Turn deserts green to combat climate change and save Florida!

[Calliso]

Good point, as the Arctic Ice melts there should be virtually zero ocean level rise because…exactly as you said…it is ice floating on water!

The Greenland Ice Pack is different because it is land based.

The West Antarctic Ice Sheet is also different because the base of the WAIS is below sea level but the altitude of that shelf is so high that it is estimated that ocean levels could rise by 5 meters if it collapsed rapidly for some reason…perhaps an earth quake, tsunami or significant alteration in ocean currents.

For the record the danger months for the WAIS to melt would be January and February, the summer in the southern hemisphere…obviously we made it through the danger period for 2012!

Isaiah 30:26

The I think those ice sheets are melting but no we donlt have to worry about them suddenly melting over just a few monthes. We are talking minimum decades centuries or more is more likely. And that is still a pretty quick rate of melting but its not going to happen over a few monthes or years.

 

[Calliso]

Were the massive ice sheets to suddenly be removed from Greenland and Antartica, I wouldn’t be as concerned for the sea level as I would be tectonic activity.

Well yes if they were removed suddenly perhaps but thats not happening. Well of course there is always the possiblity that eventually the WAIS will collasped. But not likely any time super soon. I mean its not like just any day the entire thing is suddenly going to collaspe you know?

 

[DennisTate]

The I think those ice sheets are melting but no we donlt have to worry about them suddenly melting over just a few monthes. We are talking minimum decades centuries or more is more likely. And that is still a pretty quick rate of melting but its not going to happen over a few monthes or years.

You are probably correct Calliso…I read a statistic that the growth of the ice in the central region of Antarctica is a major reason why we have not seen significant ocean level rise despite the amount of melting in Greenland and the world’s glaciers:

Graham Hancock: "Let us consider Antarctica for a moment.
We have already seen that it is big. It has a land area of 5.5
million square miles, and is presently covered by something in excess
of seven million cubic miles of ice weighing an estimated 19
quadrillion tons (19 followed by 15 zeros). What worries the
theorists of earth-crust displacement is that this vast ice-cap is
remorselessly increasing in size and weight:'at the rate of 293 cubic
miles of ice each year–almost as much as if Lake Ontario were frozen
solidly annually and added to it.// (Graham Hancock, Fingerprints of
the Gods, page 480)

 

[DennisTate]

Well yes if they were removed suddenly perhaps but thats not happening. Well of course there is always the possiblity that eventually the WAIS will collasped. But not likely any time super soon. I mean its not like just any day the entire thing is suddenly going to collaspe you know?

Yes, it is astonishing how quickly land can bounce upward once a large portion of the ice on top of it melts!

This is one of the danger factors for what is happening in Greenland. The ice does not have to actually melt to be dangerous…all that has to happen is for it to crack and slide. Melted water is building up under the Greenland Ice Pack and we don’t know how quickly large formerly land based chunks can begin to slide out to sea.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144011.htm
New Melt Record for Greenland Ice Sheet: ‘Exceptional’ Season Stretched Up to 50 Days Longer Than Average

articles.cnn.com/2010-08-07/world/greenland.ice.island_1_ice-shelf-ice-island-canadian-ice-service?_s=PM:WORLD
Massive ice island breaks off Greenland
GREENLAND

August 07, 2010

 

[DennisTate]

As I understand it Antartic sea ice is increasing but land ice is decreasing. Then there is melting on greenland as well. Though as I understand it serious sea level rise probably wonlt be a concern for quite some time.

Calliso, it is wonderful to run into somebody who as researched this topic to this level…yes the central region of Antarctic ice is certainly growing!

Here is the link into Carl Cantrell’s original article that I quoted in the opening post…as you can easily tell he is certainly not what you would term a left wing thinker!

hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/globwarm.html
Global Warming II

Rain water running off of cooler soil will decrease the heating effect on our oceans and our planet crusts which will decrease catastrophic storm activities for other areas and seismic activity for the entire planet. Also, returning more ocean water to the surface and aquifers of our continents will lower the sea levels providing more usable land for us to farm and build on.

With cooler desert areas and increasing vegetation, less water will evaporate from our deserts increasing the amount of surface water even more and increasing the amount of vegetation and animal life by huge amounts because deserts currently take up more than 20% of our land surface. Populations will be able to spread out and there will be less competition for existing land areas.

