Turing Test and Dark Magic

[Michael19682]

For those unfamiliar with the Turing Test, it is tersely described by wikipedia and known to computer scientists as a test of the ability of a machine to exhibit intelligence.

I have noticed on these forums that there are certain ‘guests’ or otherwise who exhibit posts that are correct enough if we apply the rule of charity, but that simply seem devoid of the Catholic spirit. Usually these are declared Catholics or Protestants in conversion - but that is my observation, and not a studied fact of any kind that I know of.

I wonder if anyone has ever had the thought, as have I, that some of them might not be genuine Catholics or Protestants in conversion. They display characteristics of their religion in that they use the doctrine of their declared religions and cite its non scriptural sources copiously when making posts and replies to others.

Could their actions be a kind of Turin test on the Church, i.e., to see if the true Catholics of this forum will be able to discern ‘non-Catholicity’ in the replies given. I understand that these people are not digital machines per se, but I believe it is a question worth considering. How does one recognize the spirit of God in the words of a human? In Chapter 11 of 2 Corinithians, Paul says that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. If Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, I wonder if his would be followers on earth would masquerade as Catholics or Protestants in conversion on this forum. Or even as any member of any religion without it being the truth. E.g. a declared Jewish member of the forum who is not Jewish.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why! What is the gain for them, what is their motive if carrying out such a test of Catholics?

 

[JDaniel]

For those unfamiliar with the Turing Test, it is tersely described by wikipedia and known to computer scientists as a test of the ability of a machine to exhibit intelligence.

I have noticed on these forums that there are certain ‘guests’ or otherwise who exhibit posts that are correct enough if we apply the rule of charity, but that simply seem devoid of the Catholic spirit. Usually these are declared Catholics or Protestants in conversion - but that is my observation, and not a studied fact of any kind that I know of.

I wonder if anyone has ever had the thought, as have I, that some of them might not be genuine Catholics or Protestants in conversion. They display characteristics of their religion in that they use the doctrine of their declared religions and cite its non scriptural sources copiously when making posts and replies to others.

Could their actions be a kind of Turin test on the Church, i.e., to see if the true Catholics of this forum will be able to discern ‘non-Catholicity’ in the replies given. I understand that these people are not digital machines per se, but I believe it is a question worth considering. How does one recognize the spirit of God in the words of a human? In Chapter 11 of 2 Corinthians, Paul says that Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. If Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, I wonder if his would be followers on earth would masquerade as Catholics or Protestants in conversion on this forum. Or even as any member of any religion without it being the truth. E.g. a declared Jewish member of the forum who is not Jewish.

For the life of me I can’t figure out why! What is the gain for them, what is their motive if carrying out such a test of Catholics?

Michael:

You would not be the first to ask these questions. But, that said, this is not a good subject for discussion. It is the stated purpose of this forum to bring the non-Catholic into Catholicity hospitably, if possible and without disparagement. And, to tell the truth, it is often difficult - even for a discerning Catholic - to fully practice Catholic-ness.

We are to give the benefit of the doubt first. After that, I don’t know. Perhaps ignore the RINO (religious-in-name-only)? Otherwise, people like you are depended upon to help us keep to the straight and narrow.

Welcome aboard! And,
God bless,
jd

 

[Michael19682]

Michael:

You would not be the first to ask these questions. But, that said, this is not a good subject for discussion. It is the stated purpose of this forum to bring the non-Catholic into Catholicity hospitably, if possible and without disparagement. And, to tell the truth, it is often difficult - even for a discerning Catholic - to fully practice Catholic-ness.

We are to give the benefit of the doubt first. After that, I don’t know. Perhaps ignore the RINO (religious-in-name-only)? Otherwise, people like you are depended upon to help us keep to the straight and narrow.

Welcome aboard! And,
God bless,
jd

Thank you jd. Your reply helps more than abit. I suppose if we do as you suggest and give the benefit of doubt, then we are actually applying charity and forgiveness if we are being duped intentionally, or otherwise. I suppose the question is as you also suggest - and here we veer into a spirtual matter that is more inward - if we apply charity and forgive the other, does this mean that we must surrender to their words as an outward manifestation of God’s word? This latter question could apply to any disagreement of opinion between any two people?

Thank you for the blessing!

