having relations with a man?”

even so, it is pretty plain because she was planning on marrying Joseph… Obvoiusly she wasn’t planning on intercourse with him… *
 
Code:
**December 8, 2009**
Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary Lectionary: 689

Reading 1
Gn 3:9-15, 20

After the man, Adam, had eaten of the tree,
the LORD God called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?”
****He answered, “I heard you in the garden;
but I was afraid, because I was naked,
so I hid myself.”****Then he asked, “Who told you that you were naked?
You have eaten, then,
from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!”
***The man replied, “The woman whom you put here with me
she gave me fruit from the tree, and so I ate it.”***The LORD God then asked the woman,
“Why did you do such a thing?”
The woman answered, ***“The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it.” ***

Then the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this, you shall be banned
from all the animals
and from all the wild creatures;
on your belly shall you crawl,
and dirt shall you eat
all the days of your life.
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will strike at your head,
while you strike at his heel.”

The man called his wife Eve,
because she became the mother of all the living.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 98:1, 2-3ab, 3cd-4


R. (1) Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done wondrous deeds;
His right hand has won victory for him,
his holy arm.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
The LORD has made his salvation known:
in the sight of the nations he has revealed his justice.

He has remembered his kindness and his faithfulness
toward the house of Israel.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.
All the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation by our God.
Sing joyfully to the LORD, all you lands;
break into song; sing praise.
R. Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvelous deeds.

**Reading II
Eph 1:3-6, 11-12 **

Brothers and Sisters:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us in Christ
with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,
as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world,
***to be holy and without blemish before him. ***
In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ,
in accord with the favor of his will,
for the praise of the glory of his grace
that he granted us in the beloved.

In him we were also chosen,
destined in accord with the purpose of the One
who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,
so that we might exist for the praise of his glory,
we who first hoped in Christ.

Gospel
Lk 1:26-38


The angel Gabriel was sent from God
to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph,
of the house of David,
and the virgin’s name was Mary.
And coming to her, he said,
***“Hail, full of grace! The Lord is with you.”***But she was greatly troubled at what was said
and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
Then the angel said to her,
“Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.

Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son,
and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever,
and of his Kingdom there will be no end.”
***But Mary said to the angel,
“How can this be,
since I have no relations with a man?”***And the angel said to her in reply,
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore the child to be born
will be called holy, the Son of God.
And behold, Elizabeth, your relative,
has also conceived a son in her old age,
and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
for nothing will be impossible for God.”
***Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord.
May it be done to me according to your word.”***Then the angel departed from her.

.
*Sorry but i don’t like the story of the snake talking to Eve… kinda makes the bible look unbelievable… *

i keep believing (knowing) because of the Real Presence, so no harm done… but this story is kinda strange to me… Maybe it was just the devil speaking and the snake was there so * God used it…

We humans are always mistaking this or that phenomenon for somehting other than the devil… Hmmmm… :hmmm::coffeeread:

and maybe God punished them all because He wanted to… uh… make a statement… (the snake, that is)…

in the Gospel: Mary was obvoiusly planning on staying a virgin forever or she wouldn’t have said what she said. Then there is the miracle of Lourdes that shows us that the Immaculate conception is true…

Maybe Protestants wouldn’t have such a hard time with Mary if in this psg she had said, “How can this be since i do not PLAN on having relations with a man?”

even so, it is pretty plain because she was planning on marrying Joseph… Obvoiusly she wasn’t planning on intercourse with him… *
How is it plain?? Scripture says that Joseph didn’t have relations with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born. It never eludes to her saying that she never planned on having intercourse with a man that she was going to be married to. It just doesn’t say that.
 
Great question Justy 90. I suggest you do some research on the word until and translations from Greek to English.

Jesus said, “I will be with you until the end of age.” So does that mean at the end of age he is no longer with us? Of course not! When you translate languages sometimes you are forced to use what word BEST suits another. In this case, the word until in Greek does not mean what the word until in English as we know it.
 
If she did have PLANS to have intercourse, she would probably have assumed that once they were married, then she would concieve the son of man. However, since she had no plans, she was confused!
 
Also, the specific terms used to describe Mary as a maiden, handmaid, virgin, etc. were all used at that time to specifically address those who were consecrated virgins–ie, had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In the Gospels, it never speaks of Mary’s betrothal until after the annunciation (if I recall correctly…) and the noncanonical gospel concerning the life of Joseph also implies that the betrothal happened after the annunciation, but before Joseph knew Mary was pregnant.
 
Great question Justy 90. I suggest you do some research on the word until and translations from Greek to English.

Jesus said, “I will be with you until the end of age.” So does that mean at the end of age he is no longer with us? Of course not! When you translate languages sometimes you are forced to use what word BEST suits another. In this case, the word until in Greek does not mean what the word until in English as we know it.
That sounds pretty sketchy to me. If I’m not going to work until I take a shower, then you can bet that sometime after my shower, I will show up for work. Not that complicated, especially when Scripture mentions the sibblings of Christ on several occasions.
 
If she did have PLANS to have intercourse, she would probably have assumed that once they were married, then she would concieve the son of man. However, since she had no plans, she was confused!
Lots of assuming there. Just read the text.
 