(Carl Cantrell)

 

[vz71]

Personally I am a Theist and I believe that Isaiah’s source for information was even better than Dr. James Hansen!

drbo.org/chapter/27035.htm

I trust God to know how best to control the climate more then I do man.

 

[vz71]

Well yes if they were removed suddenly perhaps but thats not happening. Well of course there is always the possiblity that eventually the WAIS will collasped. But not likely any time super soon. I mean its not like just any day the entire thing is suddenly going to collaspe you know?

That depends on the alarmist you speak with.

 

[DennisTate]

Antarctica and Greenland both have land based ice that could melt and cause the sea levels to rise. It would require at least an 8-10°C rise in temperature for Greenland’s ice sheets to begin to melt, and much more for Antarctica. If they melted entirely it would require extreme increases in global temperature and much time, probably centuries, at the least. So even if we had the most extreme warming predicted by the most extreme global warmer it would take hundreds of years to see the flooding they predict, instead of it happening overnight as they say.

But, increases to the sea level are continual, and always have been. There are many places around the globe where we can find man made structures off the coast that were once above water.

Interesting post White Sheep!

Yes, it is pretty amazing how many ancient cities seem to be under sea water at this time.

On the other hand you may want to take a look at some of the articles that I just posted here regarding how the melting season in Greenland was fifty days longer in 2010 and certainly no extreme temperature rise such as you stated was need was responsible!

One of the factors that is increasing the rapidity of the melt is that as less permanent ice is there in the Arctic a higher percentage of the suns rays make it to the oceans! When the Arctic Ice Sheet was larger they were reflected back out into space!

 

[DennisTate]

I trust God to know how best to control the climate more then I do man.

True but God did tell us that we humans have been given astonishing productive capability that can be directed in either a beneficial or destructive way depending on how much we pray for our political leaders and how much they are being guided by God!

Genesis 11:6

And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Ecclesiastes 10:19

A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all [things].**

Proverbs 21:1 ¶ The king’s heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[vz71]

True but God did tell us that we humans have been given astonishing productive capability that can be directed in either a beneficial or destructive way depending on how much we pray for our political leaders and how much they are being guided by God!

I have faith that our science will eventually allow us to understand the climate and all of the factors thereof.
And we can tinker toward our benefit without causing unexpected and harmful consequences.

In spite of the best intentions of our environment worshipping friends, that day has not yet come.

We should not tinker with what we do not understand.

 

[PeterGStanley]

And in the desert where are you going to get all the water to do this that would be needed ?

 

[DennisTate]

On that note I would like to submit a prayer request for a man I met through the internet from Bangladesh who sent me a truly interesting and powerful document two weeks ago. His nation is especially vulnerable to rising ocean levels.

zauberkugel.blogspot.ca/2012/04/cosmic-therapy-universal-solution-for.html
COSMIC THERAPY The Universal Solution For Freedom, Peace and Justice in the World
by Dr. Fazlul Islam. He introduced me to a prophecy apparently from the Qur’an that the Islamic nations would be turned green before the resurrection!

…
This message posted to an Islamic group February 27, 2012 has the potential to utterly transform the relationship between the Islamic world and the western democratic nations!

facebook.com/pages/scientific-miracles-of-islam/136917379667127

"scientific miracles of islam
Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) spoke very carefully about a scientific fact realized by scientists few years ago. He said ( God will not held day of resurrection unless Arab land returns greens and rivers again ) [Narrated by Muslim.]

scientifically, it was proved that one day the Arabian peninsula was full of greens and rivers as satellite photos confirm that there are buried rivers under the sand of Arab land , one of the great scientists of the American space agency (NASA) says that the taken photos for the desert had shown that one day this area was covered with rivers and lakes like Europe and one day in the future it will back again like the past."

 

[DennisTate]

I have faith that our science will eventually allow us to understand the climate and all of the factors thereof.
And we can tinker toward our benefit without causing unexpected and harmful consequences.

In spite of the best intentions of our environment worshipping friends, that day has not yet come.

We should not tinker with what we do not understand.

Certainly this is a well thought out answer vz71. I admit that the way that major companies are approaching the production of food we have good reason to be skeptical. I watched two documentaries The Future of Food and Food Inc that were pretty scary!

It is interesting that on a per capita basis Israel led the world in desalination of ocean water, planting trees and turning desert areas green. They also are the only nation that has experienced cooling in their climate!

 

[DennisTate]

And in the desert where are you going to get all the water to do this that would be needed ?

The Sahara Forest Project operates only near the ocean so they rely on desalination of salt water!