Peace-

 

[JDaniel]

Thank you jd. Your reply helps more than abit. I suppose if we do as you suggest and give the benefit of doubt, then we are actually applying charity and forgiveness if we are being duped intentionally, or otherwise. I suppose the question is as you also suggest - and here we veer into a spirtual matter that is more inward - if we apply charity and forgive the other, does this mean that we must surrender to their words as an outward manifestation of God’s word? This latter question could apply to any disagreement of opinion between any two people?

Thank you for the blessing!

Peace-

Michael:

I don’t think so. I intend to be as vocal as possible in attempting to refute the non-theist. But, that’s going to take tremendous energy, just to properly phrase our arguments. Nevertheless, I sometimes get impatient.

Again, God bless,
jd

 

[Michael19682]

Michael:

I don’t think so. I intend to be as vocal as possible in attempting to refute the non-theist. But, that’s going to take tremendous energy, just to properly phrase our arguments. Nevertheless, I sometimes get impatient.

Again, God bless,
jd

jd,

Can surrender be in the heart (inward), while yet the mouth expresses doubt in the form of a question? Both Matthew and Mark tell that the death of Jesus asked a question as his final words of surrender on the cross. Luke says he commends his spirit to his father, and John says he said it is finished. Does these sayings belong in our discussion…?

I don’t mean that we should doubt God at every turn, or that Jesus ever doubted him. But asking God why he abandoned him to me either expresses doubt as to the purpose of it all, or else was something Jesus somehow wanted his disciples to ask when they die. I’ve worked in hospital and heard people on occasion when they died. (Never saw a death that I recall). I don’t know of any at all who outwardly questioned God like that.

thanks again for the continued blessings, jd

 

[JDaniel]

jd,

Can surrender be in the heart (inward), while yet the mouth expresses doubt in the form of a question? Both Matthew and Mark tell that the death of Jesus asked a question as his final words of surrender on the cross. Luke says he commends his spirit to his father, and John says he said it is finished. Does these sayings belong in our discussion…?

I don’t mean that we should doubt God at every turn, or that Jesus ever doubted him. But asking God why he abandoned him to me either expresses doubt as to the purpose of it all, or else was something Jesus somehow wanted his disciples to ask when they die. I’ve worked in hospital and heard people on occasion when they died. (Never saw a death that I recall). I don’t know of any at all who outwardly questioned God like that.

thanks again for the continued blessings, jd

Michael:

I’ve had a similar background: four summers as an emergency medical technician, and one year in an Osteopathic Hospital, along with an association with a Heart Institute. I’ve had people die literally in my arms. And you are right, I’ve not heard such doubt either. But, what might it mean?

You gave two hints, I think. Remember, our current Pope is encouraging all of us to fully appreciate that Christ was both: fully God and fully man. As fully man, and considering the circumstances, Christ’s utterances are perhaps quite normal, and may tell us that even He had doubts (while in the form of a man). On the other hand, perhaps He wanted His Disciples to consider those questions while they were alive. The Church admits that men and women have “dark episodes,” or periods of doubt. But, such do not mean that we are separated from God. It means that we are fully human, too.

God bless,
jd

 

[Michael19682]

Michael:

I’ve had a similar background: four summers as an emergency medical technician, and one year in an Osteopathic Hospital, along with an association with a Heart Institute. I’ve had people die literally in my arms. And you are right, I’ve not heard such doubt either. But, what might it mean?

You gave two hints, I think. Remember, our current Pope is encouraging all of us to fully appreciate that Christ was both: fully God and fully man. As fully man, and considering the circumstances, Christ’s utterances are perhaps quite normal, and may tell us that even He had doubts (while in the form of a man). On the other hand, perhaps He wanted His Disciples to consider those questions while they were alive. The Church admits that men and women have “dark episodes,” or periods of doubt. But, such do not mean that we are separated from God. It means that we are fully human, too.

God bless,
jd

jd,
I’m amazed by your answer. God bless you as well, jd.

A extraneous quick comment(
I almost see in your description “dark episodes” a parallel in the desert experience of Jesus, when he was to be tempted. Doubt can arise from temptation, and vice versa, I suppose.

A speculation(
The abandonment Jesus experienced was not separation from his Father, yet it was because he said so in his question to God. He called it abandonment.