Not that complicated, especially when Scripture mentions the sibblings of Christ on several occasions.
And tons of people on college campuses every day refer to people in no way related to them as “bro,” and the terms “brother” and “sister” are culturally important in the African American community for describing close kinships where no filial ties exist.

Tradition* also holds that Joseph was previously married before Mary, Ever Virgin, so Jesus would have had siblings, but they would have had a different mother.

It’s not that complicated, especially when you can properly contextualize scripture and remove any modern English-language bias from the language. 👍

*Small-“T” tradition, not Tradition. It’s not canon, it’s not dogma. But tradition exists where Joseph was previously married and had anywhere from two to six children before his marriage to Mary.
 
How is it plain?? Scripture says that Joseph didn’t have relations with Mary UNTIL Jesus was born. It never eludes to her saying that she never planned on having intercourse with a man that she was going to be married to. It just doesn’t say that.
i don’t recall my Bible saying that but even if it did… there is also a passage that says some woman didn’t have any more children until the day she died…

so uh… did she have some after she died???
 
If she did have PLANS to have intercourse, she would probably have assumed that once they were married, then she would concieve the son of man. However, since she had no plans, she was confused!
and she’s not the only one… i am confused by this post… :confused:

she was planning on being a virgin forever… THAT is why she was suprised by what the angel said…
 
That sounds pretty sketchy to me. If I’m not going to work until I take a shower, then you can bet that sometime after my shower, I will show up for work. Not that complicated, especially when Scripture mentions the sibblings of Christ on several occasions.
there is no word in Hebrew for cousins so cousins are called brothers…
 
i don’t recall my Bible saying that but even if it did… there is also a passage that says some woman didn’t have any more children until the day she died…

so uh… did she have some after she died???
very weak argument. In the text of Scripture, there is no suggestion that Mary didn’t have a normal marriage with Joseph. On several occasions Jesus’ siblings are mentioned many times by name.
 
That sounds pretty sketchy to me. If I’m not going to work until I take a shower, then you can bet that sometime after my shower, I will show up for work. Not that complicated, especially when Scripture mentions the sibblings of Christ on several occasions.
So, according to your logic, if you take a shower you must go to work after? If that’s so, then, again according to you, I can NOT take a shower, but then, for whatever reason, decide to stay home?
 
very weak argument. In the text of Scripture, there is no suggestion that Mary didn’t have a normal marriage with Joseph. On several occasions Jesus’ siblings are mentioned many times by name.
i don’t care what you think scripture says or doesn’t say…

the Church says Mary was a perpetual virgin and that settles it.

we can either trust the Church or we cannot… If we can trust Her we can trust about everrything…
 
very weak argument again. There were several ways to make distinction between the two.
you say i have weak arguments??

you have the weakest of all because you are arguing with Holy Mother Church
 
Matthew 2:25 says “but she remained a virgin until her son was born…”
Luke 2:7 says, “She gave birth to her first child…”

Two words to look at 1. until and 2. first.
To me it means that after Jesus was born her and Joseph did have intercourse and the first child means that she had other children after Jesus was born.
If not I believe it would have said, “but she remained a virgin ever after her son was born…”
and “She gave birth to her only child…”
But it doesn’t say that.
 
Great question Justy 90. I suggest you do some research on the word until and translations from Greek to English.

Jesus said, “I will be with you until the end of age.” So does that mean at the end of age he is no longer with us? Of course not! When you translate languages sometimes you are forced to use what word BEST suits another. In this case, the word until in Greek does not mean what the word until in English as we know it.
Translations from Greek to English, also Hebrew to English.

Until:Greek, heos, until. of uncert., aff; a conjuct., prep. and adv. of continuance, until {of time and place} — even {until, unto}, {as} far {as}, how long, {in-} til {-l}, {hither-, un-, up} to, while{-s}.

Until: Greek, mechri, until, to the point of. as far asm i.e. up to a certain point {as a prep. of extent (denoting the terminus, whereas, to the space of time or place interventing) or a conjuct.}-- till, {un-} to, till.

Until: Greek, eis, to or unto. a primary prep.; to or unti {indicating the point reached or entered}, of place, time, or {fig.} purpose {result. etc.}; also in adv. Phrases;–{abundant-} ly, against, among, as ,at {back-} ward, before, by conderning, + continual,+ far more exceeding, for {intent, purpose}, fore,+ forth, in {amount, at, unto, -so much that, to}, to the intent that,+ of one mind,+ never, of, {up-} on, + perish, + set at one again, {so} taht, therefore {-unto}, throughout, till, to {be, the end, -ward}, {here-} until {-to}. ward, {where-} fore, with, Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs, {etc} expressing motion {lit. or fig.}

Until: Greek, achri. until or up to. {through the idea of a terminus}; {of time} until or {of place} up to:–as far as, for, in {-to}, till, {even, un-} to, until. while.

Until: Hebrew, ad. as far {long} as; during; until. and, at, for, {hither-} to, on. till, {un-} to, until, within.
 
there is no word in Hebrew for cousins so cousins are called brothers…
Depends on which word is used for cousin’s/brother’s

Hebrew: brother’s, yebemeth: Dead brother’s widow, i.e. sister-in-law.

Hebrew: brother’s, ach: brother. relative. member.

Hebrew: brother’s, dowd: beloved, friend. relative.

Greek: brother’s, adelphos: brother.
 
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