 

[manualman]

I wonder if Mr. Cantrell has priced up the cost of a regional desalinization facility for irrigation. I suspect the reason it has never been done is the lack of available freight trains full of cash it would take to pay for it.

What would a green desert need in water supply? I’d guess around 1 inch of irrigation per week. That’s 27,156 gallons per week per acre of land. Let’s start just building one moderately size oasis, say 1 square mile (640 acres). A p(name removed by moderator)oint compared to the size of the Sahara. Our insignificant oasis will drink up 17.4 million gallons of water per week.

Desalinization is not cheap. I’m pretty sure we could spend the entire annual economy of earth on this and not green up more than a tiny fraction of the Sahara. I might just prefer Al Gore to this guy!

 

[DennisTate]

I wonder if Mr. Cantrell has priced up the cost of a regional desalinization facility for irrigation. I suspect the reason it has never been done is the lack of available freight trains full of cash it would take to pay for it.

What would a green desert need in water supply? I’d guess around 1 inch of irrigation per week. That’s 27,156 gallons per week per acre of land. Let’s start just building one moderately size oasis, say 1 square mile (640 acres). A p(name removed by moderator)oint compared to the size of the Sahara. Our insignificant oasis will drink up 17.4 million gallons of water per week.

Desalinization is not cheap. I’m pretty sure we could spend the entire annual economy of earth on this and not green up more than a tiny fraction of the Sahara. I might just prefer Al Gore to this guy!

You present some valid points Manualman but you should remember to compare whatever it costs to turn portions of desert green with the cost of building dikes and levees and dams to hold back a rising ocean.

Here is an estimate for the USA presented in 1997 for merely a one meter rise!

EPA study estimates that a one meter rise inundates 7000 sq mi of dry land, 50-80% of U.S. wetlands, and costs over $100 billion in the United States alone.

papers.risingsea.net/Holding/NRJ.html

 

[manualman]

OK, we should consider that. Reverse osmosis is likely the most economical desalinization method and might be doable on a large scale for $0.10 or so a gallon.

Based on the above, I calculate that if you spend that $100 Billion EVERY YEAR, you can adequately irrigate about 1,100 acres. Still a drop in the Sahara bucket.

It’s a cool idea, but we’re going to need cold fusion first!

 

[DennisTate]

OK, we should consider that. Reverse osmosis is likely the most economical desalinization method and might be doable on a large scale for $0.10 or so a gallon.

Based on the above, I calculate that if you spend that $100 Billion EVERY YEAR, you can adequately irrigate about 1,100 acres. Still a drop in the Sahara bucket.

It’s a cool idea, but we’re going to need cold fusion first!

Manualman, you might be right because I am no expert but I have read a lot about this Sahara Forest Project and from the PDF file on their home page I have gotten the impression that their idea of using mirrors to concentrate the suns rays is in a whole other league than the traditional reverse osmosis desalination techniques?!

You are onto something though because it is indeed ultimately fusion reactions powering this process!

saharaforestproject.com/

Click on Download the presentation here

The agreement was signed by CEO Khalifa A. Al-Sowaidi of Qafco, CEO Jørgen Ole Haslestad of Yara International and CEO Joakim Hauge of The Sahara Forest Project AS. The estimated cost for the Pilot Plant is 5.3 million USD. Qafco and Yara Interna- tional will provide the funding. The parties have already started the preparations, and are on schedule to reach the target of having a fully operational Pilot Plant by December 2012.

(page 4 of presentation)

If you had an extra 5.3 million at your disposal Manualman, would you invest it in a project that you thought was unrealistic?

 

[manualman]

If you had an extra 5.3 million at your disposal Manualman, would you invest it in a project that you thought was unrealistic?

No, not if all I had was 5.3M for research grants.

But if I had a few billion to use for research funding, such a thing might qualify as a small portion of it. Interesting.

 

[DennisTate]

No, not if all I had was 5.3M for research grants.

But if I had a few billion to use for research funding, such a thing might qualify as a small portion of it. Interesting.

An excellent point Manualman!

This reminds me of how Sir Richard Branson came up with the Virgin Earth Proposal back in 2007! He offered a $25 million award for somebody to come up with the design for a device that could be used to remove one billion tons of carbon from the atmosphere annually!

I actually applied for the award but stated that the device had already been invented…it was the tree! Bamboo is a species that has been used with a high rate of success by the nation of China in the Gobi Desert.

The project has been termed the Green Wall of China!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Wall_of_China