A question(
It seems you have said that even if we feel abandoned in spirit as Jesus did, we are not in fact separated from God by virtue of the fact that we are human. We are saved by our humanity, of which Jesus partook. And, though Jesus asked God why he abandoned him, God does not reveal his answer to Jesus to us in scripture. We believe he rose from the dead, in fulfillment of scripture, but at that moment of his death on the cross, it was between him and God?

 

[bmullins]

I think that likely there are many people who are here that are genuine in their conversion experience, and are attempting to be loving. We have to realize that many (not all) of the Protestant denominations encourage their members to treat people with quite a bit of contempt and anger. Because everyone else is a ‘sinner’ and God hates the ‘sinner’, we must hate the sinner too is all too often the attitude. Even when someone finds God’s one true Church, it takes time to get the mind and heart back into God’s loving embrace.

There is also the possibility that some are not intending on converting or even interested in it, and simply use the designation as a way to come here to argue or ask questions in a way to undermine the church. Scott Hahn in his books talks about a moment in which he ripped his grandmothers rosary apart, letting the bids fall to the floor as he thanked God for letting her die to free her from the Catholic church. Look how far he has come.

I do say this, if any of my interactions (as one with the particular designation listed above) seem uncharitable or out of the love of Christ, please bring it to my attention. I am not above reprimand or suggestion, and definitely want to know if I am not sharing in charity and truth.

 

[bmullins]

I also wanted to share another story from a local priest. He gave it in one of his homilies and I think it speaks well of this very thing (how to see the true spirit of Christ):

When he was a seminarian he was assigned to work at a food shelter in the inner city. His job was to go around and talk to people, encourage them, work with them on their faith, and even just give them a friendly face so they might see some love in the room while getting their coffee/meal. One morning he noticed a fellow sitting very far from everyone else. He walked over to the man and tried to strike up conversation.

Simple good mornings and hellos elicited nothing more than a grunt or nod of the head. So he sat there next to the fellow in silence for a few minutes before trying again. He started to say something and this dirty, gritty, homeless man turned to him with cold eyes and said "I don’t want none of yer religion. I don’t want none of your words. I just want my coffee. Leave me the hell alone.’

Our priest then looked up at us and said, “Jesus was in a bad mood that morning.”

His point is, even the ones who seem not to be kind, charitable, and completely filled with the spirit of God are still in God’s image. We are to treat everyone and think of everyone as if God is in them, even the ones who are hateful and uncharitable. We should at all times try to look past their short comings, and instead try to find something beautiful there… that glimmer of hope and love that is in them and maybe not fully developed.

We also have to realize that each and every person walks at a different speed. Some start further away too. While what we see may be a rough, crass, and crude person… they might be miles from where they started… and they aren’t quite where they are going either.

 

[Michael19682]

I think that likely there are many people who are here that are genuine in their conversion experience, and are attempting to be loving. We have to realize that many (not all) of the Protestant denominations encourage their members to treat people with quite a bit of contempt and anger. Because everyone else is a ‘sinner’ and God hates the ‘sinner’, we must hate the sinner too is all too often the attitude. Even when someone finds God’s one true Church, it takes time to get the mind and heart back into God’s loving embrace.

There is also the possibility that some are not intending on converting or even interested in it, and simply use the designation as a way to come here to argue or ask questions in a way to undermine the church. Scott Hahn in his books talks about a moment in which he ripped his grandmothers rosary apart, letting the bids fall to the floor as he thanked God for letting her die to free her from the Catholic church. Look how far he has come.

I do say this, if any of my interactions (as one with the particular designation listed above) seem uncharitable or out of the love of Christ, please bring it to my attention. I am not above reprimand or suggestion, and definitely want to know if I am not sharing in charity and truth.

Not at all bmullins. I do get frustrated by some of the comments I get on occasion, but am increasingly open to discuss any matter and strive like you to be civil and charitable. In fact, I am sorrowful that I used that designation above in such a way. Please accept my forgiveness. I was raised in my formidable years to view Protestantism as the basis of American behavioral science, which holds there is a “hollow organism” human, devoid of spirit. That is exactly what a machine like a computer is. Psychology had been both the blessing and bane of my existence. This is where my confusion and ignorance comes from. You didn’t, but you would have been completely justified to chastise me for my post.